Question for our Christian visitors
Offline Most Christians claim that Jesus fulfilled the law of the Old Testiment and therefore they are no longer under it. They claim to now be under grace. If that true then why do you get so upset when someone tries to remove dispalys of the Ten Commandments form public places like courthouses or schools?
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful. - Seneca
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Offline I am explaining the difference between your question "how do I know that the Bible IS the word of God', and what I see, that 'the Bible contains the word of God'. For example,
Deu 24:1 When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give [it] in her hand, and send her out of his house.
Was this God's law, or the law of Moses?
Mat 19:7 - 19:8 They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away? He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.
Moses allowed divorce, because of the hardness of the peoples hearts.
Jhn 8:5 - 8:7 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou? This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with [his] finger wrote on the ground, [as though he heard them not]. So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
Did Jesus go against the Law of God or the law of Moses?
Which laws are the laws of God and which laws are the laws of Moses? How do you tell the difference?
The difference is that Christianity was not a religion at this time.
Every religion has a beginning. This still isn't unique, at all.
These people knew Jesus. They ate with him, walked with him and listened to him for years. They had ample time to judge wether or not he was a flake.
How do you know that?
Because they give these reasons in their books. I did not make them up.
Do you have any evidence other than human testimony inside a compilation of religious scriptures?
My evidence,
What evidence?
because I was not there physically, is to look at the effects these events had on their surroundings.
What effects?
If, however, they had the ability to perform supernatural events, I might follow to see If their words match what I understand to be the will of God. I would never put my flesh in jepordy without proof (that satisfies myself) that there claims must be true. It is unnatural not to love self, or life. (I know that many these days kill themselves due to depression, and in days past due to honor, but never did they follow something they know to be false, just because they wanted to die.)
Again, people in other religions also die for their beliefs. Why do you subscribe to this religion instead of another one?
Again, to go against what one believes, and give up their lives for a cause that has not been taught to them from infancy, or for a man which they knew personally and had an opportunity to determine the truthfulness of his teachings and the power of his words,
How do you know that?
to me this is different.
Uh, no, it's not different. People in other religions die for their beliefs. Other scriptures describe how people followed prophets and were converted to their respective faiths.
Yes. Baby steps. Seeing God in the universe is the first step. Once a person can see God's workings, or come to the acknowledge intelligence behind the things we can see, then, and only then, can that person can discover God's will.
Ah, I see. I have to become a theist before I can become a Christian.
- How do I see God in the universe?
- How does this support Christianity more than any other monotheistic religion?
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
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Offline isa820 wrote:Yes, I see the problem.
I am wondering what exactly the extra-biblical evidence should support. If I need to show extra-biblical evidence that the Bible is the word of God, I'm not sure I can do it.
Precisely. This is where we're coming from. We see what you just said, and what others say, using their books, etc, and we say "Wait a minute. This is exactly the same."
If there *were* a true religion, if there *were* a multi-omni god (assuming the 'all good' portion, and also assuming a punishment/reward system like that described in the Bible) there wouldn't be any problem. We wouldn't be thinking about "Does god exist?" or "Which god?" We'd be thinking "How should we worship god?"
And god, being all-powerful and all-knowing, *could* do so if he chose. That he hasn't yet, says that he is either malign or indifferent. Again, assuming multi-omni status.
In other words: I agree. There's absolutely no way to prove it. And it's not because we're not open-minded, or that our hearts are hardened against god, or that we hate god, or whatever.... it's just that the evidence is insufficient. And in a world with an all-powerful and all-knowing god, that's an argument-smooshing paradox. 'Smooshing' is a technical term.
If I understand you right, because God is all powerful and all knowing, he could make himself known or make the truth known, then all would worship him and none would be lost, and because he does not, he either does not exist, or exists and is not worthy of worship anyway. Is this the paradox?
Gen 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
God said that he wished he would not have made man, because man commits evil. Would he have said this if he already knew we would turn out this way? or how about:
Jer 36:1 - 36:3 And it came to pass in the fourth year of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah, [that] this word came unto Jeremiah from the LORD, saying, Take thee a roll of a book, and write therein all the words that I have spoken unto thee against Israel, and against Judah, and against all the nations, from the day I spake unto thee, from the days of Josiah, even unto this day. It may be that the house of Judah will hear all the evil which I purpose to do unto them; that they may return every man from his evil way; that I may forgive their iniquity and their sin.
The belief that God knows everything that we will ever do is not biblical. Freewill is our ability to choose our actions. God clearly does not know wether the house of Judah will repent of their ways, but tells Jeremiah to speak to them anyway.
Anyway, God does make himself manifest to those who come to him. Those who seek him will find him. Exactly why this is so, I do not know.
So what indirect evidence do you have for supernatural existence? Or agency? Or beings? What is the evidence?
How about the existance of instruction. If, in the beginning there was just matter and energy, and space (void) between, or wether matter became energy or vice-versa, (or however you may personally believe it took place), where did instruction come from? Instruction exists behind everything. What tells, (or how does it know) DNA to unwind itsself into two pieces, and combine with half of another DNA strand to give instruction on the formation of one new being?
Where did math come from? Math is behind everything in the universe. Humans discovered it, and use it as a tool. Without math, life would not exist and forces would cease to exist. Forces of the universe obey mathmatical equasions. So, beginning with matter and energy, how did math come into existance, and what gave instruction?
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How do you know that?
How do you know these things occurred?
Why? Because people do stupid things. Because people are often wrong. There's nothing unique about Christianity in this respect. People in many religions have also died for their beliefs. People that used to be against other religions have also been converted to those religions.
How do you know this?
Lol, well, the Flying Spaghetti Monster is a mock religion, so nobody actually believes in it (I hope). I wouldn't give up anything for the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
I'm not questioning the meaning of these stories. I'm asking how you know these events, particularly the supernatural events, actually happened.
Of course not, I wouldn't believe that either. They wouldn't be lying. They would be absolutely convinced that their beliefs are correct, but they would be wrong, just like suicide bombers, Buddhist monks that set themselves on fire, Japanese kamikazes, etc. I can believe that because I know it happens.
Positive claims require positive evidence. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. The claim that someone is the son of God is about as extraordinary as you can get, but based on the small amount of knowledge I have on this topic, the evidence for Jesus's divinity ranges from absurdly flimsy to non-existent.
That's probably the only evidence from you I would respect.
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
REPLY TO CRAZYMONKEY
Yes, I see the problem.
I am wondering what exactly the extra-biblical evidence should support. If I need to show extra-biblical evidence that the Bible is the word of God, I'm not sure I can do it. I could provide prophesy within the Bible that has been fulfilled, but you would probably argue that the event actually took place before the prophesy was written. I will provide them, if they would work. Let me know.
If my story does not count as proof either, than I cannot do it.
Some things cannot be observed. Back in the day, an obstetrician named Dr. Ignaz Semmelweiss observed differences in death rates between patients treated by doctors and midwives. The difference between them was that the doctors also performed autopsies and the midwives did not. He imagined that something unseen was causing the spread of the disease which was killing the patients. He called these "unseen things" morbid particles. He began insisting that the doctors wash their hands between doing autopsies and examinations. He was riddiculed by his peers and eventually fired because his "morbid particles" did not fit into sceince. They were not observable.
Black holes are believed to exist although nobody has ever seen one. Scientists believe that they exist because they observe changes in surrounding objects. For some reason, something completely un-observable can fall into the guidelines of science. To them, influences on surrounding objects is deemed evidence of the existance of something unseen.
Why is it that changes in lives...(drastic changes)...cannot be used as evidence for God? Some of these changes, like Saul to Paul, are incredible! They defy human logic!
But...If I can't use my story or prophesy, I don't know how to answer. Please state exactly what the extra-biblical evidence must support.
Here's a question you need to answer for yourself: If something can not be observed at all, how do you know it exists?
"Anyone can repress a woman, but you need 'dictated' scriptures to feel you're really right in repressing her. In the same way, homophobes thrive everywhere. But you must feel you've got scripture on your side to come up with the tedious 'Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve' style arguments instead of just recognising that some people are different." - Douglas Murray
Precisely. This is where we're coming from. We see what you just said, and what others say, using their books, etc, and we say "Wait a minute. This is exactly the same."
If there *were* a true religion, if there *were* a multi-omni god (assuming the 'all good' portion, and also assuming a punishment/reward system like that described in the Bible) there wouldn't be any problem. We wouldn't be thinking about "Does god exist?" or "Which god?" We'd be thinking "How should we worship god?"
And god, being all-powerful and all-knowing, *could* do so if he chose. That he hasn't yet, says that he is either malign or indifferent. Again, assuming multi-omni status.
In other words: I agree. There's absolutely no way to prove it. And it's not because we're not open-minded, or that our hearts are hardened against god, or that we hate god, or whatever.... it's just that the evidence is insufficient. And in a world with an all-powerful and all-knowing god, that's an argument-smooshing paradox. 'Smooshing' is a technical term.
See, but here's the thing: This hypothesis, or maybe even weird obsession, was borne out by *empirical evidence.* There were scores of hunches and hypotheses that folks thought were absolutely true, but that haven't been borne out by empirical evidence. For instance, the Epicurean idea that all of physical reality is either matter or void. Or the idea of the humours. Or phrenology. Or the doctrine of signatures. And so on.
Speculation about spiritual matters has no recourse to empirical evidence; in fact, it flat-out denies the usefulness of such things in philosophical speculation. Meaning: It destroys itself as a meaningful ontology before it even begins.
So what indirect evidence do you have for supernatural existence? Or agency? Or beings? What is the evidence?
Because, as I said before, they are prone to error- at the very least. We human beings make patterns; it's how we created the abstractions of past and future, how we're able to think about causation and correlation, and so forth. This trend can also, however, cause us to see patterns where there are none. Add to that the fact that we are constantly filtering raw data through our brains, using cognitive filters that we developed due to social, physical, mental, etc, pressures- often to the point that various people literally do not see the same world that others do- and it's easy to explain why personal experience, even (or maybe especially) radical and extraordinary experiences, are not good evidence.
It must not resort to special pleading. That is my only requirement. If I, or anyone else, can find a story that is similar or the same, using similar or the same claims and similar or the same proofs, it does not count.
Good luck. Seriously, good luck.
Science can explore any subject that can be rationally and objectively explored.
The simple fact that light disappears around a certain place in space, even if you have no scientific training, should demonstrate that something is present which causes the light to disappear.
All kinds of things can change a person's life, from a car accident to playing a musical instrument to believing that the rapture will occur within their lifetime. The fact that their life changed only shows that something changed their life. It is not evidence for a God.
If the experiences of Christians are evidence for Yahweh, then the experiences of Muslims are evidence for Allah, and so on,
What does that mean? Why does it defy logic? Does Joseph Smith translating scriptures from an ancient language he didn't understand defy logic? Does the Golden Monkey traveling to the west and becoming a good spirit defy logic?
You don't think these kinds of things happen with other religions?
If you hadn't had your personal experience, would you still be an atheist?
Are these prophecies not terribly ambiguous? Can it be verified that they weren't self-fulfilling prophesies? Can it be verified that the predicted events actually occurred?
Any objective evidence. Show me any reason to believe that any God exists or that any supernatural event in the Bible actually occurred. You could probably convince me that your God is true just by showing that the Bible is free of contradictions and atrocities. Here are some good ones to start with in addition to the ones I posted above. My problem with each of them should be obvious.
Say to the Israelites: "A woman who becomes pregnant and gives birth to a son will be cermonially unclean for seven days, just as she is unclean during her monthly period. On the eighth day the boy is to be circumcised. Then the woman must wait thirty-three days to be purified from her bleeding. She must not touch anything sacred or go to the sanctuary until the days of her purification are over.
If she gives birth to a daughter, for two weeks the woman will be unclean, as during her period. Then she must wait sixty-six days to be purified from her bleeding." Leviticus 12:2-5
Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 1 Corinthians 13:4-5
Beloved, let us LOVE one another: for love is of God; and every one who loves is born of God, and knows God. He who does not love does not know God, for God is LOVE. 1 John 4:7-8
Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me. And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. Exodus 20:5-6
If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. Stone him to death, because he tried to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. Deuteronomy 13:6-10
For all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy. Zephaniah 3:8
"Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. They were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and were the means of turning the Israelites away from the Lord in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the Lord's people. Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man. Numbers 31:15-18
"For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness." 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12
"The next day as they were leaving Bethany, Jesus was hungry. Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to find out if it had any fruit. When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, because it was not the season for figs. Then he said to the tree, "May no one ever eat fruit from you again." And his disciples heard him say it." Mark 11:12-14
"The locusts looked like horses prepared for battle. On their heads they wore something like crowns of gold, and their faces resembled human faces. Their hair was like women's hair, and their teeth were like lion's teeth. They had breastplates like breastplates of iron, and the sound of their wings was like the thundering of many horses and chariots rushing into battle. They had tails and stings like scorpions and in their tails they had power to torment people for five months. They had as king over them the angel of the Abyss, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in Greek, Apollyn." Revelations 9:7-11
And, pretty much all the questions in this thread as well.
http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/sapient/atheist_vs_theist/66
Edit: Also, it'd be nice if you could show how Genesis 1 and 2 don't contradict physics, biology, etc. or why Genesis holds more weight than science. If you don't take Genesis literally, I'd like to know what Jesus died for. On top of that, I want to know why Jesus had to die at all.
Really, I have a lot of questions. Very little in Christianity makes any sense to me.
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
It depends on what you mean. If you're using the phrase in its proper sense then I would never be so arrogant as to pretend that I have perfected an ontology, an explanation, a futurology, a value scale, a praxeology, an epistemology and an etiology all of which would harmonically and constantly define the world. I have developed several of these features of a worldview more than others, have ethical objections to developing some of them conclusively, preferring enquiry to the adoption of false certainty (the preserve of the religious mind and sports commentators), and have a profound understanding of the simple fact that I am one person, not the entire human race - a fact for which I am eternally grateful, given the race in question, but which forces me to conclude the prosaic fact that individuals' points of view preclude "worldviews" from having any real application except as faulty debating points. What's yours?I would rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy
Had a hard week. I watched a movie with family, and am going to bed early. Replies will come tomarrow. Happy Mothers Day to any mothers reading.
I am explaining the difference between your question "how do I know that the Bible IS the word of God', and what I see, that 'the Bible contains the word of God'. For example,
Deu 24:1 When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give [it] in her hand, and send her out of his house.
Was this God's law, or the law of Moses?
Mat 19:7 - 19:8 They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away? He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.
Moses allowed divorce, because of the hardness of the peoples hearts.
Jhn 8:5 - 8:7 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou? This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with [his] finger wrote on the ground, [as though he heard them not]. So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
Did Jesus go against the Law of God or the law of Moses?
These events are spoke of by Paul himself, and recorded by Phd. Luke. I cannot find any reason to believe they would lie about these events. At the very least, we could accept the fact that he believed these events took place then question wether or not he was sane.
The difference is that Christianity was not a religion at this time. These people knew Jesus. They ate with him, walked with him and listened to him for years. They had ample time to judge wether or not he was a flake. People today believe their religion is real because they are taught that by parents and society, and the teaching begins young and is quite hard to break. The followers of Christ knew that following him led to death. They chose death because of the events they had witnessed led them to believe that he must have come from God.
Because they give these reasons in their books. I did not make them up.
My evidence, because I was not there physically, is to look at the effects these events had on their surroundings. If one were to appear in front of me, today, claiming to be from God, I doubt I would believe them. If, however, they had the ability to perform supernatural events, I might follow to see If their words match what I understand to be the will of God. I would never put my flesh in jepordy without proof (that satisfies myself) that there claims must be true. It is unnatural not to love self, or life. (I know that many these days kill themselves due to depression, and in days past due to honor, but never did they follow something they know to be false, just because they wanted to die.)
Again, to go against what one believes, and give up their lives for a cause that has not been taught to them from infancy, or for a man which they knew personally and had an opportunity to determine the truthfulness of his teachings and the power of his words, to me this is different.
Yes. Baby steps. Seeing God in the universe is the first step. Once a person can see God's workings, or come to the acknowledge intelligence behind the things we can see, then, and only then, can that person can discover God's will.