Muslim ALMALHAMAH split off posts from another thread
Offline ALMALHAMAH posted these views in a thread about Theism being irrational, however that thread had a specific purpose of only consisting of posts for the Theism is Irrational show.
I agree with you that faith based on ignorance and blindness is irrational.For instance:
Judiasm: God is not racist, he does not only care about jews, and despise and condemn all other races.
Christianity: The trinity doctrine makes no sense, three cannot be equal to one. How can the creator be crucified by the creation.
Islam: God is One and he needs no partners, He begets not, nor was He begotten; "And there is none co-equal or comparable unto Him."
Lets look at some verses from the Quran (written 1427+ years ago and preserved word-for-word til today):
{ Have not those who disbelieved known that the heavens* and the earth were one connected entity, then We separated them?... } (Quran, 21:30)
*heavens in arabic is a term referring to the universe
We have just found this out in the 20th century due to the Big Bang theory that, the origin of the earth and the universe all came from the same place. We also know that the universe is expanding:
{ The heaven, We have built it with power. And verily, We are expanding it. } (Quran, 51:47)
In fact, once the universe reaches a critical density, then the universe would reach a maximum size and then begin to collapse. It would become denser and hotter again, ending with a state that was similar to that in which it started—a Big Crunch. In the Quran we are told:
{ On the day when We will roll up the heavens like the rolling up of the scroll for writings, as We originated the first creation, (so) We shall reproduce it; a promise (binding on Us); surely We will bring it about.} (Quran, 21:104)
Also you can feel free to ask me anything reguarding the biological, astronomical, or geological aspects mentioned in the Quran.
Here is a source for the Big Bang and Big Crunch: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang
The bible states that Jesus (pbuh) died for all of mankind, because of origional sin (which by the way Adam nor Eve consulted me before they ate that apple).
(1) Bible states that every man is responsible for his sins (Eziekel 18:20) "the son will not bear the iniquity of the father nor the father bear the iniquity of the son"
(2) Jesus (pbuh) said on the cross "Eli Eli, lama sabachthani? (my God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me) in Matt 27:46- this implies (a) Jesus was not God (b) Jesus said a blasphemous statement. (c) Jesus was asking himself a question outloud.
(3) One of the commandments says "Thou shal not make any graven image of Me", but christians draw pictures and sculpt statues of Jesus (pbuh) all the time.
(4) The Dead Sea Scrolls recently recovered from the Vatican (after they hid it for 40 years) states that the village of Qumran (around Israel) 2nd Century BC states that the fundamentalist jews and hebrews already made the ritual up of crucifixion and the messiah dying for the sins of all mankind
(5) Trinity eerily resembles the ancient aryian Sun God worship of Mithras. Same rituals and fundamentals, virgin birth, December 25th, miracles, came to redeem all mankind, baptism (Mithraism used to baptise in blood), tree decorations, yule log, sacrifice for all mankind, .... read about it (Mithraism 7th century BC) it is strikingly similar to christianity.
peace :D
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Quran 14:37
{ And from among His Signs are the night and the day, and the sun and the moon. Prostrate not to the sun nor to the moon, but prostrate to Allâh Who created them, if you (really) worship Him. }
Allah is the arabic word for GOD.
Muslims worship a god by the name of Allah. They also give him ninety nine other names. The question that naturally arises is who or what is this Allah? Where did the Muslims derive their ideas of Allah’s nature and attributes?
In his works, Dr. Robert Morey - a Christian missionary, maintains having conducted a comprehensive research and made exhaustive study on the subject "Allah of Islam". The author alleges that the Muslims give ninety nine "other names" to Allah. It is indeed strange that a learned scholar who has written books and articles on the subject of "Allah" does not even know that these "ninety nine" are not the "other names" of Allah, but they are His attributes! In the event that the author is quite aware of the true facts and yet has made this remark then one can only guess that the author's intentions, from the outset, are not to deal with the facts but to present distorted views for Allah.
The Future of the World and the United States can be summed up in one verse:
Quran 61:9
{ He it is Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islâmic Monotheism) to make it victorious over all (other) religio
The Crescent Moon heralds the beginning of the new month and the new year. During the period of Islamic Empire, the crescent moon was adopted as a state emblem.(More specifically the Ottoman Empire, as the moon symbol is still on the Turkish flag)
It had nothing to do with religious beliefs. Today, Eagle is the popular state emblem in U.S.A. Does that emblem represent the religious beliefs of the citizens of U.S.A.?
The Future of the World and the United States can be summed up in one verse:
Quran 61:9
{ He it is Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islâmic Monotheism) to make it victorious over all (other) religio
To be fair, Allah was the name of a pagan moon god (or goddess?) back in those days - hence the crescent symbol.
Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team
The moon is deeply wrapped in religious beliefs and symbolism.
"Although the moon has not had great prominence in the history of religion, the worship of it has been known since earliest recorded time—in the oldest literatures of Egypt, Babylonia, India, and China—and still exists today in various parts of the world, particularly among certain African and Native American groups. Moon worship is founded on the belief that the phases of the moon and the growth and decline of plant, animal, and human life are related."
Link
"Historical evidences, impartial logic, well versed references and all available circumstantial judgments can very well prove that—(a) Allah name of deity was pre-existed much before the arrival of Islam, (b) Pre-Islamic Pagan peoples worshipped Allah as their supreme deity (moon-god). Allah’s name existed in pre-Islamic Arab. In ancient Arab the Allah was considered to be the supreme God/deity (as Moon-God) and Arab Pagans worshipped Allah before Islam arrived."
Link
Okay this source is a kooky theist, but a lot of the research is sound. Even though he's arguing we should all be Xtians instead......
"The Muslim's claim that Allah is the God of the Bible and that Islam arose from the religion of the prophets and apostles is refuted by solid, overwhelming archeological evidence. Islam is nothing more than a revival of the ancient Moon-god cult. It has taken the symbols, the rites, the ceremonies, and even the name of its god from the ancient pagan religion of the Moon-god. As such, it is sheer idolatry and must be rejected by all those who follow the Torah and Gospel."
Link
And here's a list of moon deities through the ages...
I had never heard this "Allah=Moon-god" theory before. I take it all with a grain of salt of course. I don't believe in allah, moon gods ar lost sock deities. But the moon IS symbolic of changing seasons, and the passing of time in many ancient religions. I'm sure they didn't pick it just because it "looked cool". You even stated they chose it because "The Crescent Moon heralds the beginning of the new month and the new year."
That's based in old moon beliefs. Hmmm, well, I'm still out to lunch on this. Compelling stuff, though.
ALMALHAMAH, posting some incredibly vague, archaic verses from an ancient text, which, utilizing today's methods of deconstruction and literary interpretation, somewhat resemble a heading one would find in a popular science magazine (at best) is not good enough. Does the Quran provide a single differential equation? Does it have anything to say about quantum interactions? Does it charaterize dark matter, or perhaps give hints as to the fundamental constants? Ancient myths tend to spew out lots of cosmological (poetic sounding, too!) nonsense, and this is merely another example, one that happens to coincidentally be metaphorically compatible (note how weak of a link this is) with our scientific theories.
The Bible, just like the Quran, and every other compilation of ancient mythologies and rites, are all the same in that they may be an occasional fun read (especially for those of us looking for primary material from thousands of years ago), but whose scientific accuracy is absolutely minimal, and, more importantly, whose scientific relevance is zero. Ask yourself why no modern scientist looks into the Bible or Quran for advice on how to proceed in the development of a theory. Why did Neuton, Einstein, and Darwin never care for those old books' scientific contents?
The people who wrote these books thought the earth was flat, that the Earth revolved around the Sun, that diseases were caused by demons and curses. These books are merely their musings, which is why you have to go through literary loops just to get them to be compatible with our current wisdom.
An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded.
Bear in mind this was memorized word-for-word and written since 620 until now. Quran still exists in its origional arabic form today and was revealed to the people by an illiterate man (Muhammed [pbuh]).
Origin of the Universe:
{ "Do not the unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together as one unit of creation, before We clove them asunder?" } (Quran 21:30)
heavens in arabic is a reference to the universe.
Expanding universe:
{ "The heaven, We have built it with power. And verily, We are expanding it." } (Quran 51:47)
Parallels with the Big Crunch & an oscillating universe:
{ "On the day when We will roll up the heavens like the rolling up of the scroll for writings, as We originated the first creation, (so) We shall reproduce it; a promise (binding on Us); surely We will bring it about." } (Quran 21:104)
you want more proof, there are lots of it?
The Quran never mentions the earth as being flat. Where did you get your current wisdom from? The Renaissance, what inspired the Renaissance, the great Islamic Empire that preceded it and occupied urrent day Spain & Portugal (Al-Andalous).
The Future of the World and the United States can be summed up in one verse:
Quran 61:9
{ He it is Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islâmic Monotheism) to make it victorious over all (other) religio
You have not addressed my argument, you have merely restated yours. The Qu'ran is scientifically useless, even if it coincidentally resembles how one might explain a scientific theory to a seventh-grader.
An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded.
The quran is not meant to be a scientific book, it is used for faith and worship. It does have some scientific facts in it but it not a book of science.
HOWEVER, it does not contradict science.
If it does, provide your proof. (and try not to use answering-islam website because it is not credible and can easily be refuted)
The Future of the World and the United States can be summed up in one verse:
Quran 61:9
{ He it is Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islâmic Monotheism) to make it victorious over all (other) religio
My point is still not apparent to you. I'm saying that it doesn't matter if your book "contradicts" science, and that this is purely coincidental. Since it is written in flowery, poetic prose, one can certainly make metaphorical connections between our current cosmological views and the Quran, but this in no way says anything about the book. All it means is that you can find a quote and, with a little hand-waving, make it metaphorically coincide with current scientific thought. This does not give the Qu'ran any extra points for credibility. It is still a book of ancient myths and customs, one that should be regarded as a historical artifact.
An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded.
21:30 is not talking of the universe
*heavens in arabic does not refer to the universe.
Which proves you know nothing about the arabic language.
Universe - all existing things , including the earth and its creatures and all stars , planets , etc
الكائِنات , المَسْكُونَة , المَعْمُورَة , دُنْيا , عالَم , كَوْن , مَعْمُور , مَلَكُوت
Heaven - a place regarded in some religions as abode of God and angels , and of the good after death , often characterized as above the sky
المَلَأُ الأَعْلَى , جَنَّة , عَلْياء , عَنَانُ السَّمَاء , فِرْدَوْس
People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.
Here is 21-30
أَوَلَمْ يَرَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا أَنَّ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضَ كَانَتَا رَتْقًا فَفَتَقْنَاهُمَا وَجَعَلْنَا مِنَ الْمَاء كُلَّ شَيْءٍ حَيٍّ أَفَلَا يُؤْمِنُونَ
The arabic reference to heaven is السَّمَاوَاتِ
It is not referring to the universe; it is referring to the sky .
People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.
Also if this was true, there would be no need for the word 'universe' then right?
But yet, if you read the koran you will find the word 'universe' is used.
People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.
Explain to me Mr. Arabic speaking man, how to say UNIVERSE in arabic.
So you have nothing to say then.
People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.
No, i do have something to say, but because you keep posting articles about the samawat, in arabic, you explain to me from your own knowledge of arabic how do you say UNIVERSE in arabic.
The Future of the World and the United States can be summed up in one verse:
Quran 61:9
{ He it is Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islâmic Monotheism) to make it victorious over all (other) religio
And your point would be?
People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.
stop avoiding the question and answer it, it is relevant to my point.
How do you say UNIVERSE in arabic?
The Future of the World and the United States can be summed up in one verse:
Quran 61:9
{ He it is Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islâmic Monotheism) to make it victorious over all (other) religio
whats relevant about it?
People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.
stop avoiding the damn question.
if you have the logic to prove heavens is not a reference to the universe, then YOU TELL ME IN ARABIC WHAT IS THE ARABIC WORD FOR UNIVERSE.
The Future of the World and the United States can be summed up in one verse:
Quran 61:9
{ He it is Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islâmic Monotheism) to make it victorious over all (other) religio
See, the problem here is what happens every time someone says that the verse in the koran just might mean something else than what YOU are saying it means.
You immediately disagree, and ask the person if they know Arabic. If they then get translations or interpretations from a webite, you say whatever website they grabbed the translation from "is full of lies", and what amounts to "The koran is truth, and I know Arabic, and you don't, so don't bother arguing with me until you learn arabic."
I can't see any way to ever resolve this. Unless we had an atheist on this forum who DID know arabic... Hmmmm.....
Glamour cat there is a simple solution to this problem, DONT POST SHIT YOU DONT KNOW ABOUT. simple as that. I don't know a lot about evolution, so i don't bother discussing it.
AiiA does not know arabic, clearly, all he did was copy paste from some unknown website, then automatically insists he refuted it, even though he doesn't know what he is posting.
I challenge you AiiA find me the Arabic word for
Let me answer this for you, obviously you don't know anything about arabic.
SAMAWI is the arabic word for CELESTIAL..
The Future of the World and the United States can be summed up in one verse:
Quran 61:9
{ He it is Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islâmic Monotheism) to make it victorious over all (other) religio
Okay, fine, that's a good enough policy. Notice I haven't argued about any of the Arabic vs. translation stuff. Because I don't know Arabic.
But I don't need to know the languages of Australian aboriginals to not believe in the Rainbow Serpent.
The "problem" with telling someone they don't know something is that they will usually seek out knowledge. But none of these sources posted are "okay with you". You deliberately point us away from one specific islamic refutation site, but have not suggested another one that you approve arguments from. Is there a site or resource that refutes Islam that you will accept arguments from? I really would like to learn more about Islam. It just seems that you are the sole "fact dispenser" on here. It gets a little frustrating. Many of us have ONLY read one of the english translations(if we have read it) and cannot quote the Arabic. Thanks in advance.
BTW, my name is Kat, not Cat.
Clearly you missed my entire post above on the first page. I will PASTE the part referring to UNIVERSE here again.
English - Arabic
UNIVERSE - all existing things , including the earth and its creatures and all stars , planets , etc
الكائِنات , المَسْكُونَة , المَعْمُورَة , دُنْيا , عالَم , كَوْن , مَعْمُور , مَلَكُوت
Celestial is not a reference to the universe. Celestial is refering to the stars, sun, and moon. It is pertaining to the visible sky.
The universe is a reference to all of existence - everything.
celestial - related to the sky or heaven
سَمَاوِيّ , عُلْوِيّ , فَوْقانِيّ , فَوْقِيّ
People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.
I will define each word so you know how clueless you are about arabic:
الكائِنات means the "created things" like the world
root word كائِن meaning being, existent, situated, located, creation.
المَسْكُونَة means "the inhabited world, the world"
root word سْكنَة meaning residence, home.
دُنْيا means "world, earth"
عالَم means "world"
كَوْن means "being, existence, event, occurence"
مَعْمُور means "inhabited, populated, populous"
مَلَكُوت means "realm, kingdom, empire, sovereignty"
As you can see NONE of the 8 words you COPY-PASTED means UNIVERSE
The Future of the World and the United States can be summed up in one verse:
Quran 61:9
{ He it is Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islâmic Monotheism) to make it victorious over all (other) religio
Go here my friend you are using a defective reference.
http://dictionary.sakhr.com/idrisidic_2MM.asp?Lang=E-A&Sub=%cf%f5%e4%fa%ed%c7
People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.
Here's another
http://translate.google.com/translate_t
There are a dozen more
Another
http://www.systransoft.com/index.html
People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.
Actually i have an arabic english dictionary right next to me, not to mention i already know arabic.
The main point is that سَمَوَات means skys which is the plural for سماء sky.
Meaning the skies, as in the atmospheric layers are more than one.
second the atmospheric layers of the earth and the earth itself was one connected entity. In Quran 21:30, which means we knew the origin of the earth and the skies were from one connected entity then they were cloved asunder.
Unless you believe the earth and the atmospheric layers have more than one origin?
The Future of the World and the United States can be summed up in one verse:
Quran 61:9
{ He it is Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islâmic Monotheism) to make it victorious over all (other) religio
In 21-30 السَّمَاوَاتِ is the word which talks of the heavens, it is the plural of heaven.
The koran is here http://www.al-islam.org/quran/
People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.
You know what might be cool is to present an example of السَّمَاوَاتِ being used outside of the quran referning to the universe and not in the religious context of heaven. I have been doing some googleing and it seems like all the sites I was pulling up was religious sites, even when I added universe to the search.
That is correct heaven is a reference to the atmospheric layers of the earth.
the seven heavens is a reference to the seven atmospheric layers we have only recently discovered with science in the 20th century.
It is amazing how you do not confront these issues like how the muslims, christians, and jews knew the earth had 7 layers thousands of years ago. And they never guessed it, they were certain the earth has 7 heavens.
so how do you suppose they came up with this realization thousands of years before the actual scientific verification?
The Future of the World and the United States can be summed up in one verse:
Quran 61:9
{ He it is Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islâmic Monotheism) to make it victorious over all (other) religio
That is a big leap to make Alma. Also you know we aren't really in the busness of saying religion has everything wrong, but where did you get the idea that 7 heavens means 7 atmospheres?
look up the word heaven on the dictionary:
heav·en
1 : the expanse of space that seems to be over the earth like a dome : FIRMAMENT -- usually used in plural
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=heaven
you still neglected to note WHY or HOW previous and current monotheistic religions know for a fact there are seven heavens, or seven layers of atmosphere above the earth.
The Future of the World and the United States can be summed up in one verse:
Quran 61:9
{ He it is Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islâmic Monotheism) to make it victorious over all (other) religio
Maybe they chose 7 because of that? And anyway, that isn't heaven - we still haven't found heaven even with deep space exploration, the Hubble telescope, etc.
Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team