Atheists and Theists are both mistaken.
Offline First, we have to accept the fact that it is impossible for the human mind to comprehend Reality. That gives you a test that you can use: If you think you understand Reality, you have made a mistake. Christians think they understand Reality. They are wrong. Atheists believe they understand Reality, and they too have made a mistake.
It is, however, possible to understand what Reality is not. This requires that you be willing to drop your pre-conceived beliefs, stop thinking, and simply watch.
There is a process of Spiritual Evolution that is taking place. We are all involved in it whether we want to be or not; whether we know it or not. The process takes many directions, and moves at many different speeds. All of us will reach enlightenment. Some will take hundreds of thousands of years; some will simply accept it now.
The reason we can be assured that we will all achieve enlightenment is because it has already happened. The concept of time being linear is an illusion. That is one of our biggest mistakes. You have enlightenment now – you just don’t know it. It is nearly impossible for a human to think outside of linear time. In these few sentences, I seem to have contradicted myself regarding time, but that is because we cannot understand that there is no such thing as time.
There is also no such thing as physical reality. (Any quantum physicists out there?) The acceptance of the absence of time and physical reality is a very big step. But once you have taken that step, it all begins to fall into place. What does “no time” and “no physical reality” mean? It means no place called heaven. No hell. No universe. No “you”. Of course, there is a “You”, but “you” don’t know what that is.
The fact is the only Reality is perfection. Here is another test we can use. If it is not perfect, it is not real. Are you perfect? Am I? No. Therefore, we are not real – we (meaning we humans) don’t really exist. The universe does not exist, and God did not create it.
Nothing real can be threatened.
Nothing unreal exists.
Herein lies the Peace of God.
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>>...but it all boils down to faith
Yes, it does. Simply because it is not possible for people to *really* understand it. But don't be afraid of faith - we live our lives on it. Little faiths to big faiths. You turn the key and have faith the truck will start. You read a piece of paper that tells you how much money you have in the bank and you have faith that it's actually there. You have faith your girlfriend is not running around on you. You have faith in your abilities. You open your eyes and "see" something, and you have faith that it's actually there. And on and on... up to having faith about the nature of Reality.
Contingent faith is a probabilistic belief, which does not contradict what we know of the world. It will dissipate in the face of overwhelming negative evidence.
Everything you described above is based on contingent faith.
There are keys; there are trucks; trucks have started in the past many times by turning the key.
There is paper; there are banks; there is money; the arithmetic on the bank statement is in tune with what you removed from your account in paying for things.
There are women; there are women who do not cheat.
You have proven by doing things that you have abilities by actually having done things that require abilities.
Animals have eyes; you have eyes; eyes are need to see; you see the keyboard and direct your hand to it and it is at the place where you see it.
There is everything that you interacted with which is referred to as nature.
Everything in the universe that is composed of matter/energy is nature and you have faith in its predictability because of what happened in your and others’ interactions with nature in the past.
It is theistic faith that is illusion.
… but there is no way to prove anything. Proof is not possible within an illusion.
But what is that which someone claims to be real? What is your definition of ‘real’, and of ‘illusion’. Are they the same thing? In your opinion is logic real? If logic is not real, how are you coming to your conclusions?
People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.
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Offline >>Sorry for my recent absenteeism,
No obligation here.
>> I think it's safe to say that you are seperating consiousness from the physical body
Absolutely. Your body is EXTERNAL to your Mind. To the real Mind, the body does not exist. The body (everything physical) is a projection of the separated mind.
>>...conciousness is a by-product of the physical rather than a seperate entity.
I think it's the other way around!! And this is *THE* difference between how you and i see it. The physical is a projection of conciousness.
>>I don't believe conciousness can outlive the body, since it would not exist without the body.
Again, I see it as the oppisite. The body cannot outlive concisouness, since the body would not exist without having been thunk up by a sleeping, dreaming Mind.
Here we have an exact oppisite point of view. Beautiful!
>>This would work better for me if it was "God isn't".
That is part of what I am saying. "god isn't". There is no God here. This is a hiding place from God. However, we have come up with a number of gods. Usually nasty.
>>Sorry, but there is no "me" that is immortal or perfect.
You are right. There is no you that is immortal.......... (Psssst: maybe there's Something else.....)
>>I know who I am...
I'll bet you do.
>> I don't believe that you believe your typing to yourself ...
There is only One.
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Offline This is all very nice and creative and all, but really, it doesn't seem like nothing other than wishful thinking to me. There are a couple of problems with your ideas, I think;
First of all, I'd like to say that I assume the universe is 'false', but only in a way. I mean, I know my sight (along with the other senses) are things that my brain creates for me to understand the Universe. In that way, it's all an illusion. But that doesn't mean things are not out there. I mean, I could be crazy, or dreaming, or whatever, but why would I assume that? To me it's just completely neutral. I could think, maybe things are out there. Or I could think , things are not. It's all unreal. Doesn't make either true.
Also, you are sort of using ideas which just don't add up. Suppose there is, like you say, Reality. All of this universe is created, fictional. I can't really imagine Reality because it's ouside the bounds of my own reality; hence I can only suppose it exists. You claim this universe is a 'dream', so to speak. Yet how can you suppose the Truth or whatever you want to call it is in fact 'dreaming'? It would be impossible to know it. 'Dreaming', 'false', 'real', those are just concepts of a universe, that according to you, is false. Supposing this is all an illusion leads nowhere. What could be 'out there'? What is the Reality? We, as an illusion, or something non-existant or untrue could never know, or could we?
Which leads me to the following point. Even if your assumptions were correct, how did you come to realise this? I mean specifically, because when you say 'open your eyes' or 'choose to wake up' and stuff like that, it honestly sounds like mumbo jumbo new age crap. Even if you have an explanation for the how, why would you be sure of what you think is true? There is no reason to assume it as truth. You can have faith in it of course. But I can also have faith in Her Pink Invisible Majesty (Blessed Be Her Holy Hooves) and it doesn't make it true. Or logical for that matter.
On a more light-hearted note: if we are One, if you are writing this to yourself, why are you bothering? You consider you already know the truth, don't you? I don't see the fun in typing stuff to yourself. Although according to you, that's what I (We) am doing now. You have to admit, this is all pretty out there. Are you sure the psychedelic stuff didn't work?
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>>It is theistic faith that is illusion.
I suppose so, because we are talking about that which we cannot know. But you'd have to agree that we don't really know what is going on. And if you watch, you'll see the common direction that moves people toward an understanding.
>>You claim nothing is real.
There is a Reality. But we have forgotten what it is. All we have to do is be quite and remember who we are. And who we are will tell us of ourselves.
>>What is your definition of ‘real’, and of ‘illusion’.
I am working on getting away from my definitions. Actually, I don't think we have a clue.
>>Are they the same thing?
No. One is Real, and the other is illusion.
>>In your opinion is logic real?
In this world, logic is all around us. Water flows down hill. If you are talking about what is beyond this world, logic is meaningless.
>>If logic is not real, how are you coming to your conclusions?
"Resign as your own teacher, for you have been poorly taught." Words from my Teacher.
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Offline Absolutely. Your body is EXTERNAL to your Mind. To the real Mind, the body does not exist. The body (everything physical) is a projection of the separated mind.
If the mind is is not a product of the body, then why do we have brains?
I think it's the other way around!! And this is *THE* difference between how you and i see it. The physical is a projection of conciousness.
Then, what you'd need to explain is how conciousness simply "is".
Again, I see it as the oppisite. The body cannot outlive concisouness, since the body would not exist without having been thunk up by a sleeping, dreaming Mind.
Here we have an exact oppisite point of view. Beautiful!
If the body could not exist without being dreamt by the mind, then what was it that dreamt the mind?
You are right. There is no you that is immortal.......... (Psssst: maybe there's Something else.....)
I'm not really getting where you're going with this...
Jesus died for somebody's sins, but not mine
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Offline the difference between what I am trying to describe and the explanation provided by traditional theists is in the illusion of the physical universe. Traditional religion says god created the physical universe. My understanding is that there is no physical universe.
Yes, your belief does differ dramatically from most theists. The way that they are alike is that they are both supernatural explanations.
If you attempt to explain to an uneducated person the implications of quantum theory and relativity (an area of science that is beginning to question the existence of "things" physical) they will think you are crazy and tell you to take a hike.
I admit that I am no physicist and I know very little about quantum theory, but I do not know of any part of it that speculates that the physical world does not exist. I know of the 'multiverse' idea in quantum theory, that there are parallel universes (perhaps infinite) that interact in some unknown way to produce some phenomena that we have yet to explain. This is the only aspect that I have read about of quantum theory that resembles in any small way your concept.
If there is some part of quantum theory that I do not know about that suggests that our universe might not even exist, then please, point me to an article or something.
Language is important here. You can "know of it" but in the illusion you can't "know it". If you knew it, you would not be here. On a very simple level, it is like I "know of" being able to bench press 350 pounds, but I don't "know it" because I can't do that.
Alright, I'll rephrase the question.
How do you 'know of it?'
Flying Spaghetti Monster -- Great Almighty God? Or GREATEST Almighty God?
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Offline If you attempt to explain to an uneducated person the implications of quantum theory and relativity (an area of science that is beginning to question the existence of "things" physical) they will think you are crazy and tell you to take a hike.
God had no time to create time.
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Offline Ok, I'm going to look at a couple of things here.
Firstly, do you live your life by this philosophy? Do you, for example, do extremely dangerous things based on your belief that your body is your mind's image of it, and if you don't think you'll be damaged, you won't be damaged?
Secondly, agonistics live their lives by the same principles as atheists. Indeed, I'd say agnostics are a sort of atheists. Actually, semantically, theism and gnosticism are separated from each other. I shall demonstrate with a simple graph!
The blue is me. I think it's reasonable likely that there is no God.
The green is my friend Robert, who I believe represents the average amount of belief and gnosticism.
The red is my friend Julian, who is a fundamentalist protestant, and is almost certain of God's existance.
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>>I know my sight (along with the other senses) are things that my brain creates for me to understand the Universe.
Consider the senses for a minute:
Sight: 99.9999% of the spectrum of electromagnetic radiation is outside of the spectrum of visable light. (Ever heard of dark matter?) For all intents and purposes, the universe is not visable to the naked eye.
Hearing: Much like electromagnetic radiation, the vast majority of the spectrum of sound is beyond the ability of the human ear to hear.
Touch: You cannot touch the universe because it is almost all too far away, and that which you can touch is either too hot or too cold. (the range of 0 degrees F to 100 degrees F is such a small range of temperature that it is essentially meaningless.)
Taste and smell: These are almost the same, so I'll treat them so. Almost all the material in the universe cannot be tasted or smelled because it's too far away, too hot, too cold or too toxic.
So, essentially, when it comes to the universe, we can't see it; we can't hear it; we can't touch it; we can't taste it; and we can't smell it. Yet, we *know* what it's all about - right? Of course there are scientific instruments that can taste/see/smell/hear/touch, but unless you are a scientist you don't use them, and let's face it, we usually use our senses to collect the information upon which we draw our conclusions.
>>We, as an illusion, or something non-existant or untrue could never know, or could we?
No, we can't know it, we can only know of it.
>>Even if your assumptions were correct, how did you come to realise this?
I was informed by a Teacher.
>>What is the Reality? We, as an illusion, or something non-existant or untrue could never know, or could we?
No, being lost in the illusion, we don't have a clue.
>>if we are One, if you are writing this to yourself, why are you bothering?
Because we are under the illusion of separation. It is the illusion of separation that causes ALL the pain that we experience, and frankly, I'm very sick of it.
>>You have to admit, this is all pretty out there.
It's much worse than that. Everything - EVERYTHING we think we know is incorrect from Reality's point of view. You have to be careful to avoid confusion of levels. For example, evolution is a fact in this illusion. But to Reality, evolution does not exist because in Reality nothing changes.
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>>If the mind is is not a product of the body, then why do we have brains?
Do not confuse mind with brain. The brain is just an organ like the heart or lungs. It is the computer that runs the body machine. However, the brain is external to the Mind. To make it more confusing, there are different levels of mind (Mind and mind). That is why we experience the illusion of the physical universe. The split mind projected the physical universe in an attempt to cloud the issue of separation. Ultimately, this attempt will fail.
>>Then, what you'd need to explain is how conciousness simply "is".
The best answer I can give you is within your own question: conciousness simply "is".
>>If the body could not exist without being dreamt by the mind, then what was it that dreamt the mind?
You are right on. This is the most difficult question of all to answer because the answer makes no sense to us in the illusion. The answer is that the dream never happened - it's a true and total illusion. We live our lives, we love, cry, work, play. It is an illusion - it never happened at all.
>>I'm not really getting where you're going with this...
If you work with it long enough, you will.
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Offline If you know of this by your "Teacher", then how did this "Teacher" know? Ad infinitum for the case someone informed your "Teacher". And can you tell us anything about "him" or whatever he is?
Like I said, all very pretty. But where are you going with this? You should talk about more concrete things, don't you think?
Also, Is there any way we can verify all that you said? That this is not real, etc? Even if we are microscopial and can't experience most of this Universe, that doesn't necessarily mean we are not real, does it?
I'm more interested in how you came to "know" this, exactly.
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>>The way that they are alike is that they are both supernatural explanations.
Yes. Of course it depends on the definition you are using for supernatural. There are a number of definitions in the dictionary. If you are using a definition such as "Of or relating to existence outside the natural world", the answer is yes, because we are talking about that which is outside of the natural world (the illusion). Other definitions use words like deity, devine power, god, etc. Words like those require defining as well.
>>then please, point me to an article or something.
Here are a few quotes from an article entiled "Consciousness and Quantum Mechanics" by Thomas J. McFarlane. It can be found at http://www.integralscience.org/ConsciousQM.html
"Neither Heisenberg nor Schrödinger could fully anticipate in those early days just how much their discoveries would change the Newtonian world back home. The wonders that this quantum realm revealed would soon undermine the materialistic determinism that had been the basis for the Newtonian universe. As one crossed the border into the quantum realm, materialism evaporated. Thus, just as the pioneers of Columbus' time could return home with word that the world was not flat, our quantum pioneers would bring us word that the world is not made of matter. Regarding the assumption of materialism, Schrödinger comments, "anyone who wants to make it can do so; it is convenient, if somewhat naive. He will be missing a great deal if he does." Or, as Heisenberg put it, "materialism rested upon the illusion that the kind of existence, the direct "actuality" of the world around us, can be extrapolated into the atomic range." And he adds a warning that "the naive materialistic way of thinking is an obstacle to understanding the quantum concept of reality."
"Just as circumnavigation revealed the reality of a globe behind the illusion of a flat earth, the discovery of quantum mechanics revealed a strange new reality beneath the illusion of matter. While it may be convenient to assume a flat or material world, were we to expand our range of experience, we would find limits to these notions. Thus, reality is not a big machine after all, even though it seems to be. For now the door has been opened to a new frontier beyond Newton's universe. "
What has the quantum realm revealed beneath the illusion of Newton's universe?
- That atomic matter, supposedly the ultimate immutable substance, dissolves into waves of potential existence.
- That determinism, which rigidly governed Newton's universe like a cosmic machine, falls apart, giving us a world with spontaneity.
- That the objective world, existing "out there" independent of observers, vanishes, leaving a world in which the observer and the observed are interdependent.
- That the manifold world of separate independent objects interacting within space and time is transcended, revealing a realm where all things unite in an indivisible whole. "
"And so it happened that the journey into the quantum realm revealed that the apparent world of hard matter rested on the airy cloud of nonphysical probabilities. Materialism was just a castle in the clouds, no less an illusion than the flat earth. "
A very good reference is "The Tao of Physics" by Fritjof Capra. That is getting to be a fairly old book now (1975), but it is an excellent place to include in a journey into the investigation of reality.
However, quantum physics is an area that is full of disagreements and misunderstandings. It is probably best to avoid that here because of that, and becuase I don't know a great deal about it.
>>How do you 'know of it?'
I have a Teacher and I study the course presented by that Teacher.
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>>Ive been accused of being schizophrenic.
Your accusers appear to be correct. However, because this illusion is a withdrawal from Reality, we are all schizophrenic.
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That doesn't make sense. And your premise can't be true: That would mean that either both there is a god and there is not, or that neither is true - a logical impossibility.
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If both there is a god and there is not. Therefore, God is not god.
Hey MattShizzle,
You are right. It doesn't make sense..... but... it does actually. There is a God, in the sense that there is "something". I hesitate using the word "God" because there is so much baggage that goes along with it. Spirit? Mind? Thought? Truth?
But also it means there is no god in the sense that there is no Santy Claus god like the one the traditional Christians have made up.
And it is logical. God (there's that word again) is all there is. Everything else is an illusion. Science and Spirituality are beginning to converge. Many of the insights that we have from quantum mechanics are similar to Buddaist or Zen thought. If you don't believe it's an illusion, try sticking your finger through the table that is in front of you. You can't, but there's really nothing physical there. That's a kind of illusion. Consider the spectrem of electro-magnetic radiation. It's quite broad. And within it there is this teeny wennie little sliver we call visable light. 99.9999% of it is not visable to us, yet we open our eyes, look around and think we understand what's "out there". Quantum mechanics tell us that the observer and observed are in a dance together. One effects the other. Eyes don't really take anything in, they are like movie projectors. The universe you see is a projection of what is in your mind.
MattShizzle said:
Hogspanker said:
I can already tell that this thread is going to be nice and clear........
Here's the thing. If you're going to denote something as "god", then you're by extension attributing sentience to it. Is that what you mean? You're being pretty vague while suggesting something ridiculously complex.
Jesus died for somebody's sins, but not mine
Man, a theistic self-reference. We're getting into some Douglas Hofstadter shit here, man. Gonna need to sit down.
Götter sind für Arten, die sich selbst verraten -- in den Glauben flüchten um sich hinzurichten. Menschen brauchen Götter um sich zu verletzen, um sich zu vernichten -- das sind wir.
Isn't the entire premise flawed? by stating that no one can understand reality, you are essentially asserting that you have some sort of understanding of reality (that reality itself cannot be understood). therefore you are contradicting yourself.
“The greatest tragedy in mankind's entire history may be the hijacking of morality by religion.”
“It may be that our role on this planet is not to worship God, but to create him.”
<My sentiments exactly.
Immaculate deception, indeed! That is exactly what has happened. The deception is almost totally complete, and it has been self-inflicted.
The difficulty in understanding it is not that it is "rediculously complex". It is difficult to understand because of its absolute simplicity. Humans cannot deal with something so simple.
This universe was designed so that it cannot be understood. The infinate complexity of it all is a design element intented to make understanding impossible. We once thought the Bohr atom was the end of the line. Now we know there are particles within particles within particles...... There is no end to it. That is by design to keep us prisoner here.
The universe was made to be a place to hide from God. God is not here, because God does not deal with illusion. God does not know that you think you exist.
If we are going to attempt to understand Reality using words, then it is impossible to not be vague.
Then I would be self-inclined to say prove it.
Sentience is always a very complex concept, one that we don't fully understand. Therefore, an entire universe that is sentient would be ridiculously complex.
I'd point out that you contradicted yourself here, but that seems to be your goal from the start (I think?)
Discovery of new knowledge does not nessecarily mean that there is infinite knowledge on a given subject. Using god to fill in the blanks doesn't help anyone.
I thought god and the universe were one and the same?
I see no reason why you can't be precise if the universe is "absolute simplicity".
Jesus died for somebody's sins, but not mine
Prove it? Where will you be in 100 years? Proof enough. Evidence, at least.
"Sentience is always a very complex concept". Who says? The egoic one who has trapped you here? Of course! That's what makes it a trap.
I don't see the contridiction in saying the universe was made so that it cannot be understood. I understand that I cannot understand it. The greatest scientists, those who have more intelligence in the tip of thier little pinkie than I do in my entire self, will never understand completely. It's like a mirage that keeps moving out into the distance.
God, or whatever term you want to use, cannot fill the blanks because, again, God does not deal with illusion. Also, in Reality (outside of the illusion) there are no blanks to fill, and in fact there is nothing to know.
The universe is a product of the egoic mind made to be a hiding place from God. God had nothing to do with it, and is not even aware that we think it is real.
Language is a complex and completely inadequate means to describe the simplicity of Reality. Anything that can be described using words cannot truly exist.
You are perfect and you don't know it. You are immortal and it may take you hundreds of thousands of years to accept that. You cannot choose what you must learn, you can only choose when you will accept it. Why wait? We may have fun here, but all in all it's a pretty horrible place. Anyone who thinks this a nice place is not paying attention. You, like everyone, will at some point get to the place where you say "There must be a better way". Why wait? Choose again. Now.
I'll be dead in 100 years. That's evidence?
Sentience is the proccess of taking external stimuli, interpereting it and adding context to it. That is extremely complex. If sentience was a simple concept, we would all add the same context to everything we perceive.
This may be the part of a misunderstanding on my behalf, but the implication I took from what you said was that the universe was created for the purpose of not being understood.
What I meant was the human proccess of using a god concept to fill in the as perceived blanks.
I can't make heads or tails of this. Care to elaborate?
So, if I were to give you a crystal clear description of the black on the outside, white on the inside coffee mug sitting in front of me right now, that would prove that the coffee mug doesn't exist? Saying that it is very difficult to describe the universe in words is one thing, but discounting the reality of something that can be described makes no sense.
Ok, you've really lost me here. I know I'm not immortal. I know I'm not perfect. No amount of reasonable doubt is going to prove that to me. You're really going to have to back that up with something if you want me to even consider that.
Jesus died for somebody's sins, but not mine
Those who say Gerald Ford is dead and those who say Gerald Ford is alive: Both are mistaken.
"You've been mostly dead all day." - Andre the Giant, The Princess Bride
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Seems some of this sttuff only makes sense if you have taken an especially large ammount of psychadelic drugs.
Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team
>>I'll be dead in 100 years. That's evidence?
Yes. I said the deception is almost complete and self-inflicted. We are already lost in the failures of language. There are multiple meanings of the word that is spelled y-o-u. There is You ( the real YOU - capital Y) and then there is you ( lower case y - the illusion). you don't know who You are; the Mind that is You made you through projection; You are immortal; you are not.
>> Sentience is the proccess of taking external stimuli, ...
There is no such thing as external stimuli. There is nothing outside of You because there is nothing outside of Mind. The universe that you and i think we see is a projected illusion and is not real. Perception is not a process of taking something in, it is a process of projecting outward.
Yes, you interpreted my confusing language correctly: the universe was made (projected) purposefully so that it cannot be understood. There are many reasons for that. One reason is to keep you (lower case y) occupied with trying to understand it so that You (upper case) will be too busy to accept the truth.
Yes, the god concept is used to fill in the blanks created by the fact the the illusionary universe cannot be understood. Thus the ol' cop out of "god works in mysterious ways" to explain something the fundie cannot explain.
Here is an explanation of spiritual evolution:
Let's try a fill-in-the-blank thing. Here is the primary statement that mankind has attempted to answer:
"God is _______________."
The blank can be filled in with a noun, an adjective, a verb, or what ever. It can even be filled in with the word "nonexistent".
After a while, we realize the way to answer the question is not to fill in the blank, but to eliminate the blank and move the period:
"God is."
After more acceptance you take away the second word:
"God."
Soon we see the inadequacy of that statement and we arrive with the simple truth:
" "
(sorry about the g-o-d word, but there really is no word that actually works)
you are not immortal, but You are. you are not perfect, but You are.
you may be wondering how many Yous there are. (Is Yous the plural of You?) There is only One. You and I are the same. There is only One Mind - everything else is an unreal, projected illusion. I am typing this message to Myself.
>>Those who say Gerald Ford is dead and those who say Gerald Ford is alive: Both are mistaken.
You are more correct than you realize. Perhaps if you pray hard enough, the Flying Spaghetti Monster will explain.
>> Seems some of this sttuff only makes sense if you have taken an especially large ammount of psychadelic drugs.
Nah. It doesn't work. I already tried it. A hell of a lot of fun, but after a while it only confuses you. (Damn it! where did I put my rolling papers?)
Ok, I don't really understand what you are trying to say, but let me take a stab at it.
We are all psychic incorporeal minds, fusing together to create a world for ourselves outside of the ‘Reality’ that is nothingness? We are hiding from God by taking refuge within this fantasy world of ours? We do not understand it because we will always unconsciously extend the boundaries of it’s complexity to beyond our present reach?
Am I at all close?
Whether what I just said corresponds to what you are trying to say or not, how would you know of this 'Reality' of which you speak in the first place?
Flying Spaghetti Monster -- Great Almighty God? Or GREATEST Almighty God?
Yes! Beautiful!
>> We are all psychic incorporeal minds, fusing together to create a world for ourselves outside of the ‘Reality’ that is nothingness?
All that is real is Reality. Call it what you want. God. Truth. Reality. Spirit. That's all there is. There is only One. We are not minds (plural) only Mind. And there is only One. In the One Mind, crept a tiny mad idea that separation is possible. This tiny mad idea caused a projection that APPEARED to CREATE separation. But it is not possible to separate from Oneness. So the projection is not real - it is an illusion. The illusion is that there is a physical universe that is populated by separate physical things; rocks, planets, stars, beings. The Truth is these illusions are not real. We cannot change what we are, but we CAN believe we are something we are not. And, we are free to believe this for as "long" as we want. It is a dream, and we have the choice to choose when to awaken from it.
>>We are hiding from God by taking refuge within this fantasy world of ours?
YES!!! Because along with the tiny mad idea that we could actually be seperate, came ....... guilt. We are all guilty (so we think), and so we need to hide from ...... God. Ane the best way to do that is to "make" a place where God can't go. God is not here!
>>We do not understand it because we will always unconsciously extend the boundaries of it’s complexity to beyond our present reach?
YES YES YES! These wonderful, superior intellects like the beautiful Stephen Hawking cannot get any closer to "the end of knowledge" the "Grand Unified Theory" because it will always out pace them. It's a kind of joke that we play upon ourselves.
>>how would you know of this 'Reality' of which you speak in the first place...?
First, like I said, humams cannot know Reality. We can know "of Reality" like you said, or we can know what it is not.
Carl Jung once said something like you cannot solve a problem from within the problem. Of course, he was talking about mental illness, and must have ment something like the mentally ill cannot cure the mentally ill. But it realates to this. We are trapped in this illusion because it is an absolutely ingenious prison. It is almost totally convencing. If you jab yourself with a ice pick, it hurts. That "proves" that you are "real". If you "die", that "proves" that you were real. And that "proof" is enough to keep you here. The only way out, the only way to awaken from this dream of pain, separation and death is to CHOOSE to to awaken to Reality.
It will happen, and that is because it already has. (Remember, there is not such thing as time). And the reason it already has is becuase .... because it was an illusion, it didn't really happen anyway.
Now.... you can choose to awaken on your own. But that has already taken hundreds of thousands of bloody dufficult years, and it will take many many more. OR... you can accept help from outside the illusion. It is available, but the world rejects it because to the world it does not make any sense. Not only that, since it is true, it means the world does not exist, and the world will not accept that.
Wow! From what you said, you sound like you know of this. But then, we all know of it because the "we" is actually One. You see, there is nothing to learn, there is nothing to do... except "remember" what we already know, and accept that we are of the One. And when that happens, the universe will cease to SEEM to be. All of this will simply desolve into the timless, eternal, perfect Reality of the eternal Now.
So, 'God' is the name you are giving to the 'Reality'? Or is 'God' an actual supreme intelligence?
I assume that certain problems presented by, say, causality, are only things invented by us to contain ourselves within our dream world?
And you didn't answer my first question. How would you know of this 'Reality' if you yourself are trapped within it?
You have explained that if it were true we wouldn't know about it, but that doesn't really explain how you know about it, yourself.
The concept seems to be, at best, an interesting science fiction movie. Though, I don’t know how you would illustrate immaterial.
Flying Spaghetti Monster -- Great Almighty God? Or GREATEST Almighty God?
Use of the word "God" may be unfortunate because there is so much that goes along with that term that can create confusion. Terms like Reality, Truth, Spirit are probably more appropriate because they are less loaded with preconception. However, the word "God" is the word used by my Teacher. That is because the Teaching that has been provided is a correction to the completely erroneous beliefs of Christianity, beliefs that are erroneous because they are primarily based on the Bible which has plagued mankind since it was assembled by the Council of Nicaea.
God is all there is. Pure Spirit without physical being. Physical manifestations are projected illusions. This is not new. Many have questioned the existance of physical "things" - spiritualists and scientists. Subsitute whatever word you prefer if the word God does not work for you.
Yes, the Mind of God (again, all that is real) is timeless perfection. What we perceive as problems (hang nails, cars that don't run, loved ones dying, atomic bombs destroying civilization, etc) are projected illusions and are not real. God is not aware of problems because they are not real, and God does not deal with or recognize illusion.
>>How would you know of this 'Reality' if you yourself are trapped within it?
That was the point I attempted to make by referencing Carl Jung's saying that mental illness cannot be cured from within mental illness. The mentally ill person needs the help of someone who is not mentally ill. We, by ourselves, cannot get out of this egoic trap because it is so ingenious and so relentless. We must accept guidance from outside of this illusion we call the world. I know of it because I have accepted such guidance.
Yes, it sounds like science fiction. It has taken me around 15 years to finally "see" it. When I began to get it, it was a true epiphany. Now it is the only thing that makes any sense. Does a universe of "stuff" existing in time forever make sense? Does a ruling god who sent his only son to be slaughtered as a blood sacrifice make any sense? Doesn't the thought of "no time" make more sense than things existing forever or just simply coming into existance? It answers ALL questions: why is there war? why is there pain? who am I? why do I have to die? where did I come from? why did I just dump my coffee on the floor? It answers EVERY question that you can come up with.
Once you can accept the fact that this is all illusion you are on your way.
You have accepted such guidance?
So, have you experienced this 'Reality' or do you accept it on faith because it just makes sense?
And, as far as my other question goes; is 'God' the 'Reality' or is it another, perhaps more powerful, incorporeal mind? Please either answer 'Reality' or "another mind' or 'neither', then give your explanation. That way I can better understand the point you are trying to make. Your previous answer was unclear to me.
And one more question that I haven't asked you - what is death in this illusion? Is it a release from the dream world? Or are we perhaps reborn within it?
Flying Spaghetti Monster -- Great Almighty God? Or GREATEST Almighty God?
No, it is not possible for a human to experience true Reality simply because illusion cannot experience Reality. You get one or the other. Reality or illusion, not both. However, you can become intellectually aware that THIS is NOT Reality, and that Reality does indeed exist. So, I guess you would have to call that a type of faith. But that's no big deal. There are all kinds of faith.
Basically, my acceptance of this is based on a 15+ year period of the process of elimination that took place in conjunction with study. The thought of god in heaven who had his son slaughtered is no more believeable than Apollo, Zeus, Monster Slayer, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster. I didn't accept it because it made sense; in fact it didn't at first. I accepted it because I could tell there was something very honest and true about it and that kept me going unitl I realized that there is nothing that will discount it once you understand it.
Reality. God is the only Reality. That is because there is no separation in Reality. It is Unity. Throw out the word God if you like. Reality is Mind. It does not create, but it does extend. Reality extended into the Mind that is dreaming this nasty little dream, but there is no place where the extended Mind stops and the extending Mind begins. Sorry for the confusion, but again, it is not possible to accurately desribe or understand Reality using language and the human brain. Also, I am not the best source to attempt to explain this. I am simply a student.
There is no death. All things in the illusion are illusions. Even the illusion will not die. Once Mind awakens to Truth, the illusion will simply disappear into the nothing from where it seems to have come. When you and I die, the Mind that is dreaming this dream will continue dreaming until it awakens. There is no way to determine what it will come up with next because the dream is quite literally insane.
So, essentially, you are saying that, contrary to popular theistic belief, there is no one god, but we are all gods deceiving ourselves? Rather than existing eternally in the great void that is 'Reality', we occupy ourselves by creating this dream world, then force ourselves into ignorance of it?
Flying Spaghetti Monster -- Great Almighty God? Or GREATEST Almighty God?
I must be the only one who thinks this guy is yanking our chain.
It's crossed my mind, but it isn't any more irrational of a belief than the Christian god. If he is just yankin' my chain he sure is going through a lot of trouble to do it. Either way, it's an interesting concept - entertaining at least. Whether Hogspanker actually believes it or not is anyone's guess.
Flying Spaghetti Monster -- Great Almighty God? Or GREATEST Almighty God?
So the scientology nuts have it right and we're all gods then eh?
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
I thought scientologists believed something about alien spirits living inside us that died in a volcano... or something like that. I've never really researched it though.
Flying Spaghetti Monster -- Great Almighty God? Or GREATEST Almighty God?
I would suggest a brief study of it then. 30 minutes of browsing through a few articles should be enough to get the basic idea. I find scientology to be simultaneously the most dangerous religion in the world and the most conductive religion to the atheist point of view. After all, it proves conclusively how a religion can be created and widely accepted in a very short period of time. But many of it's practices are medically and psychologically disgusting. And ironically the church of scientology no longer follows all of Hubbards original precepts. The very guy who created it lost all control of it on his death bed.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
God had no time to create time.
Will do. I know a little about it, but I could definitely benefit from a good bit of research on the subject.
To Pikachu:
0_o
Flying Spaghetti Monster -- Great Almighty God? Or GREATEST Almighty God?
>>...contrary to popular theistic belief, there is no one god, but we are all gods deceiving ourselves?
Yes, essentially. But again, we must be careful using the word God. You have to either be able to drop all the crap that goes along with that word, or if you can't do that, you have to quit using it. I use the words god and God because they have different meanings (lower case and uppercase). The word god refers to the rediculous and dangerous Santa Claus character that traditional religion has dreamed up. The word God refers to the Infinite Mind, of which there is only One, that has extened itself and accounts for all that is real. It is incorrect to say that we are gods because the use of the plural indicates seperation, which is not real. It is more correct to say that we are God. However, if you say that you must be aware that the word "we" does not refer to seperated beings but to the One exteded Mind that is dreaming this dream of death.
That brings up another very important point - a point that the human brain simply cannot comprehend. (I warn you, this is really going to sound like a crock of bull). The One Mind has extended itself. The extended portion of the One Mind is not separate from the One Mind - there is no point where the One stops and the exteded start. However, the One Mind does not dream, and the extended Mind does. It is like they are seperate and not seperate at the same time. This actually makes perfect sense. The dream that seems to have made this universe that we seem to live in NEVER HAPPENED. It is only an illusion.
>>...we occupy ourselves by creating this dream world, then force ourselves into ignorance of it?
Yes, because the instant we remember that it is a dream, it will simply disappear. It's sort of like the dreams we have in this world when we go to sleep. When you are dreaming, you don't step back from it and watch it like a video. It seems real while you are dreaming it. When you wake up, where is it? It never existed.
No, I am not yanking anybody's chain. That brings up a couple of points.
First, the common definition of the word "belief" contains within it the possibility that what is believed may be incorrect. I do not believe this, I accept it.
Secondly, this is not religion. I enjoy talking about it because the spiritual quest is the ONLY activity that is worthy of our effort. There is no attempt to "spread the word". There is no attempt to "save the world". THERE IS NO WORLD TO SAVE! Reality is not aware of this illusion, because in Reality IT NEVER HAPPENED. This, along with the fact that there is no time, means that there is no urgency to correct it. It my seem like it is taking millions of years for you and me and the other skinbags walking around to get out of this stinking little messy dream, but to Truth it is nonexistant. Truth does not argue. Truth does not scream. There is nothing to argue or scream about. Truth does not try to change your mind because your true Mind knows only Truth.
There is an urgency for us to get out of this dream because it is so painful. But that urgency is only for "us" - the sad little hairbags trapped in this dream of time who seem to cry, kill, get sick, loose, have great adventures, get rich, have wonderful lives, have horrible lives, and eventually seem to die. You may be having a beautiful life, but all in all, it really pretty awful. And Truth doesn't give a shit, because Truth does not even know of it.
Another beautiful thing about this is responsibility. There is no "out". There is no saviour who you can put all your "sins" upon. There is nothing that is going to "save" you by pulling you out of this nightmare. The responsibily it totally up to you. YOU have to make the choice. YOU are free to waller in this bloody mud hole for as long as you want. But the world will eventially get to a point where it says "There must be a better way". Every second of every day you choose - you choose between the dream and Truth. Choose again. Now.
You need to sit down (or go for a walk) and rethink this.
Maybe all you really want is attention.
People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.
You say you don't believe what you are saying; you accept it. You can use whatever word you like, but it all boils down to faith - faith just like all those other theists. You have no proof or evidence, only a concept that explains your world - a supernatural explanation. This is no different than any other theistic belief. Though, I’ll admit, it’s a bit more creative.
Just like many others, Christians mainly, you search out what scientists cannot currently explain and then insist that “God did it.” Or in your case, “We did it.” Just because science cannot currently explain something is not an excuse to thrust some kind of supernatural cause into the mix. As science answers questions, new ones will naturally come up. And when those are answered, more will come up. This is not because there is no end to questions, but because we have only touched the tip of the iceberg as far as knowledge goes. Theistic deities will always retreat to the unknown until it becomes explained, then they will become the new answers to the newest questions. Yours is no different than this ‘God of the Gaps’ game that the theists so love to play.
I would be more inclined to believe in the irrational god of the Bible than your ‘theory’ (unscientific). Just because you, or whoever you learned it from, are capable of thinking up this concept and making it work, outside of natural law, mind you, does not mean it is true. Again, we have to refer back to the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Someone just thought it up one day. That doesn’t mean it is a possibility.
Just another point: Just as I and several others have already pointed out, you cannot make this claim of your ‘Reality’ since you already admit it is impossible to know about it. If no one can know of it, then neither can you. This is the biggest flaw of the whole idea, which, again, it is only an idea.
Flying Spaghetti Monster -- Great Almighty God? Or GREATEST Almighty God?
>>Maybe you are having trouble comprehending reality.
All of us trapped in this world are having trouble comprehending reality. In fact, we can't.
>>You say everybody is mistaken. And you’re not!?
No. I agree, everybody is mistaken. I include myself in that group. Sorry that I sound arrogant. I don't mean to be. It's just that I get excited, and I am passionate about this.
>>What is “the Infinite Mind” ?
That's one of the most significant question you can ask. I don't have an answer for you, but if you keep asking that question, you will not fail to get closer to the answer.
>>I’m not dreaming of death.
Those who are unaware that they are trapped will never get out.
>>You are not making any sense, how does “One Mind” extend? Prove there is “One Mind”.
Of course it doesn't make any sense. If it made sense to our perceptive brains, we would all accept it and this illusion would evaporate. I cannot tell you HOW One Mind extends. I have a brain like you and it is beyond our capability to understand.
You asked twice for proof. Proof within illusion is not possible. The fundies "prove" that the Bible is the truth by spewing crap from the Bible. That doesn't prove anything. If I were to ask you to prove the at physical universe actually exists, you would point to the physical universe. That's exactly the same thing and does not prove anything. I can't prove what you ask. So now, I ask you: prove that the physical universe exists.
>>Maybe all you really want is attention.
Dang! You caught me. I love attention. Ya want I should tell ya about my collection of teeny little choo choo trains?
>>...but it all boils down to faith
Yes, it does. Simply because it is not possible for people to *really* understand it. But don't be afraid of faith - we live our lives on it. Little faiths to big faiths. You turn the key and have faith the truck will start. You read a piece of paper that tells you how much money you have in the bank and you have faith that it's actually there. You have faith your girlfriend is not running around on you. You have faith in your abilities. You open your eyes and "see" something, and you have faith that it's actually there. And on and on... up to having faith about the nature of Reality. And no, I have no proof - there is none. You won't accept this, but there is no way to prove anything. Proof is not possible within an illusion.
I have been a kind of scientist most of my life (anthropology, archaeology, electronics and computer science). I am aware of the scientific method. I don't know what "God of the gaps" means, but the difference between what I am trying to describe and the explanation provided by traditional theists is in the illusion of the physical universe. Traditional religion says god created the physical universe. My understanding is that there is no physical universe.
>>I would be more inclined to believe in the irrational god of the Bible than your ‘theory’ (unscientific).
Well sure. That's why billions of folks down through the ages have believed the story in the Bible. If it wasn't believable, NOBODY WOULD BELIEVE IT. That's part of the trap. If somebody is going to make up a story that they want people to believe, they are not going to make it unbelieable. If somebody comes along and tells a physical being that physical reality does not exist, they probably will not be believed. But that is where we are. If you attempt to explain to an uneducated person the implications of quantum theory and relativity (an area of science that is beginning to question the existence of "things" physical) they will think you are crazy and tell you to take a hike.
>> If no one can know of it, then neither can you.
Language is important here. You can "know of it" but in the illusion you can't "know it". If you knew it, you would not be here. On a very simple level, it is like I "know of" being able to bench press 350 pounds, but I don't "know it" because I can't do that.
Reality is the Easter Bunny. Or Silly putty, I forget just which.
Sorry for my recent absenteeism, Hogspanker, I've been hella busy over the past few days. That being said, I'm going to backtrack post on the response you left to me a couple of days ago. Sorry for the wait and thanks for taking the time to post in the first place. Let the games begin... uh, again.
Ok, that definetly clarifies what you had to say. However, I think it's safe to say that you are seperating consiousness from the physical body. As far as I can tell, conciousness is a by-product of the physical rather than a seperate entity. I don't believe conciousness can outlive the body, since it would not exist without the body.
External stimuli does exist, in fact, the individual is composed basically of proccessed stimuli. Every experience the individual has is digested and added to contextually. These experiences with context allow us to form opinions and ideas unique to the individual. The irony here is that external stimuli is responsible for you formulating your ideas about the non-existance of external stimuli.
You're explaination doesn't cover it for me. If the universe is the product of the mind, then how could it be so difficult for the mind to interperet?
agreed, though it's not just fundies who do this.
[quote
Let's try a fill-in-the-blank thing. Here is the primary statement that mankind has attempted to answer:
"God is _______________."
The blank can be filled in with a noun, an adjective, a verb, or what ever. It can even be filled in with the word "nonexistent".
After a while, we realize the way to answer the question is not to fill in the blank, but to eliminate the blank and move the period:
"God is."
After more acceptance you take away the second word:
"God."
Soon we see the inadequacy of that statement and we arrive with the simple truth:
" "
This would work better for me if it was "God isn't".
Sorry, but there is no "me" that is immortal or perfect. I know who I am, I'm confident in my strengths and cautious of my weaknesses. I don't believe that you believe your typing to yourself because if you did, you'd probably just use a text editor.
Jesus died for somebody's sins, but not mine