Why God Certainly Exists...
Offline ...But before I get to that, a few words directed to, and about, an OVERWHELMING majority of Atheists and Christians...
First, I find it quite troubling that you all consistently and with no hesitation conflate the following terms: "God", "Religion", "Bible", "Christianity".
God is NOT religion - in truth, religion has nothing to do with God. Rather it is a set of rituals, practices, and beliefs held by a common population. I assumed this was common knowledge, but after reading Dawkins latest book (and many posts on this forum) I was appalled at how many times the conflation occurred – and at how it is rarely if ever corrected.
God is NOT the Bible (or any "holy book"
- the Bible is simply a book. Look, I understand that when confronting a Christian it is perhaps best to do so on their 'home-turf' – however, not even deep in the recesses of the archives of the volumes of Christian Doctrine does it say anywhere that the Bible is God. Please, let both sides stop using this book to make claims about God (but by all means feel free to do so when constructing claims about Christianity).
God is NOT Christianity – despite the strong wishes on both sides, God is not Christianity. Unfortunately, it seems that while fully aware of the distinction, Atheists refuse to make it. Maybe this is because 98% of you so-called Atheists are in actuality only really anti-Christianity. Maybe you get a kick out of pointing out obvious contradiction, and refuse to step out of your Christianity/God comfort zone where truth is less ‘obvious’, and the logic a little more complex. Maybe you’ve had a bad experience with a supposedly Christian person or a non-denominational church…shit – we’ve all been there. Whatever your reason for doing so, enough is enough. And if your one of those who was just plain ignorant (most likely a Christian) – well now you know. Regardless of what you heard or think you know, God is not owned by, was not created/invented by, God is NOT Christianity.
Quickly though, do any of you know what “God” denotes? What is God? Anyone?
God is quite simply, in the lowest common denominator, if he exists, The Creator of the Universe.
Ok? Good…
So let me just get straight to it – God certainly exists.
There is a certain argument that when Atheists encounter, they either ignore it (a la Dawkins), or unknowingly conclude that a known and verified scientific principle (which they themselves use to defend evolution and attack creationism) is wrong. I am of course talking about the Cosmological Argument. It has many forms but the gist is, 1. There is a cause for every effect. 2. It is in theory possible to trace this cause/effect chain back infinitely. 3. However, because causes/effects occur in time there is no regressive infinite chain. 4. Thus, there must be a first cause that is not itself an effect. 5. This first cause is God.
The standard Atheistic replies are directed at 3 and 5. They’ll say, “An infinite chain is possible and perhaps actual, and besides even if its not, all you have is a first cause…not the God of the Bible, not the God of Christianity, blah, blah, blah…”
So lets talk about infinite chains - either time stretches back infinitely, or it doesn’t.
Which is it going to be Atheist? For, if you say to the infinite chain, “yes”, you are directly countering the scientific fact that the Universe has an age! This is indisputable fact. We now know that the universe is expanding. Confirmation of this happens daily with the observation of redshifts of stars increasing over time and in proportion to distance. To quote Stephen Hawking, “The beginning of the universe is the beginning of time.” Further, you Atheists use this claim to bolster arguments against literal Creationism and the view that the earth was formed in seven days! You can’t have it both ways – remember either time stretches back infinitely, or it doesn’t, there is no third choice.
What about 5? “Ok, so we have a first cause. An uncaused causer, the Unmoved Mover, Uncreated Creator… what we do not have the God of the Bible, not the God of Christianity, blah, blah, blah…”
Were you paying attention? God is not Christianity, the Bible, religion, etc. So why does the truth about God have to reflect Christianity, the Bible, religion, etc.? The answer is - it doesn’t.
God stands alone, without need for “holy books”, churches, ceremony, war, violence, hate, praise, worship, religion, Islam, Christianity, terrorism, patriotism, and yes even your belief…or mine for that matter.
Regardless, God most certainly exists - accept it and respect it – or don’t.
Just be sure to toe your own lines.
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First off, even just reading the whole child sex slave scenario makes me sick. What kind of sick bastard would thank god for that?!?!?!
And anyways..if energy is neither created or destroyed, how can there be a time zero? I don't like the definition of time beginning with the universe. If the universe began with matter exploding from a tiny point, what do we call the time that tiny point was in existance? And in space, a vaccum with no matter, we'd probably still say time exists.
AND if there was a creator, without something creating it, why go on insisting it has a concious mind? It could more easily be just some explosion.
All this post has got me thinking so far is the universe probably dosn't exist in the first place and maybe I'm dreaming all this bullshit.....but then where'd I come from...hey maybe we should start a post that makes some f***in' sense.....
"We are the star things harvesting the star energy"
-Carl Sagan
It's good that it makes you sick. That's why I picked it. It's just about the most pathological evil there is.
I don't think anyone thanks god for it. My whole point was about god being praiseworthy. If god is praiseworthy for the good (including existence itself) he's equally "curseworthy" for the evil.
if there was nothing but vacuum in the universe, time would not be measurable; nothing would ever change.
I hope that when the world comes to an end I can breathe a sigh of relief, because there will be so much to look forward to.
Damn, I skipped out for a few days and missed my chance to deal with his rambling responses to my ramblings. I've given up on trying to find a common-sense way of talking about compact 4-dimensional manifolds without boundary, though.
Yes. Time is relational - if there is no matter, no momentum, no movement, how would there be time?
But then this leads me to a second problem with the initial statement... quantum theory tells us that there can be no such thing as a literal vacuum... empty spaces seethes with virtual particles
"Hitler burned people like Anne Frank, for that we call him evil.
"God" burns Anne Frank eternally. For that, theists call him 'good.'
OK, we grant that as a supposition.
Not if they are all tied up and fed intravenously.
Impossible to improve life through any PERSONAL action: almost all cases. Though I admit that there were cases in which the child escaped, many have not only not escaped, but they were also murdered before any action to rescue them could have gone underway. If you need to see cases, watch Discovery Channel when the "FBI Files" are on (hopefully they're still running the series), and it's impossible to not notice a few episodes with precisely this thematics.
Impossible to end their existence: no case, but ending your own existence yourself means suicide, which, from my knowledge, is quite a big sin. So they will not go to heaven, and they will suffer eternal damnation. Thus reducing their eternal existence to suffering in this life and suffering in the afterlife as well.
There you have it. Satisfied? I also ran a local "Iraqui Muslim boy whose family was killed by Christian soldiers and took revenge before being shot to death" campaign with quite the same object in mind, a kind of story that proves beyond any doubt that some people are simply created in order to burn in Hell, and nothing more.
As Todangst some time ago said it: you should stop looking in a mirror when you type. It's really confusing for us. I've started to think that you might have MPS or something...
Inquisition - "The flames are all long gone, but the pain lingers on..."
http://rigoromortis.blogspot.com/
A different cosmological narrrative:
The Rig Veda describes the origin of the universe as:
"Then was not non-existence nor existence: there was no realm of air, no sky beyond it. What covered in, and where? and what gave shelter? Was water there, unfathomed depth of water? Death was not then, nor was there aught immortal: no sign was there, the day's and night's divider. That One Thing, breathless, breathed by its own nature: apart from it was nothing whatsoever. Darkness there was at first concealed in darkness this. All was indiscriminated chaos. All that existed then was void and form less: by the great power of Warmth was born that Unit. Thereafter rose Desire in the beginning, Desire, the primal seed and germ of Spirit. Sages who searched with their heart's thought discovered the existent's kinship in the non-existent. Transversely was their severing line extended: what was above it then, and what below it? There were begetters, there were mighty forces, free action here and energy up yonder. Who verily knows and who can here declare it, whence it was born and whence comes this creation? The devas are later than this world's production. Who knows then whence it first came into being? He, the first origin of this creation, whether he formed it all or did not form it, Whose eye controls this world in highest heaven, he verily knows it, or perhaps he knows not" - (Rig Veda 10.129.1-7)
Here is the Wikipedia article on 'hindu cosmology' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu_cosmology
what do you think about cosmology this narrative tradition, Chukwu? do you think it fits with your belief about a cosmological argument? does it perhaps provide an alternative to your worldview?
also, what do the rest of you think? i find it interesting that the cosmological age of the universe in the Rig Veda is on the same scale (billions of years) as modern cosmology.
Ethics and aesthetics are one
-Wittgenstein
Your general arrogance and deviant interpolation of what you label a "gift" is beyond shocking. Aside from this - the pretense of your absolutes is assuming that a person ALWAYS has the choice concerning ALL things that occur in their life.
You want a scenario where it is IMPOSSIBLE for the child to either improve their life or end their existence? A child confined to a cell that is being sedated. Such a scenrio negates any plausablility of the child to make a choice in any reguard. How would a sedated child improve their life while someone else is forcing it another direction? How would a sedated child end their life if someone else is forcing its retention?
How is ALL life a gift? Living with excruciating pain is as much a gift as a glop of dogshit laced with anthrax is a "gift". How twisted is your mind? Do you also consider a bullet penetrating your body to be a "gift"?
how arrogant and ironic that Chukwu would claim he has "thrashed you intellectually"
all he has done is pretend words mean something else and pretend that cause cannot have an infinite regression.