I do not classify as 'Athiest', but I certainly classify as anti-religion

Leuthesius
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I do not classify as 'Athiest', but I certainly classify as anti-religion

The first thing I would like to say is to Sapient and all of the others who are spearheading this movement is simple: Bravo. Bra-fucking-vo. I applaud you for this more than you know. I saw the newscasts on your website and I nearly died. Laughing.

 Christianity is a virus. Christianity, especially in the grand ol' US of A is a virus primarily because of the business attitude of the Church. The hypocracy of the Church. The villainy of the Church.

 My belief is something that I simply cannot deny. I have had experiences which could not be explained in any other means aside from the possibility of a supreme being. I have nearly died more times than I can count, from freak accidents in the home (which in reality... were really just that) to coming within inches of death in near traffic accidents. I've seen things with my own eyes that I cannot explain, and I have had dreams in which I cannot explain. You can find those here: "http://dreamsofzayntahirziya.blogspot.com/" . Specifically observe the April 11th, 1998 dream. The link to higher powers there would be evident if indeed such a thing existed.

 How religion is forced upon youth is why I agree with you. Obviously I'm being a bit hypocritical in agreeing with you when I'm clearly not agreeing with you on the level that you are all about. When I was five years old, I was forced to go to Church. I was bored. I found it useless. They kept telling me about people like Noah, and Moses, and Jews, and blah blah fucking blah. I didn't care... I wanted to go home and play with my friends. I wanted to go home and spend time drawing, or enjoying myself. Church was a prison to me. They tried so hard to get me to "accept Jesus" in my heart, and I kept refusing to even look at them. It didn't feel right. What was I supposed to know at the age of five about these things? What COULD I know about these things? It's not like I'm "Born Christian" or anything. 

 Here's my defining point: I believe Jesus EXISTED. I believe the Prophet Muhammad EXISTED. I believe God EXISTS. But that does NOT mean that I believe that Jesus and/or Muhammad are watching over me like some gargoyle like vigil stance. I believe they are DEAD, and have been for hundreds upon hundreds of years.

 I believe that Jesus was a teacher just as the Prophet Muhammad was a teacher. They taught that love and kindness were the two things that were most important in the world.

 Look at religion and what it has done to those messages! The Crusades? What the fucking hell? Since when is a message about love and peace and charity suddenly requiring turning plowshares to swords, and sending young men (and women) off to die? That is the hypocracy of the "Church". Yeessss, they can all preach good will, but they have the monopoly on heaven, sort of what whatsisface said on the Da Vinci code.

 I live my life as someone who refuses to consider himself a "Christian" or a "Jew" or a "Muslim" or even an "Atheist". My experiences are too much to ignore. My heart is too much to ignore. Either I'm schizophrenic or God occasionally talks back to me (in the form of dreams). Either I have an active imagination, or I have seen not one but two angels in my life. I understand that active imagination and schizophrenia are the more likely culprits for these, but then again--Stephen Hawking has also said that there is no scientific way (yet) to show that the Universe was created and thus there must be a God.

 

In the United States, we have a plague called the "Sunday Christian". Hell--my last girlfriend was one of those. Good Lawdie. She was going on about being Methodist, wanting to find a Church and whatnot. She also said that she probably wouldn't be able to be with me because I hadn't "accepted Jesus into my heart". Yet... where does all of that go? She was ready to tear my clothes off on the first date, she fucked me like a wild animal, and to top it off she blew me in my car on her lunch break. Then to top it off she cheated on me. Yeeaeah. There's a real Christian for you.

They all talk the talk, but most of them can't walk the walk. They use Christianity as a weapon. An excuse. A way for them to get away with all of the bad things they've done in life. "Jesus died for my sins so I'm going to heaven! Yay!" Who cares if they covet their neighbor's belongings? Who cares if they hate on people, treat them badly, or abuse one another? Jesus died for their sins so they're ok!

In the mean time, I actually walk the walk, but refuse to do so in the name of Christianity. Prime reason? I'm not a fucking Christian. I refuse to be even SLIGHTLY associated with the [general] pisspot of society. I live my life on moral principle. Ya know... that thing that Jesus was teaching to begin with? That Christianity has conveniently ignored for the message of "believe in Jesus or you go to hell!"

Irony that the Church advertises salvation in direct opposition to what their great savior was even trying to accomplish. For those of you who are religious, this is your world. A world of stupidity, hypocracy, selfishness, war, tyranny, and greed.

But--to counter what is said to a point. Theism is not irrational. The people who abuse theism are irrational. When they force it on a young child on the bases of "or else you'll go to hell", and then enforce that social stigma... is this free will? Or is this belief out of fear?

The message of Theism has been lost for hundreds upon hundreds of years. There is no real recovery at this point. REASON, has also been lost. I am a theist by technicality....though I paid homage to the Ancient Greek Gods upon Mount Olympus' peak back in 05'. So maybe by technicality I'm a polytheist. In general, I simply accept that there are forces in the universe that may never be explained.

When Islamists stop putting bombs on their chests and throwing themselves into crowds of innocent people for Allah, and when Christian fanatics stop burning down abortion clinics (and the people inside) for God, then maybe religion and thus theism will have a bit of credibility back. Until then? Fuck them both.

I know that God is not watching over me. If God created man in his own image, then why in the hell would he spend his time watching over everyone? He'd have more interesting things to do. You know... like playing Halo3. Any time in my life that I've needed some kind of divine intervention, I've gotten it. That doesn't mean I expect him to be there next time. Hell.. with 6 billion+ other people he has to take care of... would you expect it? 

 I apologize for my split hair rambling... I am by no means an English major and some of my points (and fallacies) may roll off like water on a duck's back. But I want to again state first and foremost--as a believer of a supreme being, that this website and what it stands for is something that I would happily stand by for the sake of reason. For the sake of the innocence lost by small children out of fear of hell and damnation by some crotchety old bag at the pulpit who secretly wants to sodomize them.

For the sake of bringing an end to the bullshit that is the American Sunday Christian. Because most Christians refuse to even question their faith, their faith is weak. Therefore if you say ANYTHING against their faith they automatically become irate and they HATE you for it because "how could you possibly understand my belief in god!?" (Simple... you're only there to fuck your neighbor's wife you stupid fucking infidelic bastard.)

Speaking as a past Pagan. A past Wiccan. A past Atheist. A past Agnostic---and now as nothing but myself and my own personal beliefs (which is what they should be anyways--personal). I invite all American Sunday Christians to actually LISTEN to what the people who run this place have to say. It will either break your religious bond to the bullshit that is the Church, or it will strengthen your PERSONAL bond with God.

Regardless of what happens... what matters is whether or not your heart is truly part of it. What YOU want. Not what your parents or your preacher want.  Your will. Your life. YOUR fucking choice.

-Leu

 

PS--If anyone feels like sending me a PM with this edited up in a more ah... "eloquent" manner, please feel free. I suck at this shit. 

- Mr. Atheist says, "Find faith in truth, not truth in faith"
- Leuthesius the Theist says, "I agree."
- Leuthesius the Theist also says, "A blind follower of a religion might as well be a blind follower of nothing."


Strafio
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Sounds like we mostly agree

Sounds like we mostly agree on political issues and moral issues (which is the most important thing).
We still believe that any kind of supernaturalism is based on a misunderstanding though. That such beliefs can us from a more accurate (and therefore more useful) understanding of the self and world.

Here is a good thread that outlines the argument against there being a God in general. I'd be interested to hear your comments on it.
Welcome to RSS. Smile


Leuthesius
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The biggest thing you have

The biggest thing you have to realize is that supernaturalism has been politicized. By being anti-religion and anti-god, you are being political to a high degree--especially in the United States these days. I've already talked with Rook and a few others in Stickam and I feel like they've accepted my views as I have accepted them. At least to the point that they can respect that I am what I am and who I am. Faith is baseless, I understand that. As a former atheist you are actually doing little more than preaching to the choir as far as beating down supernaturalism infront of me. Trust me--I get it.

The most important part of this from my point of view is not the faith or the religion or the god. It is striking down those who use it to control other people. From childhood to adulthood. It's a plague. I think that a lot of the resignations from religion are actually coming from a political standpoint more than a standpoint of faith. Faith is personal. It is baseless yes, but it is still very personal. Politics are not.

As a world traveler I have seen much more than most people would dream of. I have seen the richest and the poorest. The faithful and the unfaithful. The degenerates, and the rest of the people who aren't in politics. My understanding is by no means absolute, but I do carry with me a (I feel) unique view on life and the necessity of virtuosity and morality.

The understanding of myself is a good part as for why I believe in a supreme being. I understand where my weaknesses are and therefore I understand why it is that I feel I need to 'know God'.

Hope that clears that up a bit. Please no preaching ;o, I've heard enough of that from the Church.

And thanks, I do believe I am going to enjoy my stay here. 

- Mr. Atheist says, "Find faith in truth, not truth in faith"
- Leuthesius the Theist says, "I agree."
- Leuthesius the Theist also says, "A blind follower of a religion might as well be a blind follower of nothing."


deludedgod
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Sir, if I could reach

Sir, if I could reach through the keyboard and shake your hand...

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

-Me

Books about atheism


Strafio
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Leuthesius wrote: As a

Leuthesius wrote:
As a former atheist you are actually doing little more than preaching to the choir as far as beating down supernaturalism infront of me. Trust me--I get it.

Umm... I'm not so sure about that...

Leuthesius wrote:
My belief is something that I simply cannot deny. I have had experiences which could not be explained in any other means aside from the possibility of a supreme being.

Quote:
I am a theist by technicality....though I paid homage to the Ancient Greek Gods upon Mount Olympus' peak back in 05'. So maybe by technicality I'm a polytheist. In general, I simply accept that there are forces in the universe that may never be explained.

Don't get me wrong, I think your position is sensible and pragmatic.
The objections against supernaturalism were purely in a philosophical context, of interest to those who want to understand the ultimate truth of things. I object to supernaturalism the same way I'd object to idealism or emotivism or another philosophical position I disagree with.

Quote:
Please no preaching ;o, I've heard enough of that from the Church.

Lol! I didn't mean to sound preachy. Smile
No pressure to pursue this supernaturalism debate.
Not everyone is a philosopher and there's a chance you might even be better off for it! Wink


Leuthesius
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Strafio wrote: Leuthesius

Strafio wrote:
Leuthesius wrote:
As a former atheist you are actually doing little more than preaching to the choir as far as beating down supernaturalism infront of me. Trust me--I get it.

Umm... I'm not so sure about that...

You may not be so sure, but I am. Probably more than I could ever explain. =/ It's really not easy to explain something so simple and stupid, if you catch the drift.


Quote:
Leuthesius wrote:
My belief is something that I simply cannot deny. I have had experiences which could not be explained in any other means aside from the possibility of a supreme being.

Quote:
I am a theist by technicality....though I paid homage to the Ancient Greek Gods upon Mount Olympus' peak back in 05'. So maybe by technicality I'm a polytheist. In general, I simply accept that there are forces in the universe that may never be explained.

Don't get me wrong, I think your position is sensible and pragmatic.
The objections against supernaturalism were purely in a philosophical context, of interest to those who want to understand the ultimate truth of things. I object to supernaturalism the same way I'd object to idealism or emotivism or another philosophical position I disagree with.

 Ah, ahkso. 

Quote:
Quote:
Please no preaching ;o, I've heard enough of that from the Church.

Lol! I didn't mean to sound preachy. Smile
No pressure to pursue this supernaturalism debate.
Not everyone is a philosopher and there's a chance you might even be better off for it! Wink

 I love philosophy. That's part of the reason I am who I am. I have what I know I need (at least right now). When I no longer need it... well, then I can let it all go. Smiling

- Mr. Atheist says, "Find faith in truth, not truth in faith"
- Leuthesius the Theist says, "I agree."
- Leuthesius the Theist also says, "A blind follower of a religion might as well be a blind follower of nothing."


Rev0lver
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im pretty much with you

im pretty much with you there. i believe in a possibility that there could be a god, just not the christian/muslim/hindu etc ones.


Strafio
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I think I understand... You

I think I understand...

You most definately win at life! Smile


Leuthesius
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*Takes a bow* 

*Takes a bow* 


Edger
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This is the thread I've

This is the thread I've been waiting for. I didn't join the "challenge" to convert Christians, Muslims, Jews, or horses to an atheistic mindset. I'm active in the discussion because I'm terribly concerned about Christian fundamentalism in America.

 

I think Leuthesius makes a solid point. We need to focus more on legislation and less on dogma. The latter is useless as we've seen time and time again. I understand the point of the "challenge" and I respect that. But it seems most fundamentalists, those this "challenge" was contived to roust, are missing the point. In turn, way too much Biblical psycho-babble surrounds the debate. Let's break it down. What are we all trying to do? I could care less what was or wasn't the intended meaning of Jimbo 8:29.  I care an awful lot about what was written in our constitution.


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I, peronally DO classify as

I, peronally DO classify as an atheist because I not only lack faith in any god - but, personally, reject the notion that a god could exist that did not develope by some evolutionary/natural process.

Whether it be currently explainable or not is irrelevant. For me, if there is a God - then the god must have come about by a natural process.

Besides being an atheist - I am also classifiable as a Universalist/Humanist. I attend UU Church services often - and will go this morning as I did last week.

Unlike other people - I feel no need to have others believe what I do. If anyone did need others to believe what they believe - they would desire such in vain - as no two people will EVER believe EXACTLY the same thing. Even in a fundamentalist church - the person's idea of Christ/Christianity will vary from person to person.

Not to say that fundamentalists don't get on my nerves. I never step against your general theist in philosophy... but when a person gets to the point where they obviuosly are thinking "you should believe what I do" (whether that person be theist/atheist) - that is when the intellectual gloves come off... 


Leuthesius
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Edger wrote: This is the

Edger wrote:

This is the thread I've been waiting for. I didn't join the "challenge" to convert Christians, Muslims, Jews, or horses to an atheistic mindset. I'm active in the discussion because I'm terribly concerned about Christian fundamentalism in America.

 I think Leuthesius makes a solid point. We need to focus more on legislation and less on dogma. The latter is useless as we've seen time and time again. I understand the point of the "challenge" and I respect that. But it seems most fundamentalists, those this "challenge" was contived to roust, are missing the point. In turn, way too much Biblical psycho-babble surrounds the debate. Let's break it down. What are we all trying to do? I could care less what was or wasn't the intended meaning of Jimbo 8:29. I care an awful lot about what was written in our constitution.

 Thank you. No offense to Atheists of course, but they [some of them] seem a little more concerned with making sure I don't believe in God than what is really important here: The constant mind-fucking of small children and the overall effect of political religion in our country. I beleive they are still doing the right thing, along with everyone else, but I don't think the focus is entirely on the right track.

Despite my theism, I'm joining this place for the sake of removing religion from our political spectrum. Changing people to atheists or agnostics--or simply FORCING the average American Sunday Christian to question their faith would be more than enough to change our country towards something that could be acceptable and non-fundamentalist. Removing the Church from the picture. Church is [supposed to be] about fellowship as it was previously mentioned somewhere, it is not about anti-abortion and other 'causes'. Simply having atheist fundies to counter them is just asking for things to become uncivil.

- Mr. Atheist says, "Find faith in truth, not truth in faith"
- Leuthesius the Theist says, "I agree."
- Leuthesius the Theist also says, "A blind follower of a religion might as well be a blind follower of nothing."


GreyhoundMama
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Excellent note! I feel like

Excellent note! I feel like many of you, that what we each personally believe isn't as important as not shoving it down anyone's throat. Most scientists will admit that there are TONS of things we can't explain. Yet. Maybe we'll explain them someday. Maybe we won't. To me it doesn't matter. What matters is that we keep an open mind and live as honestly as we can.

Welcome aboard, from another newbie! Smiling

Karen and her hounds
creating art ~ creating a new life