Colby R

I am not trying to disprove your faith at this point. I do not understand where you got the idea I was here to disprove your belief system. I was just responding to your attack of science. I am trying to show you that science teaches us about the world through evidence. Faith requires zero evidence and therefore is more comforting to many people.

Basically you said that science was hard to believe in because it is ever changing. If that is how you view the world and would rather rely on the constant comfort of faith that is your prerogative.

I think I see what the issue is now...

In your opinion belief in something without evidence, which is completely un-falsifiable, is very comforting to you. Trust in observations, data, and fact is unsettling because there may be new data tomorrow and every day thereafter.

For some it is a scary thought to have to live in the real world and not depend on the fall back plan of magic and saviors.

 I'm curious about this stat, can you please provide me with the information?  

Thanks. 

The U.S is said to be around 80% christian. It's an absurd statement to insinuate that all these millions of abortions are mostly non-christians.

I never thought that you were trying to disprove my faith and I was not attacking anyone. I dont believe in magic or have a fall back plan. The point of the quote was to say that I have a strong foundation in Christ and I could not see myself building a foundation for my life that was not strong. When someone tells me this is a fact, I take that to mean an absolute, no if and or buts. Often science says fact and it becomes sorta, inthe right conditions, well we think this is how it was so we assume this. I dont want to put my faith in that. I am not knocking all science but its fairly simple to see my point.

Let me take back a previous statement that you could not prove a faith wrong. If the Jesus tomb deal would have had conclusive evidence it was jesus' bones that would have done it for me. But they cant and people have tried for generations to debunk Christianity to no avail.

Also I do not have faith because I am afraid. I have faith in God because I choose as a rational person. If I am wrong I havent lost anything and if I am right I have gained everything. But its not about that, its about the relationship with Christ.

I would also ask if science has such great evidences and religion has none. Why are atheist's and non-believers in some sort of religion a vast minority in the world. I would say because religion does offer proof or evidence to its believers, in prayer. But of course that is dismissed as magical fantasy. It doesnt bother me that you dont believe really, the Bible says that not everyone will believe. But I want everyone to believe and have a better hope.

I never said that more non-christians recieved abotions than Christians. I said the CHURCH does not support abortion, meaning the doctrine of the Church even the Catholic Church. It would numericly stand to reason though that since the majority of Americans assoctiate themselves as Christians and only about 9% of america claims to be athiest, Christians would get more abortions.

I will make a very profound statement here. The worst part of and biggest downfall of Christianity is Christians. We are still people we still make mistakes. I agree that we should not hold anyone to our standard when we cant live up to it ourselves. We are hypocrits just like everyone else. Was that a surprise.

I understand there are new studies all the time with data and it can be confusing. But I must say, most people in thier daily lives accept science. As you said earlier you rely on x-rays, medicine, etc. Science is such a huge part of our daily lives we hardly notice it anymore, telecommunications, antibiotics, hygene, manufacturing, commuting, entertainment, computers... the list really goes on and on. Where the theist runs into problems accepting science is in instances when their faith intersects with it, i.e. the age of the earth or evolution. Then it becomes something not worth trusting.

This is a form of Pascal's Wager , do a quick search on this argument and you will see it has been refuted over and over. Basically if you are wrong there are many things lost. What if you chose the wrong god? What if muslims are right? What if hindus are right? What if all the gods worshipped by the human race are wrong and it is something completely different?

But let's just say I am right and there is no god, what have you lost? I think you have lost a lot, you lost the time worshipping the non-existant and in this short life that seems costly. Also you have lost any money given to that particular denomination. From my viewpoint all this time and money could have been better used toward helping your fellow man or spent with your family. I have heard simular arguements on the RRS Show and I think this states what is the biggest loss of all.

This is an "ad populum" logical fallacy. Just because many numbers of people are followers does not make the belief valid. Hitler had many germans believing his propaganda, but it did not make the beliefs correct.

You seem to be here to engage in fair discussion which is good. Too many theists come here looking for fights.

I have a suggestion look around this site some more, read the essays, watch the videos, check out infidels.org, look into the sciences more, read everything you can on the subject with an open mind. If you still choose to believe it will be a well informed decision.

You misunderstood.  It has nothing to do with "living up to a standard"...

Romans 3: 10-12 As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God.
All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one."

What does this mean?  Nobody is perfect.  The fact that Christians are called hypocrites is proof that as a human being, we never achieve what was intended.

Romans 3:20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

 But being a Christian has advantages...and these are all related to faith.

Such as? 

My opinion...I agree and I disagree.  I do believe that a court of law is authority on earth and my faith tells me it is established by God to be so..

Romans 13:1 Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.

It is clear that God established what the "state" is and you can easily see that it supports the separation of church and state as well since the governing authorities have the authority of God to do what is right.  Displaying the ten commandments or "In God We Trust" are not necessary - they are implied.

Now, when it comes to actually setting the laws however...

Romans 13:2-3 Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you.

When in the bible did it say that a man should lie with a man and it be acceptable as a form of the "joining of flesh"??  I don't wish to condone any individual that is homosexual however that does not mean I want to accept the sin as well.  For me as a Christian, accepting homosexuality as an acceptable form of marriage is accepting a sin to be OK.  What I've been curious about is I had thought the argument was about benefits and benefactors...what I've learned is that ANY person (in most states) can in fact name their partner as such.  It is wrong to deny any person that right and the ability to leave their estate to whomever they want.  Marriage however is another story...and I want to know what benefit would they get from it?  The title?  You would already be titled as a couple...and if you wanted that, isn't that also forcing their lifestyle upon society?

That is all you have to comment on? Really? A justification of why it is not time or money lost. No comment on anything else I said?

Have you devoted your life to christ? According to christian teachings if you are truly devoted christ he is to come before all others in your life. This worship, this time spent praying and paying homage to character with no clear evidence to support as being factual, this is not time lost if you are wrong?

This question of "what if you are wrong?" is given to atheists on a regular basis but we ask the same of you. What if you are wrong, sure you give money to the church, sure it is write off, do you really know where that money goes? Does it really make it to the people who need it? Could you personally have done better more helpful things with that money? What of your time, sure you spend a few minutes daily praying, no big deal. Not much time taken away from other things. What about going to church? That is a few hours weekly at least. What if you are wrong? All of that is time lost, spent pursuing and praying to a deity who is likely not there.

I am glad it has made your family strong, would the family bonds be any less if your christ faith was not there? Would you love your wife or children less?

I am glad you perform works of charity, would you stop giving of your time and money if you found out that there is no god? Do you give to help your fellow man or do you give to appease your invisible friend? Would you feel less empathy if you had no faith?

That is why I stated it that way, it is of my opinion time spent worshipping a deity that may not exist is a loss.

This is all I have time to comment on right now. But just one thing I think I waste more time workig than anything else. So the abolishment of money or the need of money would really help me save the most time.

It appears that out of the Christians in the U.S, the majority claimed to be Protestant. Therefore, Protestant women have the most abortions, but percentage wise, Catholics have more than the norm.

"Women identifying themselves as Protestants obtain 37.4% of all abortions in the U.S.; Catholic women account for 31.3%, Jewish women account for 1.3%, and women with no religious affiliation obtain 23.7% of all abortions. 18% of all abortions are performed on women who identify themselves as "Born-again/Evangelical"." 

"Catholic women are 29% more likely than Protestants to have an abortion, but are about as likely as all women nationally to do so."

 i think most of us would love to quit working, but I like to eat and sleep under a roof so that isn't an option for me or probably most of us here.

I would love to hear the rest of your comments though, when you get time. 

"The Lord God formed man from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and the man became a living being."

"And the Lord God planted a garden in Eden, in the east; and there he put the man whom he had formed."

What god do you worship? Yahweh/Jesus?

Give us the qualities of your god, so we may have a common reference.

Is he/it on this list?

Why would you say......

"If you were not meant to understand Cisco routers or how to cook then you were not meant to understand it. In the same way, some people were not meant to understand the "magic" that is God and God's works. Only God can give you the ability to understand and if it is not his will to do so, then it's why you would easily dismiss it as nonsense."

Yahweh/Jesus has volumes of stories, that describe in great detail, how his understanding and "magic" is available to all that seek it. Why is your version of Yahweh/Jesus's understanding, only available to those who he selects?

"Only God can reveal himself to you; there is nothing you can do to find him unless he wants you to."  

Not quite. You only help point out the endless contradictions of these stories.

" And Jesus answered and said to them, "Truly I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, `Be taken up and cast into the sea,' it will happen.  "And all things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive."  Matthew 21:21-22

    " Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.  For everyone who asks, receives; and the one who seeks, finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened."  Matthew 7:7-8

     "Again I say to you, that if two of you agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them by My Father who is in heaven.  For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst."  Matthew 18:19-20

    " Amen, I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, 'Be lifted up and thrown into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it shall be done for him.  Therefore I tell you, all that you ask for in prayer, believe that you will receive it and it shall be yours."  Mark11:24-25

     "And I tell you, ask and you will receive; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.  For everyone who asks, receives; and the one who seeks, finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened."  Luke 11:9-13

    " And whatever you ask in my name, I will do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son.  If you ask anything of me in my name, I will do it.  John 14:13-14

   " If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask for whatever you want and it will be done for you."  John 15:7

     "On that day you will not question me about anything.  Amen, amen, I say to you, whatever you ask the Father in my name he will give you.  Until now you have not asked anything in my name; ask and you will receive, so that your joy may be complete."  John 16:23-24 NAB 

BTW, your 5th quote even supports what I said

Only to someone who doesn't understand what the word is saying would call them contradictions. You are reading the gospels as if they are telling a linear story as if Jesus said what is written in the order written. I put Matthew 7 and you put Luke 11 which makes me think you didn't actually read what I wrote.

Dogma will give you the belief that you can achieve "faith" without God.

All the verses you put below only further illustrate your misunderstanding...

• Matthew 21:21-22 - Jesus is displaying what the disiples can do if their faith was stronger. The reason that Jesus kills off the fig tree was a display of faith against an act against God.
• Matthew 7:7-8 & Luke 11 - both of these are not possible unless God first gives you the ability to know him and then you can ask of him what is needed.
• Matthew 18:19-20 - Jesus is giving instruction on correction of a brother that is doing wrong starting with verse 15. As the verses continue, Jesus' words become about fellowship.
• Mark 11:24-25 - again, these verses speak of what you can do with the faith that you are given as a gift, not how to get it.
• John 14:13-14 - I'm curious why you put this verse in your collection. John 14:5-14 is in support for what the definition of the "trinity", not about achieving faith

The rest of what you wrote is the same over and over. The point I'm making still has not changed - YOU have no ability to obtain faith on your own; only God can give you faith to seek him out and at that point the rest of the truth comes to you.

By the way, this thread was about the challenge, not so called contradictions.  

BULLFUCK

Sometimes colorful words, are needed to put whats being described into proper perspective. Your apologetic defenses are obviously weak here, as you resort to denial of obvious meanings and intentions.

 "Next?"

 What do you think of the contradiction I posted?

It's stated so simply, that a caveman could understand the meaning of "EVERYONE".(cue Geico music)

Was this your answer?

"Only to someone who doesn't understand what the word is saying would call them contradictions."

  So it's a misunderstanding on my part eh? Lets look again, shall we.......

VS

Here we have the same story being told. If you clear your brain of religious zeal, to avoid malfunction, it is plain to see TWO DIFFERENT entities causing "David" to take census.

The "LORD" moved David to number Israel "

"Satan" provoked David to number Israel"

What kind of twisted apologetic understanding am I missing here

Atomic,

 How can I debate with you if you aren't sticking to the same subject?  First this thread is about the challenge.  From there you manged to migrate it from abortion to free will of the spirit to a so called contradiction in AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT thread.  If you care to RE-READ what I posted I was talking about something else then you decided to bring up 2 Samuel vs. 1 Chronicles.  You managed to take me out of context of this discussion to suit your own need for attention I can only assume..why did you do that?

If you want to debate that go to the thread that talks about bible contradictions.   If you'd care to be open minded about talking about what this thread was about to begin with, the blasphemy challenge, then I'm waiting to discuss that. 

 "How can I debate with you if you aren't sticking to the same subject?  First this thread is about the challenge.  From there you manged to migrate it from abortion to free will of the spirit to a so called contradiction in AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT thread."

Discussions change directions, and various points are addressed, pay attention. I answer questions I'm asked. 

"You managed to take me out of context of this discussion to suit your own need for attention I can only assume..why did you do that?" 

The context bullshit eh? You claimed contradictions were bull, so I called you on it. You then proceeded to say "Next", thinking you had justified your weak claims. Then I again mentioned this contradiction, that has no apologetic answer. I'll leave you alone now, until you make another bullshit claim, regardless of the thread topic. 

 "And YOU took it in a different direction for no reason."

No reason eh?  Like I said, you need to pay attention, or quit making up bullshit excuses. I went back and looked at it.

Someone said....

"If that was the case why wouldnt Christians agree with abortion?"

I replied

Someone asked....

"I'm curious about this stat, can you please provide me with the information?"

I gave the stats

 Razorphreak introduces god is unknown to everybody......

"If you were not meant to understand Cisco routers or how to cook then you were not meant to understand it. In the same way, some people were not meant to understand the "magic" that is God and God's works. Only God can give you the ability to understand and if it is not his will to do so, then it's why you would easily dismiss it as nonsense"

I replied

Razorphreak continues his point.........

"It is dogma that hides the true meaning of these words to make people think they can achieve salvation though works or actions. Because we do not choose to believe, and one else can either, not all will understand the words or accept them...and that is what was meant to happen. Only God can reveal himself to you; there is nothing you can do to find him unless he wants you to. It is however possible to lose him once found..."

I replied 

Razorphreak debates my contradiction response..

"Only to someone who doesn't understand what the word is saying would call them contradictions"

I replied, with a ridiculous bible contradiction.

If you clear you mind of religious zeal, it will help your malfunction.

Shadow,

While there might be many interpretations there is only one right one. I personally am not taking one verse and running with it; I'm saying that one must take ALL related verses to understand the fullness of what Mark 3:29 refers. This was NOT done in the challenge and sadly it is not done in many of the debates regarding bible references here.

In case you are wondering, the FULL related passage is Mark 3:20-30. You could even use just Mark 3:28-30 and get a better idea as to what the meaning of verse 29 is ACTUALLY referring to. As I said, denying the existance of the holy spirit is not the unforgivable sin and it never will be.

Mark 3:28-30 I tell you the truth, all the sins and blasphemies of men will be forgiven them. But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin." He said this because they were saying, "He has an evil spirit."

You can't keep breaking this up...doing so only creates different meanings when there is only one when taken in full context.  Hell verse 30 tells you WHY he said what he said which means that if you want to know what they said in full, you've gotta go back a few verses (to verse 20 to be specific) to understand the full conversation and events that lead up to verse 29.  This is the problem that I have with the challenge in that this was never done.

I didn't say you ignored 3:29. I said you along with others have ignored all other verses that complete the story in which is told under 3:29.

Regarding science, I know it's a method of observation but it also includes conclusions. The science behind the law of gravity includes the conclusions that "what goes up must come down." The science of observation that explained that T-Rex was a predator observed because it had big teeth, it must have hunted. That observation and conclusion were later challenged and now the scientific community regarding T-Rex is changing its stance to label the dino as a scavenger.

Atomic,

This is what's driving me nuts with you. I DIDN'T respond regarding contradictions that you posted in those numerous verses - I replied trying to explain to you that you used them out of context to our discussion. Then you continued with your totally unrelated old testament "contradiction" to take the thread into contradiction land when I did no such thing. You misread and now you are trying to not admit that you were wrong.

This is why I specifically called the holy spirit a devil in my blasphemy challenge video.