If we got our morals from god. then it must be okay to make someone not do as you say, and then punish them for not doing what you said you wanted them to do.

Actually, your idea of "is the passage in Leviticus referring to spooning or homosexul sex" is flawed because you are using the English version of the Bible. The Old Testament was written in Hebrew. Hebrew words have several different meanings that may be generalized into one word. For instance, there are 3 types of love in the Old Testament. I forget the 3 Hebrew words for them, sorry. But essentially they're selfish love (I love this taco) brotherly love (I love my brother) and "true" love (I love my soulmate). There are also eros (sexual love) and agapeo (the love Jesus spoke of, all-encompassing love). In other words, "lie" could mean something totally different than "spoon" because the translators could find no more accurate phrase than "lie."

People tend to read through the Bible with prejudiced learning (in this case, "I know what it says and means" sort of thinking). However, this sort of doctrinaire prejudice (coined by someone whose name I cannot recall) is wrong in and of itself. We place our own thinking onto something that was not created by our own thinking, but another's. We place modern learning/prejudice onto previous cultures and writings, and use this "interpretation."

Certain words for certain phrases, events, people, or emotions are ultimately lost in translation. For instance, there are multiple Hebrew words for "know." Take the example of Sodom and Gomorrah.

This WILL sound ridiculous, but the verse in Genesis (forgive my paraphrasing) basically says, "Let us get to know your visitors." The exact verse is found in Genesis 19. Now some Christians, take this to mean "Let us have sex with your lovely male friends."

However, note that there are MULTIPLE words for "know" in Hebrew - yada happens to be one of them, and is in fact the one used in the said verse.

A form of yada is used here and hundreds of other times in scripture. Only about ten of those times refer to sex, and in each case, the sexual meaning is clear by the context. (Example: Adam knew his wife and she conceived.) To try to make this word mean sex everywhere will get us in a lot of trouble, because the scripture tells us that God knew David, and uses a form of this word.

Does that clear up everything for you?

Actually, the wages of sin is death.

Christians believe that, you guessed it, ask Jesus for forgiveness and your sins are forgiven. Rather, Christians do not follow Old Testament law. I think it was Paul who was told specifically not to follow Old Testament law? Also there's a passage in Galatians (I forget where it is right now) that says something to the effect of "Jesus died and in doing so freed us from the old laws." Which you might jump on as a moot point simply to add in that yes, all Christians are hypocrites. Referring back to Acts, Paul cannot be a hypocrite if God told him, or rather he believes God told him (for those of you who require everything to be spelled out) not to follow Old Testament law. John (I think) was the disciple who wrote Galatians (which is a letter), so his statements could've been completely fallacious. However, Paul's inspired writings could not because they were inspired to by Holy Spirit, messenger of God blah blah blah etc etc.

As I'm sure all of you are aware, every sin is forgiveable, aside from denying the Holy Spirit. Thank you, blasphemy challenge.

Jesus says the most important commandment is love thy neighbor as thou wouldst love thy self. In Old English. Yes, he really did say it like that. Don't argue.

I would suppose that loving your neighbor (again mistranslated from Greek most likely, referring more to brothers and sisters in the Church) would automatically assume that you shouldn't kill him.

fade, I'm going to go out on a limb here.  You don't read Greek or Hebrew, do you?

I don't read Greek or Hebrew.  To that end, I don't get into discussions about what the original Bible says and doesn't say.  That would be a bit hypocritical.

Rook Hawkins does read Greek and Hebrew.  He's got two forums,  here and here.

Why don't you take a few minutes and check out some of his threads?  It seems like you're really interested in knowing the real meaning of things the bible says, and Rook has addressed some of the things you're talking about.

At any rate, Rook has done quite a bit of writing about Paul and his letters.  You'd probaby find the research interesting.

Ok, fade.  You just lost about 80 out of 100 possible respect points with most of the atheists on the boards.

How arrogant and presumptuous of you!   You would presume to tell me that in the brief time you've been on this board, you know that we have just ASSUMED our positions true?  Worse than that, you ASSUME that I've done something horrible?  That I'm an immoral person and am afraid of god?  Pardon my french, but screw you, buddy.  

Let's see where to start with this.  Fade, I've read the bible more times, in more translations, than most pastors.  I've read Aquinas, Luther, Wesley, Winthrop (you don't even know who Winthrop is, do you?), Lewis, Lindsey, Strobel, Potok, (I hope you know who this is) Robertson, Graham, and at least twenty or thirty other Christian authors.  I've read Russell, Jefferson, Franklin, Dawkins, Harris, Sagan, Hawkings, Mills, and at least twenty more atheist authors.  I've read much more theist literature than atheist.

Do you know why I'm an atheist, fade?  Because I've read the bible.  Repeatedly.  Because I studied science and logic and critical thinking.  Because I KNOW what I'm talking about.

Everybody who started this site is a former Christian.  Most of the atheists on the boards are former Christians.

Save your arrogant assumptions for someone they'll impress, poser.

 You haven't even addressed the best written post on morality.  Check it out here, and then maybe you can talk about what atheists know or don't know about theism.

(Rambo Kitty has spoken.  End Rant)

Funny, I was raised a Christian. Very strongly Christian family, Christian schooling all my life and I never knew this until I read it here at RRS. Well, I knew of Paul saying that line but it was just skipped over in all mentions of it which is why I'm finding it so surprising that Theists are dismissing the 10 Commandments in other threads. To me, those were still Christian law.

To my recollection and to how I was taught for 16 years, he freed us from sins, not from the old laws.

I agree with that sentiment, but I personally expand it beyond just brothers and sisters in the church.

I think we can all agree that the Bible is no place to get our morals from. It has some nice bits. One of the best sources of morality is On Liberty by JS Mill. There are perhaps some problems with it yes, but as a basis it is sound.