How the athiest thinks
Offline Person A (we are figuratively speaking here cuz i know you will probably cry about something) gets a PhD in the field of scientific studies. Person B gets the SAME EXACT PhD, yet person B uses his education in the glory of God and finds ample evidence of creation. These two people go through the same schooling, get the same degree, yet work in different fields. Then some athiest comes along and automatically assumes Person B has a lesser education than person A.
The Athiest glorifys a man because he has a piece of paper framed on his wall. They criticize a christian for believing what they read in a book or heard from somebody. Yet the athiest does the same thing, they believe what they read in a book, or what somebody tells them, but because its written of told to them from a certain point of view they forget that they are just as religious and deem it "science". They don't think for a minute, "how accurate is this?, could Person A have fudged these results just so he could get the outcome he wanted?, could Person A have lied about his research?" Because you studied it in a book how do you know its true? Because your teacher told you how do you know its true?
"WELL PERSON A GOT HIS DOCTORATE IN "X STUDIES" SO IT MUST BE TRUE BECAUSE HE WROTE ABOUT IT"
Bias is not 100% eliminatable, to what extremes would a person go to obtain the result they wanted?
Lets take this example. John Doe is researching homosexuals, if they are born that way or influenced somehow. (which btw, regardless of popular OPINION nothing has been proven on that) Ok, so what is John Doe's background, is he gay? is he straight? is he for/against homosexuality regardless of his own sexuality? does he have homosexual children? what kind of result is he initially looking for?
these are the kind of questions one should really ask themselves before taking anthing anybody says about anything into consideration.
and before you go and whine to me, yes there are Christians that are guilty of the same, because they go against what the Bible says and try to please man instead of God.
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
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Offline The glory of which god? There's a lot of them.
Shh.. don't ask that. It's a red hearing, that shows you are close minded!
I'm not going to PM my agreement just because one tucan has pms.
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Offline Look how much work it takes to support crappy beliefs.
Person A (we are figuratively speaking here cuz I know you will probably cry about something) gets a PhD in the field of scientific studies. Person B gets the SAME EXACT PhD, yet person B uses his education in the glory of God and finds ample evidence of creation.
Feel free to write a “nyah nyah” post if that ever happens.
These two people go through the same schooling, get the same degree, yet work in different fields. Then some athiest comes along and automatically assumes Person B has a lesser education than person A.
I guess you'll have to speculate since no such evidence has been provided.
The Athiest glorifys a man because he has a piece of paper framed on his wall. They criticize a christian for believing what they read in a book or heard from somebody. Yet the athiest does the same thing, they believe what they read in a book, or what somebody tells them, but because its written of told to them from a certain point of view they forget that they are just as religious and deem it “science“.
I can name a number of advances in science; I can't name any in religion. That's because science is about systematically figuring out what's going on around us, not butting our heads against anachronistic dogma, or trying to make evidence fit preconceived notions.
They don't think for a minute, “how accurate is this?, could Person A have fudged these results just so he could get the outcome he wanted?, could Person A have lied about his research?“ Because you studied it in a book how do you know its true? Because your teacher told you how do you know its true?
These questions are asked all the time in science. I think you're describing something else.
“WELL PERSON A GOT HIS DOCTORATE IN “X STUDIES“ SO IT MUST BE TRUE BECAUSE HE WROTE ABOUT IT“
Bias is not 100% eliminatable, to what extremes would a person go to obtain the result they wanted?
Then let's rely on texts that are 100% naked claims? Is that your alternative?
The rest of what you said was totally incoherent.
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Offline If in saying (figuratively, of course) person B has "evidence of creation" you intend a 7-day creation and 3,000 year-old dinosaurs, I would not necessarily assume person B had a lesser education, but chose to ignore those parts of his/her science education which ran afoul of his/her religious beliefs.
You twist and contort my statement my good man. I was not asserting that there is a lack of evidence of creation, because there is AMPLE evidence. I was asserting is that, what you call "evolution" is just as much of a belief as you claim christianity is. Yes it has been proven that ENVIRONMENTAL ADAPTATION within an animals KIND takes place, but it is PURE SPECULATION in the sense of "muck to man". Have you seen (lets just throw something on the table here) a dog and a dog produce something other than a dog? No you haven't, yet you lay claim, with nothing but speculation backing you, that given enough time that a "different kind" will eventually be produced. What has been SCIENTIFICALLY proven, is not evolution my friend, but varition within kinds. I challenge you to read a book by the name of Darwin's black box, which is a SCIENTIFIC, and not a religious debunking of evolution. Or would you rather just listen to Dr. John Doe because he has got a pretty piece of paper framed on his wall? I won't even get into the debate of how inaccurate your carbon dating is, and that the fact that it hasn't reached equilibrium in the earth's atmosphere yet proves an age of less than 30k because thats how long it takes.
Secondly, it tears up my heart that you walk away from Christ like that, and I in absolutely NO WAY agree with it, but PLEASE if you are going to be this way, PLEASE change your avatar. I am in the US military and that is HIGHLY offensive to me.
Now because of people, you probably have a negative view on Christianity in a way that people act. Now you don't know me, and i can assure you that the "world christian view" and the way a "mainstream christian" acts, is not what Christ taught. I may have my flaws here and there, like King David (well i try) I am a man after
God's own heart. I strictly adhere to the Word of God and do not treat people like trash (at least i strongly try not too). Knowing this, if you are so adamant on trying to prove to me that what i know and feel and live is wrong and that man can live on his own, a good step to take would be to not offend people with stuff like that. But of course I know that there is a satanic spirit attached to atheism, so i don't really expect you to have any heart in you. My friend, negativity and hate cannot win against true love, which is in Christ Jesus. You can tell me as well that I don't know you, but friend, Atheism in itself has a negative spirit attached to it. Atheism makes people, especially children feel like their life has no purpose because they are just no better than the dirt on the ground, and I will research this, i promise, but i honestly believe that the suicide rate is much greater within athiest ranks than those of chrsitianity. I pray for you all, i seriously do.
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
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Offline You twist and contort my statement my good man. I was not asserting that there is a lack of evidence of creation, because there is AMPLE evidence.
Such as?
I was asserting is that, what you call "evolution" is just as much of a belief as you claim christianity is.
No, Evolution actually has evidence.
Yes it has been proven that ENVIRONMENTAL ADAPTATION within an animals KIND takes place, but it is PURE SPECULATION in the sense of "muck to man".
So animals evolved, humans were created?
Have you seen (lets just throw something on the table here) a dog and a dog produce something other than a dog? No you haven't, yet you lay claim, with nothing but speculation backing you, that given enough time that a "different kind" will eventually be produced.
Dogs don't suddenly have mice, that is not evolution. All dogs originated from wolves, over time as they were tamed they eventually evolved to the creatures we now know as dogs some of which can be seen here (note: This was a 5 second search and the first website that backed up my statement, do not expect it to be completely thorough - I have seen much better more reliable information but I do not have it on hand).
What has been SCIENTIFICALLY proven, is not evolution my friend, but varition within kinds.
No, that is all that has been observed in recorded history since the advent of this theory. There are more than enough skeletons and archaological evidence of evolution.
I challenge you to read a book by the name of Darwin's black box, which is a SCIENTIFIC, and not a religious debunking of evolution. Or would you rather just listen to Dr. John Doe because he has got a pretty piece of paper framed on his wall?
I'll add it to my list of things to read.
Now because of people, you probably have a negative view on Christianity in a way that people act. Now you don't know me, and i can assure you that the "world christian view" and the way a "mainstream christian" acts, is not what Christ taught.
You can say that again.
I strictly adhere to the Word of God and do not treat people like trash (at least i strongly try not too).
So you kill anybody who disobeys one of the ten commandments? You kill anybody who doesn't follow your beliefs and worship god? Those are just some basic examples of the word of god AND the word of Jesus taken from the bible ... unless of course you don't follow it all that strictly after all?
Knowing this, if you are so adamant on trying to prove to me that what i know and feel and live is wrong and that man can live on his own, a good step to take would be to not offend people with stuff like that.
Not offend people with stuff like what, logic and evidence?
But of course I know that there is a satanic spirit attached to atheism, so i don't really expect you to have any heart in you.
I'm sorry, who's offending who?
My friend, negativity and hate cannot win against true love, which is in Christ Jesus.
So true love is parents killing children for being naughty, cursing trees because you're too stupid to approach them in season, damning people to hell for simply having money and being successful? Wow, we must be working off very different dictionaries.
You can tell me as well that I don't know you, but friend, Atheism in itself has a negative spirit attached to it. Atheism makes people, especially children feel like their life has no purpose because they are just no better than the dirt on the ground
Where as Christianity is so much more positive because we have to have blind faith in someone we can't see, hear, touch, smell, or have any valid proof of what so ever. We must worship this person with all our hearts minds and souls, give away everything we've got, kill and murder in his name (despite these two actions being against his own rules) and basically give up any hope of a happy fulfilling life otherwise we are destined for punishment in the pits of hell for all of time. Even if we do somehow manage to do all this, we can still be killed and sent to hell on one of this beings whims just because he wants to test someone elses faith?
Fear or freedom? Living my life under constant threat of eternal punishment for the sin of being happy, or just being happy because I know this is my only shot so I have to make the most out of it. Not following your god sounds much less depressing to me.
but i honestly believe that the suicide rate is much greater within athiest ranks than those of chrsitianity.
I haven't heard either way so I'd like to see this too. I do find it funny that 95% or more of those in prison are religious though. Great moral guidelines there!
Organised religion is the ultimate form of blasphemy.
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Offline Person A (we are figuratively speaking here cuz i know you will probably cry about something) gets a PhD in the field of scientific studies. Person B gets the SAME EXACT PhD, yet person B uses his education in the glory of God and finds ample evidence of creation. These two people go through the same schooling, get the same degree, yet work in different fields. Then some athiest comes along and automatically assumes Person B has a lesser education than person A.
Not necessarily. Please don't generalize.
The Athiest glorifys a man because he has a piece of paper framed on his wall. They criticize a christian for believing what they read in a book or heard from somebody. Yet the athiest does the same thing, they believe what they read in a book, or what somebody tells them, but because its written of told to them from a certain point of view they forget that they are just as religious and deem it "science". They don't think for a minute, "how accurate is this?, could Person A have fudged these results just so he could get the outcome he wanted?, could Person A have lied about his research?" Because you studied it in a book how do you know its true? Because your teacher told you how do you know its true?
There's a big problem you fail to address: the field of science isn't believing just like that. That would be the field of theism, so don't project your own belief's problems on us. The field of science contains:
- things that can be observed and cuantified, measured, etc. without any fear of error
- things and experiments that generate laws and explanations, which CAN be replicated, or which have left the knowledge on how to be replicated in the future, if humanity possibly doesn't have the necessary technology/power right at the moment
- theories that naturally come out of the previous two
Now, if person A teaches that G = m*g, and that g is constant all over the same distance from the core of the Earth, which, by the way, is a geosphere, not a flat pancake, I do have the necessary means to actually verify what he is talking about. If he tells me that it's called "gravity" and is a natural force, not "intelligent falling", a supernatural one, I find his conclusion to be reasonable enough as an explanation, therefore dismiss "intelligent falling", applying the very simple principle of Occam's Razor only. Possibly in the future, person A and I will be able to go to a distant planet. He will say "Remember what I taught you? Look: this planet has a much higher gravitational pull than our Earth, but is about the same size. Let's take samples from it, they should be, if my law is correct, much denser and heavier than the ones on Earth" and he will prove to be right, in which case I have absolutely no reason to doubt his law, since it has been actually proven through an experiment that can be replicated.
Religion only states "God did it, it's his will". What did I learn from that? Did I learn how to make a device that would estimate height from sea-level based on gravitational pull? No, I didn't.
So basically that's the difference. One cannot hope to ever test all scientific theories within his own lifetime. It's too little time. Some we have to take for granted in order to advance from there. That's the source of what you call "belief" on behalf of science (not only related to atheism).
Bias is not 100% eliminatable, to what extremes would a person go to obtain the result they wanted?
Bias is indeed not nullable. As for to what extent would some person go? Well, you once again project, since I don't remember any war started on scientific conflicts, but I do remember quite a few that were started on religious ones. Before asking science to what extent would it go, first make sure that religion has an acceptable answer to that.
Lets take this example. John Doe is researching homosexuals, if they are born that way or influenced somehow. (which btw, regardless of popular OPINION nothing has been proven on that) Ok, so what is John Doe's background, is he gay? is he straight? is he for/against homosexuality regardless of his own sexuality? does he have homosexual children? what kind of result is he initially looking for?these are the kind of questions one should really ask themselves before taking anthing anybody says about anything into consideration.
Well, actually, if John Doe would present me a specific gene (or set of genes) and say "Gentlemen, I have found the sollution: these genes. If they are arranged (this way), the person is straight, if they are arranged (the other way), he/she is gay/lesbian. And to prove you, I have made the following experiment on chimpanzees (which are one of our closest in genetic code) which can always be replicated, and thus proves my point", then I wouldn't give a rat's posterior about the questions you asked. I'd go get myself a chimpanzee.
and before you go and whine to me, yes there are Christians that are guilty of the same, because they go against what the Bible says and try to please man instead of God.
That would make... almost all public biblical scholars, woudn't it ?
OK, and now for the second part:
You twist and contort my statement my good man. I was not asserting that there is a lack of evidence of creation, because there is AMPLE evidence.
We're unfortunately unaware of that evidence. Would you give an example, please? Something that we can analyze, replicate and dissecate, leaving us with the sole possible conclusion that there was creation.
Surely James Randi would give you that 1 million dollars if your claims were true, don't you think ?
I was asserting is that, what you call "evolution" is just as much of a belief as you claim christianity is. Yes it has been proven that ENVIRONMENTAL ADAPTATION within an animals KIND takes place, but it is PURE SPECULATION in the sense of "muck to man". Have you seen (lets just throw something on the table here) a dog and a dog produce something other than a dog?
OK, let's throw them. I suggest you first read the FAQ at talkorigins:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html
Next, I suggest you read:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speciation#Observed_instances (from the good'ol' wikipedia)
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/07/0727_050727_evolution.html
http://www.hull.ac.uk/cichlids/papers.html <- good bibliography, if you ever have the time to read all that
Should be enough for now.
I challenge you to read a book by the name of Darwin's black box, which is a SCIENTIFIC, and not a religious debunking of evolution.
Yes, it is scientific, but it doesn't mean it's right as well. Unfortunately for Behe (the author), almost all of his theories have been proven to be either false or inconclusive, his idea of an "intelligent designer" being reduced to a simple god of the gaps. You can find reviews here:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/behe/review.html
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/peter_atkins/behe.html
http://home.wxs.nl/~gkorthof/korthof8.htm (Christian negative review - which only comes to prove that Christians can be intelligent people as well; besides, it states exactly why Behe's book is NOT scientifical)
http://www.americanscientist.org/template/AssetDetail/assetid/22794;jsessionid=baafOi0TgzgM-D?fulltext=true (rebuttal of the whole argument of intelligent design)
That should be enough.
I won't even get into the debate of how inaccurate your carbon dating is, and that the fact that it hasn't reached equilibrium in the earth's atmosphere yet proves an age of less than 30k because thats how long it takes.
Last time I checked:
- carbon dating is accurate in the sense that it measures the age MAGNITUDE; and carbon dating has a certain superior limit; there are other methods with a higher superior limit, too; do not project: to interpret "over 6000 years" as "Ha! I told you! The Earth was created 6000 years ago!" is the theist business, not atheist
- the atmosphere was quite breathable, it didn't give headaches; therefore it looks quite stable to me; By your definition, Jupiter or Neptune should have been "created" a few days ago.
Secondly, it tears up my heart that you walk away from Christ like that, and I in absolutely NO WAY agree with it,
It tears our heart as well that you walk away from Muhammad like that, too. Or wait, was it Siddharta?
Now because of people, you probably have a negative view on Christianity in a way that people act. Now you don't know me, and i can assure you that the "world christian view" and the way a "mainstream christian" acts, is not what Christ taught.
Great. So by your terms the world will come to an end sooner and affect us as well because you Christians had to be SoBs... When we'll both burn in hell, I suggest that when you see me, run away.
But of course I know that there is a satanic spirit attached to atheism, so i don't really expect you to have any heart in you.
Ahh... there's nothing like the sound of theist frustration to start the day.
*spits*
My friend, negativity and hate cannot win against true love, which is in Christ Jesus.
No, thank you, I'd rather be negative. I'm not gay.
You can tell me as well that I don't know you, but friend, Atheism in itself has a negative spirit attached to it. Atheism makes people, especially children feel like their life has no purpose because they are just no better than the dirt on the ground, and I will research this, i promise, but i honestly believe that the suicide rate is much greater within athiest ranks than those of chrsitianity.
Interesting, wasn't exactly Christianity that said that man was made from dirt? Projecting YOUR OWN problems AGAIN, pal.
I have been unable to find a proper statistic on suicide and religious affiliation, but for once I tend to agree with you for reasons that I will not state here.
Inquisition - "The flames are all long gone, but the pain lingers on..."
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Offline The Athiest glorifys a man because he has a piece of paper framed on his wall. They criticize a christian for believing what they read in a book or heard from somebody. Yet the athiest does the same thing, they believe what they read in a book, or what somebody tells them, but because its written of told to them from a certain point of view they forget that they are just as religious and deem it "science".
Text books are reviewed. Holy books are not. Text books must first prove that it doesn't have fictious or erroneous parts in it. Holy books don't.
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Offline By the way the idea of "Kinds" is not a scientific concept at all. It was purely created by creationists.
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Offline You twist and contort my statement my good man. I was not asserting that there is a lack of evidence of creation, because there is AMPLE evidence.
Like what?
I was asserting is that, what you call "evolution" is just as much of a belief as you claim christianity is. Yes it has been proven that ENVIRONMENTAL ADAPTATION within an animals KIND takes place, but it is PURE SPECULATION in the sense of "muck to man"
You are wrong and ignorant of evolution. Observed speciation, especially paripatric, has been observed all over the evolutionary scale. You obviously know nothing about the theory of evolution if you are not aware of observed speciation. The paralogous result of duplicate error and the orthologs of speciative split are extremely well documented. These crop up all over the genome. Humans alone have thousands of them. Speciation within human timescales is easily observed among the malarial parasite and bacterial mutagens. This, my friend, is fact. The methods of speciative split and the genetic mutations that cumulate to form them are so well documented you would be wise to check the phylogenic trees for functional evolution of various genetic families.
For instance, this is a basic tree showing the various divergences of haemoglobin:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/Education/BLASTinfo/orthologs3.gif
And this is a more complex flow of the homoeboxes (Hox genes) of biogenesis throughout the various flows of genes.
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/upload/2006/05/nematostella_hox.jpg
And this is the result of a microarray test of biochemical divergence of three segment shuffling mutations to produce orthology
http://www.nature.com/embor/journal/v2/n8/images/embor369-f2.gif
Please educate yourself in basic genetics before you spout this nonsense.
"muck to man". I trust this is an extremely stupid way of saying common descent. I will hold off on "muck" because that is a ridiculous way of saying primordial soup, but common descent is shown here:
http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/sapient/atheist_vs_theist/5465
I challenge you to read a book by the name of Darwin's black box, which is a SCIENTIFIC, and not a religious debunking of evolution.
I have read Behe's Darwin's Black Box. It is false. I actually thought his strategy was very odd. If he was to establish Irreducible Complexity, then what he should have done is researched into some extremely rare, hitherto unknown little mechanisms of life. Instead, Behe chose quite possibly some of the very best documented functions evolution-wise, like the eye and the rotating flagellar motor. All functions that Behe deems irreducible have been established not so since the publishing. When a creationist asks "what good is haf an eye" all the show is ignorance. Half an eye works fine, and might save your life where 49% would not.
Or would you rather just listen to Dr. John Doe because he has got a pretty piece of paper framed on his wall?
John Doe? I know most of the respected evolutionary scientists.
I won't even get into the debate of how inaccurate your carbon dating is
You are so ignorant. Carbon dating can only establish the age of items within the last 60,000 years. To measure Earth's age, the thing that drive's creationist blood pressure up, we use Zircon and uranium-lead dating.
and that the fact that it hasn't reached equilibrium in the earth's atmosphere yet proves an age of less than 30k because thats how long it takes
What the hell are you talking about? I told you, Carbon dating doesn't establish earth's age. It's for recent life and archeology. Here. Read Fallacy #17 in this article I posted:
http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/yellow_number_five/evolution_of_life/5274
But of course I know that there is a satanic spirit attached to atheism, so i don't really expect you to have any heart in you
OK. Let me stop clenching my fists. You asked Zarathrusta to remove his avatar because it offended you...then you tell us this. How dare you. You are quite possibly the most ignorant, ill-educated, nonsensical, garbage-spewing idiot ever to comment on the site. Anything like this posted again will be handed to the moderater team to decide whether you belong in Trollville and eventually may recieve a ban. You're off to a good start!
My friend, negativity and hate cannot win against true love, which is in Christ Jesus.
I think you mean Jesus Christ. Anyway, looking at the rise of atheism and secularism, I would say that hate cannot win against love. Which is why Christianity will fall. However, reason and science will always crush insane irrationality.
You can tell me as well that I don't know you, but friend, Atheism in itself has a negative spirit attached to it. Atheism makes people, especially children feel like their life has no purpose because they are just no better than the dirt on the ground,
Where is the evidence for this? Atheists are no less happy than Christians. They are certainly happier than people like you, as you strike me as either insane or just depressed.
This seems to me an offshoot of the argument from despair. It is a testimony to human arrogance that we can create ridiculously over-inflated teleological significance for our own existence to comfort ourselves. Indeed, this would seem to be an entirely human phenomenon as we are the only creatures capable of philosophizing. After all, no other animal has higher cognition therefore no other animal operates under the delusion that their life has teleological meaning
i promise, but i honestly believe that the suicide rate is much greater within athiest ranks than those of chrsitianity. I pray for you all, i seriously do.
You believe? That is cute, however, I would rather see some statistical data to back up your assertion than your intense belief and astonishing misconceptions.
As a parting shot, your continued hypothetical scenarios about Person A and B are nonsesical. Perhaps you are not aware of how peer-review works, but sneaking fudged data past millions of scientists is rather difficult. Everything in evolutionary science, just like every other field of science, is subject to harsh peer review, which helps eliminate the bias. You demonstrate your ignorance of biology, genetics, atheism and now of the scientific method. I look forward to your next post with anticipation! I wonder what you will demonstrate ignorance of next! Perhaps gravity? Or the fact that the Earth revolves around the sun?
"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.
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Person A (we are figuratively speaking here cuz i know you will probably cry about something) gets a PhD in the field of scientific studies. Person B gets the SAME EXACT PhD, yet person B uses his education in the glory of God and finds ample evidence of creation. These two people go through the same schooling, get the same degree, yet work in different fields. Then some athiest comes along and automatically assumes Person B has a lesser education than person A.
The Athiest glorifys a man because he has a piece of paper framed on his wall.
They criticize a christian for believing what they read in a book or heard from somebody.
Yet the athiest does the same thing, they believe what they read in a book, or what somebody tells them, but because its written of told to them from a certain point of view they forget that they are just as religious and deem it "science".
They don't think for a minute, "how accurate is this?,could Person A have fudged these results just so he could get the outcome he wanted?, could Person A have lied about his research?"
Because you studied it in a book how do you know its true? Because your teacher told you how do you know its true?
"WELL PERSON A GOT HIS DOCTORATE IN "X STUDIES" SO IT MUST BE TRUE BECAUSE HE WROTE ABOUT IT"
Bias is not 100% eliminatable, to what extremes would a person go to obtain the result they wanted?
Lets take this example. John Doe is researching homosexuals, if they are born that way or influenced somehow. (which btw, regardless of popular OPINION nothing has been proven on that) Ok, so what is John Doe's background, is he gay? is he straight? is he for/against homosexuality regardless of his own sexuality? does he have homosexual children? what kind of result is he initially looking for?
these are the kind of questions one should really ask themselves before taking anthing anybody says about anything into consideration.
and before you go and whine to me, yes there are Christians that are guilty of the same,
because they go against what the Bible says and try to please man instead of God.
People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.
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Offline As a fellow theist a follower of the great pasta one the Flying Spaghetti Monster who made us all (and whom Jesus is just one of his noodly appendages). Pasta be upon him. I do understand your rage against these heathens with their inhuman logic and reason.
If they could just let their hearts open to a bowl of pasta (or Jesus's noodly love) they would realise what their purpose was . While you seek an audience with god in heaven I seek stripper factories and beer volcanoes just 2 sides of that same divine coin (noodle)
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Offline OT: I am a spelling Nazi. I freely admit it. It really bothers me when someone can't spell the word "atheist" correctly. The word theo (derived from Greek) forms the base of this word. Therefore a "theologist" is one who studies god(s). A "theist" is one who believes there is a god or gods to study. The prefix "a" means "without"; therefore, an "a-theist" is someone who is without a belief in god.
The word "atheist" does not follow the "i" before "e" rule. Usually it is theists who misspell the word, but atheists spell it incorrectly, too. Also, it's easy to hit the "i" before the "e" out of habit, so a lot of times an incorrect spelling of "atheist" is simply a typo.
Still, spelling "atheist" incorrectly seems to broadcast that you know nothing about atheists or atheism. In any kind of debate you will be judged not only on the content of your arguments, but how you get your point across. This may not seem fair, but it's true.
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Offline Why do these theists spell atheist as athiest?
Before I read your post, I had a little rant downthread. 
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Offline Why do these theists spell atheist as athiest?
People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.
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Offline Secondly, it tears up my heart that you walk away from Christ like that, and I in absolutely NO WAY agree with it, but PLEASE if you are going to be this way, PLEASE change your avatar. I am in the US military and that is HIGHLY offensive to me.
Now because of people, you probably have a negative view on Christianity in a way that people act. Now you don't know me, and i can assure you that the "world christian view" and the way a "mainstream christian" acts, is not what Christ taught. I may have my flaws here and there, like King David (well i try) I am a man after
God's own heart. I strictly adhere to the Word of God and do not treat people like trash (at least i strongly try not too). Knowing this, if you are so adamant on trying to prove to me that what i know and feel and live is wrong and that man can live on his own, a good step to take would be to not offend people with stuff like that. But of course I know that there is a satanic spirit attached to atheism, so i don't really expect you to have any heart in you. My friend, negativity and hate cannot win against true love, which is in Christ Jesus. You can tell me as well that I don't know you, but friend, Atheism in itself has a negative spirit attached to it. Atheism makes people, especially children feel like their life has no purpose because they are just no better than the dirt on the ground, and I will research this, i promise, but i honestly believe that the suicide rate is much greater within athiest ranks than those of chrsitianity. I pray for you all, i seriously do.
I'd just like to point out that there is nothing 'satanic' about atheism. It would be logical that since atheists don't believe in a god, they also don't believe in a devil.
If you don't want people to try to prove to you that you are wrong, don't come to this forum. Simple as that. If you don't like the answers, you should not ask the questions.
How dare you assume that atheist children feel their life has no purpose. I grew up in a non-religious household and I can assure you that I alway felt my life certainly has a purpose. Where are your statistics regarding the suicides? Are you just throwing this out there in a desperate attempt to paint people that do not believe in a god as pathetic and without purpose? Are you suggesting that atheists are heartless? You're full of lies and I find it reprehensible.
I'm actually quite positive in my outlook on life. I find it exciting and I intend to live this life to it's fullest, as it is my only one. It's a tired old argument that all atheists are negative. Perhaps you feel atheism is so negative because that is they way non-religious people react to you and your proselytizing. It is you who has the negative spirit.
It is you who is trying to tell us that me that I am wrong. I did not seek you out to critize your beliefs. You came here to do just that.
If god takes life he's an indian giver
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Offline Secondly, it tears up my heart that you walk away from Christ like that, and I in absolutely NO WAY agree with it, but PLEASE if you are going to be this way, PLEASE change your avatar. I am in the US military and that is HIGHLY offensive to me.
I have learned an amazing secret: You are not allowed to go through life unoffended because of a quaint little thing in this country we call "free speech." You come onto an atheist website and expect all of us to conform to your sensibilities. Not gonna happen. No way. Not at this juncture. In fact, I'm beginning to wonder if YOU need an avatar to reflect your behavior in this thread. Hmmm...I'm not sure whether a troll or an asshat would suit. I'm thinking asshat, but 
Now because of people, you probably have a negative view on Christianity in a way that people act.
Gee, I wonder why that could possibly happen? 
I may have my flaws here and there, like King David (well i try) I am a man after
God's own heart.
Concerning flaws: Yes, they are quite in evidence in this post.
Concerning King David: He was a murderer. I'd call that more than a "flaw." Since coming to my senses I've always laughed about the idea of David being a man after god's own heart. Why? Because David and Biblegod are two of a kind: murderers both.
I strictly adhere to the Word of God and do not treat people like trash (at least i strongly try not too).
You've managed to treat people pretty nastily in this thread.
Knowing this, if you are so adamant on trying to prove to me that what i know and feel and live is wrong and that man can live on his own, a good step to take would be to not offend people with stuff like that.
It's been said once, but it was so good the first time, I'll say it again: Stuff like logic and evidence?
But of course I know that there is a satanic spirit attached to atheism, so i don't really expect you to have any heart in you.
Gee, I really, really wonder why people would have a negative view of Christianity?
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Offline Why do you have an Appenix??
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Offline OK. Let me stop clenching my fists. You asked Zarathrusta to remove his avatar because it offended you...then you tell us this. How dare you. You are quite possibly the most ignorant, ill-educated, nonsensical, garbage-spewing idiot ever to comment on the site. Anything like this posted again will be handed to the moderater team to decide whether you belong in Trollville and eventually may recieve a ban. You're off to a good start!But of course I know that there is a satanic spirit attached to atheism, so i don't really expect you to have any heart in you
Please don't censure him on my account. He may be presently blind to his hyporisy, but he may well come round from it.
JLY, you have my utmost respect for serving in the military. However, your esteemed service to this country does not automatically accord your unfounded beliefs any respect. The real offense lies with those legislators who baldly (and falsely) claim that this is a judeo-christian country, and thereupon derive the laws which affect us all. If I have assumed a less than genteel attitude towards christianity, it is because I am unhappy with the direction the slavish embrace of christianity is taking this country. History attests to the way dogmatism can halt human progress -- compare Islamic civilization of the Middle Ages to what you see today.
I personally find it cause for alarm when our president says "I consulted a higher father" when prosecuting the war in Iraq - regardless of your assessment of how the war has played out. How gratified would you have felt should your commander-in-chief said "I consulted Buddha", or "I consulted Santa Claus" before sending soldiers into the field?
JLY, I do not wish to offend you personally or denigrate your service to this country. Nor am I satanic - Satan is as nonexistent as god. I simply object to what religion is doing to civilization - and most immediately christianity in the case of the U.S. After the discovery of DNA, moon landings and the Internet, it is galling that some people still believe in Genesis story of creation, and wish to impose that belief on others. The misinformed idea that evolution is "a non-dog coming from 2 dogs" is a harbinger of things to come. When the notion becomes widespread that an outdated, poorly translated religious text is on par with science, we are well on our way to becoming a society of medieval peasants.
There are no theists on operating tables.
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Offline I won't go into arguing against this whole post because it's already been done pretty comprehensively, but I wanted to add my own thoughts on this bit:
"You can tell me as well that I don't know you, but friend, Atheism in itself has a negative spirit attached to it. Atheism makes people, especially children feel like their life has no purpose because they are just no better than the dirt on the ground"
From an atheist's perspective (in this case my own) life is a beautiful and valuable thing in and of itself, with purpose in and of itself that doesn't require a creator to give meaning. Religion only serves to cheapen life by reducing it to a petty chore you have to endure before you die and get to your REAL eternal life. Surely with this religious perspective the religious individual is more likely to have the attitude to not do much with their life, as they'll have "plenty of time" to get things done.
Sorry man, but go see the world and experience as much as you can, it's an amazing place, don't miss your chance.
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Offline My friend, negativity and hate cannot win against true love, which is in Christ Jesus. You can tell me as well that I don't know you, but friend, Atheism in itself has a negative spirit attached to it.
Even satan knows Jesus' name.
Keep turning the other cheek...
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Offline Please further explain how atheism has a negative spirit?? Negative how?? I guess when you tell kids there is no Easter Bunny that there is a negative spirit??
Seriously, this prediction about the name Jesus is circular reasoning. Anybody who wants to start a cult can use the same logic. Example: Jonesville.
"Those who think they know don't know. Those that know they don't know, know."
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Offline JesusLovesYou wrote:I concur, tho I have been hesitant to say it here. You know, Jesus predicted all this 2000 years ago. (They will hate you because of my name.) Even satan knows Jesus' name. Keep turning the other cheek...My friend, negativity and hate cannot win against true love, which is in Christ Jesus. You can tell me as well that I don't know you, but friend, Atheism in itself has a negative spirit attached to it.
It seems like a safe bet to me that every religion is going to have people that are enemies of it or opposed to it. I imagine it would take nothing more than a little forsight to make a statement such as that and forsight is something we are all capable of. It just really doesn't strike me as being very prophetic.
In any event, can you please tell me where I'd find that in the bible? I'm at work and my bible is at home.
Also, please clarify what was meant by 'even satan knows Jesus' name' Was that a quote from the bible?
If god takes life he's an indian giver
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Offline I'm actually quite positive in my outlook on life.
I sometimes don't, and it's becuase of people like jesuslovesyou.
I'd just like to point out that there is nothing 'satanic' about atheism. It would be logical that since atheists don't believe in a god, they also don't believe in a devil.
I'd like to say something about that.
Secondly, it tears up my heart that you would say stuff like that, and I in absolutely NO WAY agree with it, but PLEASE if you are going to be this way, PLEASE change your sentence. I am atheist and that is HIGHLY offensive to me.
I'm not going to PM my agreement just because one tucan has pms.
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Offline You know, Jesus predicted all this 2000 years ago.
Considering he is 1/3 of an omni-max force. That's not too suprising.
(They will hate you because of my name.)
You on the other hand, likes to stuff words in others mouths.
Even satan knows Jesus' name.
Impressive[/sarcasm]
Keep turning the other cheek...
You have to start doing something in order to continue doing something.
I would like to add, that just becuase I'm an atheist doesn't mean I think my life is worthless. It's another case of you stuffing words in mouths. And also ignoring things like people.
I live for my familiy... and fruit-flavored candy 
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Offline Please further explain how atheism has a negative spirit?? Negative how?? I guess when you tell kids there is no Easter Bunny that there is a negative spirit??
Seriously, this prediction about the name Jesus is circular reasoning. Anybody who wants to start a cult can use the same logic. Example: Jonesville.
For starters, peruse this site a little. If you do not notice the negative energy here, then... Well, how to put it...the negative energy here was quite apparent to me at first read. If you do not notice it, than possibly it is a state in which you normally dwell, so therefore it appears "normal" to you.
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Offline JesusLovesYou wrote:I concur, tho I have been hesitant to say it here. You know, Jesus predicted all this 2000 years ago. (They will hate you because of my name.) Even satan knows Jesus' name. Keep turning the other cheek...My friend, negativity and hate cannot win against true love, which is in Christ Jesus. You can tell me as well that I don't know you, but friend, Atheism in itself has a negative spirit attached to it.
Err, predicted what exactly?
Organised religion is the ultimate form of blasphemy.
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Offline For starters, peruse this site a little. If you do not notice the negative energy here, then... Well, how to put it...the negative energy here was quite apparent to me at first read. If you do not notice it, than possibly it is a state in which you normally dwell, so therefore it appears "normal" to you.
Okay, use your own words. "Peruse this site a little".
If you notice most threads have a few occurances of theists starting arguments, using logical fallacies, being shown they are wrong, instead of addressing the argument they quote the bible, ignoring valid points, switching topic.... then they start a thread to talk about how negative atheists are.
I am not a negative person, I think many people here are the same way. I like to try to find solutions, and discuss things in a rational manner.
Sugarfree I have observed you in a few other threads, even ones where I did not post and I can say I understand where you think people here are negative. You regularly like to change topic, ignore points and use many fallacious arguments. This would make many responses to you "negative".
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Offline JesusLovesYou wrote:I concur, tho I have been hesitant to say it here. You know, Jesus predicted all this 2000 years ago. (They will hate you because of my name.) Even satan knows Jesus' name. Keep turning the other cheek...My friend, negativity and hate cannot win against true love, which is in Christ Jesus. You can tell me as well that I don't know you, but friend, Atheism in itself has a negative spirit attached to it.
As for turning the other cheek I'm not into this sadomasochistic behavior. You must enjoy getting hurt.
For starters, peruse this site a little. If you do not notice the negative energy here, then... Well, how to put it...the negative energy here was quite apparent to me at first read. If you do not notice it, than possibly it is a state in which you normally dwell, so therefore it appears "normal" to you.
People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.
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Offline RationalSchema wrote:Please further explain how atheism has a negative spirit?? Negative how?? I guess when you tell kids there is no Easter Bunny that there is a negative spirit??
Seriously, this prediction about the name Jesus is circular reasoning. Anybody who wants to start a cult can use the same logic. Example: Jonesville.
For starters, peruse this site a little. If you do not notice the negative energy here, then... Well, how to put it...the negative energy here was quite apparent to me at first read. If you do not notice it, than possibly it is a state in which you normally dwell, so therefore it appears "normal" to you.
That is because you see the world through the eyes of your dogma, which demands that you see things as negative when they are not.
It's only the fairy tales they believe.
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Offline For starters, peruse this site a little. If you do not notice the negative energy here, then... Well, how to put it...the negative energy here was quite apparent to me at first read. If you do not notice it, than possibly it is a state in which you normally dwell, so therefore it appears "normal" to you.
That is because you see the world through the eyes of your dogma, which demands that you see things as negative when they are not.
Sugarfree, we were all born atheist, yourself included. Are we therefore all born negative? And if we as atheists are "negative", what mathematical value do you assign to those who believe in a god other than your own? Positive? Negative? Zero? ∏? And aren't you negative for not believing in those other gods? I recall you dismissing other religions as "false prophecies", without ever backing it up, I might add. Is that supposed to reflect your positive attitude?
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Offline Please don't censure him on my account. He may be presently blind to his hyporisy, but he may well come round from it.
Thanks for your patience, zarathustra. Very commendable. 
I don't think anyone wants this to degenerate into a mud-slinging contest a la politician. 
Conversation on this topic, though painful at times, is very important. When we stop having a dialogue--that's when things begin to degenerate. So, we need to all take steps to keep the dialogue going.
I am concerned that some bending of the rules has taken place. Calling atheists "satanic" could certainly be considered antagonism:
Rules:
2.1. Antagonism.
Antagonism is giving one or more members a hard time. Cases typically comprise a series of provocations, each not necessarily sanctionable in its own right. Incidents can include, but are by no means limited to the following:
- Slander/Libel
- Clear intent to not argue a position, but to merely attack a person
- Trolling
- Abuse
- Bullying
Before any kind of "censure" would take place, a lot of things would have to be taken into consideration, including possible antagonism of atheists toward theists. What we should all be trying to do is debate ideas without making personal attacks. Sometimes we screw up...all of us.
So I'm posting this as a reminder to myself and to all of us to focus on the issues and not the perceived faults in others.
Thanks. 
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Offline Sugarfree, I think that if you would say things that would deliberately induce anger in atheists, then turn around and say atheists are angry, that is hypocrisy of the highest degree. You don't make me angry, but this guy is a lunatic, and he makes me furious. I have lived among the irreligious all my life, and they have always been happy, healthy, caring people.
"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.
-Me
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Offline I am concerned that some bending of the rules has taken place. Calling atheists "satanic" could certainly be considered antagonism
Yes, but we forgive them, for they know not what they do.
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Offline There is a theist, that I admire.
And I think most of us should like him too.
Ken Miller. I love his little (Understatement) talk on ID at Case Western University (As found on youtube (Yes, it's still up)).
I'm not going to PM my agreement just because one tucan has pms.
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Offline In any event, can you please tell me where I'd find that in the bible? I'm at work and my bible is at home.
Also, please clarify what was meant by 'even satan knows Jesus' name' Was that a quote from the bible?
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Offline Iruka Naminori wrote:I am concerned that some bending of the rules has taken place. Calling atheists "satanic" could certainly be considered antagonismYes, but we forgive them, for they know not what they do.
Iruka, I'm not calling you or anyone here a satanist, but if a person does not recognize that satan exists and does not know his ways, then that person is more susceptible to his influence. In fact I go so far as to say, satan loves it when people say he doesn't exist because it makes his job easier.
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Offline Seriously, this prediction about the name Jesus is circular reasoning. Anybody who wants to start a cult can use the same logic. Example: Jonesville.
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Offline I'd just like to point out that there is nothing 'satanic' about atheism.
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Offline Religion only serves to cheapen life by reducing it to a petty chore you have to endure before you die and get to your REAL eternal life. Surely with this religious perspective the religious individual is more likely to have the attitude to not do much with their life, as they'll have "plenty of time" to get things done.
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Offline KSMB wrote:Iruka Naminori wrote:I am concerned that some bending of the rules has taken place. Calling atheists "satanic" could certainly be considered antagonismYes, but we forgive them, for they know not what they do.
Iruka, I'm not calling you or anyone here a satanist, but if a person does not recognize that satan exists and does not know his ways, then that person is more susceptible to his influence. In fact I go so far as to say, satan loves it when people say he doesn't exist because it makes his job easier.
Explain all of this in detail and provide some evidence that a thing called satan even exists.
People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.
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Offline Looks like you don't even understand your own beliefs. If you think Jesus was god and god supposedly knows everything, then Jesus cannot make a prediction because he already knew. Perhaps you've redefined the word 'prediction' also?
As for turning the other cheek I'm not into this sadomasochistic behavior. You must enjoy getting hurt.
Negative in what way?
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Offline Ok sugerfree, tell me what satan looks like, what are satan ways, and why would anyone be susceptible to satan influence. How do you know satan loves it when people say he doesn't exist and why would it make his job easier?Explain all of this in detail and provide some evidence that a thing called satan even exists.
I did not believe in him until after my friend was murdered in college. Then, I came to understand him gradually, only thru studying the new testament.
Here are some example:
Mark 4: 15.
2 Cor 11: 14-15
John 8: 44
Scriptures like this helped me understand how, someone could end up murdering someone else.
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Offline Sugarfree, we were all born atheist, yourself included. Are we therefore all born negative? And if we as atheists are "negative", what mathematical value do you assign to those who believe in a god other than your own? Positive? Negative? Zero? ∏? And aren't you negative for not believing in those other gods? I recall you dismissing other religions as "false prophecies", without ever backing it up, I might add. Is that supposed to reflect your positive attitude?
I, of course, disagree with your assertion that we are born atheist. Children assume they are immortal until parents or society tells them otherwise. When they are told they will one day die, it goes against everything that feels right to them, and they spend much of the rest of their lives grappling with that disconnect.
I was in agreement with JLY about the fact that atheism has a negative energy attached to it. That is different than saying each and every one of you are negative people. Perhaps you are sunny, happy people that are the life of the party. That's not the point. The point is, if there is a God and there is a devil, which I believe, than in denying the existance of God, you are effectively, if not aligning yourself with the devil, than you are putting yourselves in the position to be more susceptible to his lies.
As far as false prophecies, my back up is the Bible, so why waste my time giving you scripture references when you will just tell me I am not being "logical." My silence was a way to save us both time.
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Offline In Response to SugarFree:
What does him saying it 2000 years ago have to do with the price of Tea in China???
As far as your observation of negativity there are two easy disputations.
1. That is you opinion, not based in any actual evidence or reason.
2. Due to you previous beliefs and expectations about atheists you selectively attend to those posts which are negative and disregard the positive and intellectual based posts. Therefore, you continue to reinforce your previous belief that we all have a negative spirit. This is a huge generalization. Not only are you selectively attending to negative posts on this site, you are also generalizing all atheists based ona a small sample of atheists. You are applying a judgement and stereotype to the whole atheist community based on a small portion of the population. This is what we refer to in science as sampling bias.
"Those who think they know don't know. Those that know they don't know, know."
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Offline AiiA wrote:I did not believe in him until after my friend was murdered in college. Then, I came to understand him gradually, only thru studying the new testament.Ok sugerfree, tell me what satan looks like, what are satan ways, and why would anyone be susceptible to satan influence. How do you know satan loves it when people say he doesn't exist and why would it make his job easier?
Explain all of this in detail and provide some evidence that a thing called satan even exists.
Here are some example:
Mark 4: 15.
2 Cor 11: 14-15
John 8: 44
Scriptures like this helped me understand how, someone could end up murdering someone else.
Bible quotes are not evidence of a satan, it is only evidence that someone wrote something and it was put into the bible.
People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.
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Offline For starters, peruse this site a little. If you do not notice the negative energy here, then... Well, how to put it...the negative energy here was quite apparent to me at first read. If you do not notice it, than possibly it is a state in which you normally dwell, so therefore it appears "normal" to you.
Okay, use your own words. "Peruse this site a little".
If you notice most threads have a few occurances of theists starting arguments, using logical fallacies, being shown they are wrong, instead of addressing the argument they quote the bible, ignoring valid points, switching topic.... then they start a thread to talk about how negative atheists are.
I am not a negative person, I think many people here are the same way. I like to try to find solutions, and discuss things in a rational manner.
Sugarfree I have observed you in a few other threads, even ones where I did not post and I can say I understand where you think people here are negative. You regularly like to change topic, ignore points and use many fallacious arguments. This would make many responses to you "negative".
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Offline AiiA wrote:Some examples. Cussing at people you disagree with, belittling them, consciously trying to confuse them, sarcasm. You criticize Christians, but I don't observe these kinds of behaviors at my church. In fact, I don't observe it at my work place, or anywhere else. Just on this site. That is why, when I came here, the negativity was palpable. (Notice, I did not include "disagreeing with me" in the list, because that, in itself is not negative. It is possible to disagree in a respectful, loving way, but that, more often than not, doesn't seem to happen here. Here, the disagreements are visceral.)Negative in what way?
I think you're being a little judgmental here by making a sweeping generalization that all atheists are negative because that's what you see here. On the contrary, what I see on this site is a lot of interesting and educational dialogue.
And do you really think any atheist is going to respond positively to being referred to as 'satanic'? A lot of theists come to this site with the sole purpose of attempting to cast atheism in a bad light. I've been told so many times that I'm a horrible person/heartless/immoral/evil/the devil because I don't believe in god. And you expect me to react to that positively? Do you want to know what kind of person has called me those things? They were all Christians. I don't think that's a very positive attitude, do you?
I've been nothing but polite to you, even though I've found comments you made to be insulting and outrageous.
If god takes life he's an indian giver
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You're lucky you put in that little disclaimer about figuratively speaking, because nobody has yet found any evidence of creation, let alone ample evidence. On the other hand, there IS ample evidence of evolution.
Organised religion is the ultimate form of blasphemy.
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And the christian steroetypes ALL ATHEISTS!
Congrats you are an asshat!
Why do these theists spell atheist as athiest?
Then Jesuslovesyou says ""figuratively speaking here cuz i know you will probably cry about something."
Yeesh.
Atheist Books
If in saying (figuratively, of course) person B has "evidence of creation" you intend a 7-day creation and 3,000 year-old dinosaurs, I would not necessarily assume person B had a lesser education, but chose to ignore those parts of his/her science education which ran afoul of his/her religious beliefs.
Were you born a christian? Were you already reciting the lord's prayer before they cut the umbilical cord? Not I. I had no notion of god, much less one who died and rose from the dead, until my parents impressed it upon me. Therefore, my original lack of a belief was not due to books or what somebody told me -- it was the condition I was born in.
Person A could have fudged these results. What you study in a book may be false. However....with science, you are more than welcome to duplicate the experiment and compare the results to what Person A might have fudged, or what was written in that book. That's how you know if it's true. If a scientific claim is wrong, it can be shown to be wrong. Now the same cannot be said for religion, can it? Has anyone been able to duplicate the "results" documented in the bible? Well then. How do you know that it's true?
Very good point. Lets take this example. Jesus Doe (aka Person B) is researching christianity, if it's true or just a myth (which btw, regardless of popular OPINION nothing has been proven on that). Ok, so what is Jesus Doe's background, is he christian? Is he atheist? Is he for/against christianity regardless of his own religion? Does he have christian children? What kind of result is he initially looking for?
Truer words were never spoken. By you.
There are no theists on operating tables.