Throwing out the old testament?
Posted on: April 26, 2007 - 3:37pm
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Throwing out the old testament?
Well, I got i nto a discussion with this girl in my drawing class. I meantioned some of the nasty parts of the Bible, about the sexism, murder, bigotry, etc. She says that since they were in the Old Testament, that they should be excluded since Jesus came by in the new one. However, doesn't the Old Testament still have verses that Christians believe? She told me she believed in Adam and Eve instead of evolution, and in the 10 commandments. Correct me if I'm wrong (I might be), but weren't those meantioned in the Old Testament? How can you toss out part of the book without tossing the whole out? Why would an all powerful being need to "revise" himself?
JESUS SAVES!!! .... and takes only half damage!
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(There are variations to this position and is taken very seriously, this is a mocking review)
9/10 commandments are in the NT and the creation myth is mentioned over 60 times in the NT. And I think Peter mentioned the flood.
Sources:
Ex- Bible student
You can't. The only 'bible' that jesus could refer to was the OT, and he claimed that he came to hold up the word, not overwrite it.
In addition, the 'jesus' claim is based on 'prophecy' in the OT
And, furthermore, the basis for original sin is in the OT.
Remove the OT and christianity falls to pieces.
"Hitler burned people like Anne Frank, for that we call him evil.
"God" burns Anne Frank eternally. For that, theists call him 'good.'
Right. Its blatant pick-n-choose.
Exactly. Like, in the flood story, it is said that God "grieved" he had created man IOW, regret. How can someone that knows everything that was, will be, or even could be, ever "regret" doing something?
Also, is it possible that there could have EVER been a time when the proclamations in the OT could have been reasonable? For the ones in question, no. They could have never been reasonable.
www.caseagainstfaith.com
Umm, I think it falls to pieces, with or without the OT...
According to Bart Ehrman, there were lots of early schools of Christian thought that seem bizarre to us now. Like one of them was the belief that the OT God was a *different*, evil God. And Jesus came to save mankind -- from that bad God.
www.caseagainstfaith.com
I would assume that an all-knowing, all-powerful, perfect being would write it correctly the first time.
Dear Flying Spaghetti Monster,
Let us pray that all the hungry children in the world will be fed and peace be spread throughout the entire world. Amen.
*Incoherent speaking*
What do you mean it is not your will to feed the children of the world?!
It not whether you "toss out" the OT from belief but, as a Christian, understand its place in the faith. The NT has it's roots from the OT and the NT does not contradict or overrule the OT (before you flame on remember I'm speaking of the message although the technicial contradictions have been effectively answered). The NT simplifies what it means to obtain salvation from God in that only Jesus is necessary.
The OT doesn't go away; the NT has fulfilled the laws of the OT and those are which no longer apply thanks to Jesus.
What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire
Sounds a lot like the old Marcionite heresy to me. Or part of it anyway. Marcionites held that an evil OT God had been superseded by an loving NT God who sent Jesus to save them from the OT covenants.
I don't know what the Protestant sects teach on the OT, but these excerpts for the Catechism of the Catholic Church may shed some light:
The Old Testament
;">121 The Old Testament is an indispensable part of Sacred Scripture. Its books are divinely inspired and retain a permanent value,92 for the Old Covenant has never been revoked.
;">122 Indeed, "the economy of the Old Testament was deliberately so oriented that it should prepare for and declare in prophecy the coming of Christ, redeemer of all men."93 "Even though they contain matters imperfect and provisional,"94 the books of the Old Testament bear witness to the whole divine pedagogy of God's saving love: these writings "are a storehouse of sublime teaching on God and of sound wisdom on human life, as well as a wonderful treasury of prayers; in them, too, the mystery of our salvation is present in a hidden way."95
123 Christians venerate the Old Testament as true Word of God. The Church has always vigorously opposed the idea of rejecting the Old Testament under the pretext that the New has rendered it void (Marcionism).
;">129 Christians therefore read the Old Testament in the light of Christ crucified and risen. Such typological reading discloses the inexhaustible content of the Old Testament; but it must not make us forget that the Old Testament retains its own intrinsic value as Revelation reaffirmed by our Lord himself.105 Besides, the New Testament has to be read in the light of the Old. Early Christian catechesis made constant use of the Old Testament.106 As an old saying put it, the New Testament lies hidden in the Old and the Old Testament is unveiled in the New.107"With its enduring appeal to the search for truth, philosophy has the great responsibility of forming thought and culture; and now it must strive resolutely to recover its original vocation." Pope John Paul II
Looking at the problem as just regarding rules is too simple.
Do you, or do you not, believe that god did all those terrible things the old testament claims he did? I mean, this guy is supposed to be loving and just, but is that just a recent mood of his?
It's only the fairy tales they believe.
Yes. All these competing versions died out, leaving christians with the illusion of one 'story', uncorrupted through history.
"Hitler burned people like Anne Frank, for that we call him evil.
"God" burns Anne Frank eternally. For that, theists call him 'good.'
Effectively answered?
Here's a tip for you: if you really want to, you can solve any contradiction, all you have to do is begin by insisting, no matter what, that what you believe is true.
Then, if you predict sunshine, and it rains... well then, the sun did shine... just you couldn't see it for all the raindrops.
"Hitler burned people like Anne Frank, for that we call him evil.
"God" burns Anne Frank eternally. For that, theists call him 'good.'
There's laws from the Old Testament that no longer applies?
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. Truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven." Mathew 5:17-20
Not only does Jesus clearly state that he wants you to follow the rules of the old testament, you have to be even better then the very people who teach and uphold the law, because if you don't, you burn for all eternity (What a nice savior). I hope you have tassels on the four corners of your cloak (Deuteronomy 22:12). No? Well I suggest you pack some marshmellows, I hear there's a lot of fire where Yahweh plans to send you
http://flyingbagpiper.blogspot.com
The question of the applicability of the law of Moses to Gentile Christians was settled at the first Church Council of Jerusalem in 49 AD. The outcome of the Council is recorded in Acts 15. Jewish Christians of the Pharasitic Tradition saying,"'It is necessary to circumcise them, and to charge them to keep the law of Moses.'" (verse 5)
Then after some discussion the decision of the Council in verses 22-29:
22 Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church, to choose men from among them and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They sent Judas called Barsabbas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren, 23 with the following letter:"The brethren, both the apostles and the elders, to the brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia, greeting. 24 Since we have heard that some persons from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your minds, although we gave them no instructions, 25 it has seemed good to us, having come to one accord, to choose men and send them to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26 men who have risked their lives for the sake of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who themselves will tell you the same things by word of mouth. 28 For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: 29 that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from unchastity. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell."
"With its enduring appeal to the search for truth, philosophy has the great responsibility of forming thought and culture; and now it must strive resolutely to recover its original vocation." Pope John Paul II
It's good to know that the will of God is actually the common decision of people at the Councils.
It's also good to know that God doesn't treat us all equally when it comes to his divine justice of obligation, reward and punishment (do notice I didn't say anything about rights, for obvious reasons).
Inquisition - "The flames are all long gone, but the pain lingers on..."
http://rigoromortis.blogspot.com/
What's your point? If you lose your job is it because God was in a pissy mood? What does that have anything to do with the NT fulfilling the OT?
I forget there is no effective answer unless I show you the certificate of origin that was written by God himself and signed off by Darwin and recertified by Hawkins.
Every point of contradiction has been answered as being taken out of context, mistranslation through Latin instead of Greek, or misunderstanding of the culture of the time. The fact that they are not accepted by yourself or others does not make them invalid points - it just means you stopped listening.
Ah the whole "fulfill" argument.
If you understood what fulfill meant you'd understand that the laws to which Jesus "completed", meaning if they have run their course they are no longer necessary, are why I can say the OT laws do not apply (and if you understood the laws you'd understand what I mean, specifically the laws of atonement). Sin is understood from the old laws but through Jesus sin was forgiven man and grace came to those who would accept. This is not a free ticket to sin and more so when Jesus is accepted, it is a lifestyle change. There is no desire to sin (even though you do) because your desire is to live out through the faith you have been given and it grows as time goes by (Romans 6, Matthew 11:27, Matthew 13:31).
The fact that you automatically assume hell (since you did start from an incorrect assumption) shows how little you understand the fullness of the message of the entire book.
What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire
Absolutely nothing... But that wasn't the question of the OP, if I correctly recall, so this part of the debate is, at best, off-topic.
So then why does nobody in this smart and fully-understanding-of-the-old-culture-and-possible-interpretations religion called Christianity actually attempt to compile, print and give out a version of the Bible (even the Old Testament) that is not prone to heretical interpretation, that explains everything and that can be considered the message of a true, omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent and omnibenevolent god?
Or am I seriously missing something very important from the picture?
Very well, let's, for the sake of argument, allow you to present this whole "fulfillment" of laws as an old replica of today's normal legislative process. Why has nobody actually bothered to give us a set of laws (be them 1, 2, 10, 32768 or whatever the necessary number) that are clearly specified, leave as little room for interpretation or backdoors as possible and that everyone will know for sure that those are the laws, the only laws that your god wants us to respect, and that whatever else we do while not breaking them is strictly our own damn business? I'm only saying this because if all human legislators were capable of doing that, starting from Hammurabi onwards, clearly an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent and omnibenevolent god should also be capable.
Or am I, again, seriously missing something very important from the picture?
OK, what are we supposed to understand out of this last paragraph of yours, razor?
Inquisition - "The flames are all long gone, but the pain lingers on..."
http://rigoromortis.blogspot.com/
How many people today want to learn Greek? Concessions are made. I can only speak for myself of course but as I have grown in my faith I discovered those contradictions and dove farther in and discovered where the issues began and went the step further into looking at Greek and cross relationships to English.
OK wait stop right there. You want to compare God and his laws to a modern government? Now I'm the one missing something...
That it's ignorant to make a blanket statement that everyone is going to hell based upon Christian scripture if you don't want to understand the scripture to begin with (believing it or not)...and that goes for both sides.
What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire
If Jesus is the fulfillment of the OT law, then your religion considers the OT to be correct and valid, but to just contain some laws that you don't have to follow. But if the old testament is correct, your god has, explicitly, ordered human sacrifice, inflicted plagues and death upon the Egyptians (including killing innocent children), ordered genocide, etc. And then, suddenly Jesus shows up and god's whole attitude seems to change. This god is supposed to be merciful and just? The same one that snuffed out life with such zeal just centuries before. By validating the OT, you validate the claim that your god has done all these terrible things.
So, how do you justify god's cruelty, and how do you justify believing that god just changed his attitude?
It's only the fairy tales they believe.
That has to be the dumbest answer I could have ever received.
If I wanted to learn Greek, then I'd might just as well read the original document(s). Of course I'm asking for an updated and explained version IN ENGLISH.
If you are able to realize that there are mistakes in translation, and you are able to pinpoint them, then you should be able to also explain what was originally intended in the text. If you are, then where's the "explicative Bible" I asked? If you aren't, then on what exactly do you base faith, knowing that your understanding of the texts might be incorrect?
OK, he gave a set of laws, they were not applicable anymore, so he sent J.C. to make public a different set of laws, offering him a mandate to speak in his name... And this has no resemblance to a legislative process... Good one, rummy !
But let's not make any assumptions, not even for the sake of the argument. I'll just restate the challenge: could you give me a set of strict, clear, unambiguous laws that are for certain your god's words and that are the only true laws that humans must respect when it comes to relationship with their god?
Enlight us, oh great and undoubtedly correct interpreter of scripture!
Actually, nevermind, just answer my first two questions. Your dodging efforts are remarkable.
Inquisition - "The flames are all long gone, but the pain lingers on..."
http://rigoromortis.blogspot.com/
All this is pulled directly out of your ass and the asses of various theologians, all of whom had and have a vested interest in whitewashing the horrible bits of the bible. There is nothing in the Bible itself supporting this interpretation, and the quote shows very clearly that Jesus expected everyone to live according to the letter of the old law.
Any document that requires this level of "interpretation" before it can be understood is not worth the paper it's printed on. Christians have two choices: live by what's actually written in the book they claim to revere, or admit that they are making Christianity up as they go along. Anything else is intellectual dishonesty.
Lazy is a word we use when someone isn't doing what we want them to do.
- Dr. Joy Brown
That's why I left you the bible verses so you could read it for yourself. Don't start with your attitudes if you didn't even bother trying to understand.
That so. Might as well throw out Darwin's book too cause it seems you've got to do a lot of research and "interpretation" to figure that one out too.
Don't worry rigor, I didn't forget you.
What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire
I think you would be surprised about how much I do know about the bible. The Greek word that is used in this passage for fulfill is πληροσαι (roughly transliterated as playrowsai). While this is literally translated as fulfill, like many words in Greek, it losses much of its meaning in English. You are trying to say that the old laws have run their course, however πληροσαι also means to uphold. While the English translation may sound like he is saying they have run their course, the Greek is very clear that he wants them to continue as well.
While there are definite examples in the bible where Jesus or Paul (especially Paul) are basically saying that you don't need to follow the old laws, these only serve as further evidence to the contradictory nature of the bible.
http://flyingbagpiper.blogspot.com
It's good to know that the will of God is actually the common decision of people at the Councils.
It's also good to know that God doesn't treat us all equally when it comes to his divine justice of obligation, reward and punishment (do notice I didn't say anything about rights, for obvious reasons).
Jesus conferred the power to pronounce on matters of faith and morals, and to interpret the Scriptures on the Apostles in Matthew 18: "'18* Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. 19* Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven.20 For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them."
This passage clearly establishes the teaching Magesterium of the Church, that is, the authority of the Pope, in cimmuninion with the bishops, to define doctrine and teach infallibly. The problem of multiple and dubious interpretations of Scripture enters the Church during the Reformation with the promulgation of the Protestant doctrine of "sola Scriptura", that is "Bible only". Under this doctrine, interpreatation of Scripture became the matter of individual interpretation under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Obviously, the existence of more than 30k Christian denominations shows that this method doesn't work.
The changes to the obligations under the Mosaic Law were applicable to all members of the Church. I can see how my wording made it seem that they were only applicable to Gentiles. That this is so is illustrated also in Acts 11:
2 So when Peter went up to Jerusalem, the circumcision party criticized him, 3 saying, "Why did you go to uncircumcised men and eat with them?" 4* But Peter began and explained to them in order: 5 "I was in the city of Joppa praying; and in a trance I saw a vision, something descending, like a great sheet, let down from heaven by four corners; and it came down to me. 6 Looking at it closely I observed animals and beasts of prey and reptiles and birds of the air. 7 And I heard a voice saying to me, 'Rise, Peter; kill and eat.' 8 But I said, 'No, Lord; for nothing common or unclean has ever entered my mouth.' 9 But the voice answered a second time from heaven, 'What God has cleansed you must not call common.'
So the interpretation of the law was applied equally to all within the Church, in keeping with Christ's admonition to respect the rights of all as stated in Matt 25:40:
'Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.'
"With its enduring appeal to the search for truth, philosophy has the great responsibility of forming thought and culture; and now it must strive resolutely to recover its original vocation." Pope John Paul II