How do atheists propose filling in the gap
Offline http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070503/LOCAL18/705030475/-1/ZONES04
Rather than focusing on removing that which atheists disagree with, why not focus on finding ways to "minister" (in a humanistic way) to the community? How about creating programs to promote morality in the workplace? How about working in cooporation with others who share your desire to make society better, even tho you may not agree with them on the subject of God?
Shouldn't our government be concerned with supporting and promoting the morality of its citizens, given that, societies with rampant immorality, in the long run, are incapable of sustaining themselves? Is not one of government's fundamental responsibilities to promote order in a non-obtrusive way so that you and I are free to live productive lives? Shouldn't government institutions be allowed at least some flexibility in determining how to do just that?
Given the situation we find ourselves in, where our society's moral decay is becoming more and more evident, how do YOU propose promoting sound moral behaviors? In my opinion, simply suing those with whom you disagree does not get to the heart of the matter. It just leeches funding from programs designed to help people, so you are in effect, inhibiting their ability to serve their community.
Which brings me to my last question. Ultimately, is your goal to help others, or are you simply trying to make a point. If your goal IS to help others, how is suing going to help anyone???
Offline Incidentally, David Berkowitz ultimately admitted his original story (about his neighbor's dog being a demon that issued him orders) was complete and utter bullshit he made up. He said he killed because it excited him sexually. Like many serial killers, he would return to the scenes of his crimes, and in his case he would jerk off at them and relive the memory.
Offline This comment has been moved here.
Offline Where is this thread headed next? Whether Ottowa has a chance at the cup? Whether Angelina and Brad are going to split up? Who the next mayor of Mayberry is going to be?
This thread is way off topic and a new one should have been started a long time ago.
Offline For the love of God (or not) KILL this thread!!! Please, someone, put it out of its misery!!! Don't MAKE me reply to some of the nonsense I've just read. Please, someone be kind and END THIS!!!
Oh yes, Sugar, would you let David Berkowitz stay with you, as jce asked?
(yeah, yeah, I couldn't help it) 
If god takes life he's an indian giver
Another delightful post from Magilum. Good morning to you too and have a nice day...
I googled to try to refresh my memory of the new york guy. It is the son of sam. He is a Christian now. See his website: http://www.forgivenforlife.com/
I do not have stats to give you. I have only stories like the above (that one being the most dramatic) of people who were living immoral lives, came to know Jesus, and made dramatic 180s as far as their moral behavior. As well, I know people personally, who are now good respectable people, but were once into questionable behaviors. They accepted Jesus and have been improving ever since. I do not think this is a delusion, or that they are caught up in some fairy tale. If you take someone like the son of sam whose mind was totally messed up...I think he was so far gone that he could not have simply "cured himself" by deciding to believe in some fairy tale. Christ's message is a living and breathing one, that comes with the benefit of Christ himself...and he is able to pull us out of our dark spaces when we have lost the ability to pull ourselves out.
Susan, I'm not sure why you are stuck on this issue. Is it a sore spot for you and if so why? If I know why, perhaps I could address it better.
I think you misunderstood me in the beginning. I am talking about the higher up laying the foundation for the moral tone. That is different than your newsletter example.
Let me offer this, tho. I am a contractor, thus have worked for several different companies at different locations over the past 6 years. I have had exposure to other contracting companies as well. There are good contracting companies and bad. The bad are the ones that treat their employees like cattle, or simpy as a means to an end. Those employees generally aren't as happy in their workplace. Unhappiness in the workplace can and often translates to less happiness in all aspects of ones life. People don't like to feel used, disrespected, etc. On the other hand, some companies, especially the one I am working for now recognizes that they do not own me, that I have a life outside of work, that work is not the top priority, etc. They also have made it clear that they respect honesty and integrity. That makes such a big difference! Because, I know, if the company I'm contracted to do work for asks me to do something I disagree with, or asks me to work ungodly hours, I can go to my boss and say, this is what they are trying to pull, and she will support me. Just last week she told me not to go into a meeting with one particular gentleman because he bites people's heads off. In other words, she is on the lookout for me, she cares about my emotional health...I'm not just a body to make money for her.
Also, I have had the opportunity to work for a company that is recognized nationally for being one of the best places to work in the country. The reason is because they view their employees comprehensively, they offer them child care assistance, an entire week off at X-mas, plenty of time off to take care of personal issues, etc. That kind of work environment makes people happy, and that happiness allows them to better enjoy all aspects of their lives.
Last thing, where I work now, it does not matter if you do good work. My team recently got our work stolen from us because of someone's dishonest behavior. The people that got our work had never released a successful piece of software...actually their project failed which is why they went sniffing at ours. My team, on the other hand, has years of success under it's belt. This kind of stuff happens all the time there and we have just learned to shake our heads. Luckily we continue to do good work just because we want to, but we realize, in the end, it is not going to mean anything to the higher ups. What I'm saying is...the liars should not be rewarded in favor of the people who are doing honest good work, and it is up to management to make sure that type of thing does not happen.
Sugarfree - what you first wrote is called a Mission Statement and pretty much every single company has one. Almost every restaurant I worked in when I was in school had that Mission Statement plastered on the wall in the kitchen. There is one somewhere in the office I am in right now.
Secondly, I'm not even entirely sure what you're getting at with your examples about your work now. What does the Mission Statement have to do with people stealing your work? And what does any of this have to do with the original topic at hand?
jce is right, this thread is getting too confusing.
If god takes life he's an indian giver
As far as the stealing the work thing...the work was stolen by another contracting company whose standards are apparantly not as high as I would like them to be... I could go into loads of detail, but it is just a bunch of political crap which I deal with every day, and if we did not have to deal with it, and if people were committed to being honest and cooperative, a lot more work would get done around at my workplace, and a lot less money would be wasted...
So your company will be sueing them right?
And I know good respectable people who never needed Jesus to be good and respectable. And those people also didn't feel the need to have sex with and eat little boys, so I'm not sure why you think someone who did is better just because they suddenly 'found Jesus'. I don't see how finding Jesus makes him or the Son of Sam any better. So what you're saying is that now Dahmer is in heaven since he's accepted Jesus into his life. What about his victims? Too bad for them? Or, maybe they're in heaven and now they can hang out with Dahmer.
If god takes life he's an indian giver
No, the contract was not robust enough to protect against it.
Your personal experience may not be representative of the majority is the point. Your sample consists of one person that you’ve named, and other nameless people that might not even exist. What if I said that I knew someone who stole all their life and they never got caught, and they were happier because they had lots of things that they would not have had had they not spent their life stealing? Just because that happened in one case that doesn’t mean that it’s normal.
David Berkowitz got a life sentence; he didn’t have a chance to murder more people. It would be more helpful to your case to point to people that were incarcerated, then were ministered to, then were released and didn’t commit more crimes.
Christianity being delusional or not has nothing to do with this. If Christianity was true and it didn’t lower crime that wouldn’t make it less true, and if it does lower the crime rate that wouldn’t confirm that it is true.
You didn’t address my point either. Japan has a lower recidivism rate and only 3-6% of people there are christians. If prison ministries work so well why are recidivism rates higher in places with more christians?
There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
H.P. Lovecraft
And his victims? Are they in hell? Remember, most of them were gay, and were never allowed a grace period to learn about jesus and "repent".
Then of course there was Charles Manson, whose christian beliefs partially inspired his racist views and murderous rampage (the other main inspiration being the hate-filled lyrics of the Beatles). We also have catholic priests who preach jesus all the time, then molest the altar boys. Or Ted Haggard, equally steeped in jesus, who takes to blowing meth and getting blown by ... well, google it.
Clearly, belief in jesus is intrinsic to moral uprightness (literally).
There are no theists on operating tables.
I would venture to say that life in prison will be a small price to pay when Jesus has given him eternal heaven for murdering all those people.
Sugarfree - This is very off-topic of the original thread (among other things). This thread is becoming too big to carry on like this. Please consider making a new thread.
If god takes life he's an indian giver
So when people believe in jesus and turn their lives around (like Dahmer or Berkowit), it's an obvious and indisputable sign that jesus has transformed their lives, because the were seeing him cleary. And when people believe in jesus and commit murders, molest children or visit male prostitutes for sex & drugs, it's an obvious and indisputable sign that there weren't seeing jesus clearly.
Looks like cherry-picking season came early this year.
There are no theists on operating tables.
If you do no wish to follow Jesus, you will have not shortage of people to point at to justify your reasoning not to believe. You at the same time, however, would be ignoring all those whose lives are transformed. I choose to believe that the people whose lives were transformed by Jesus are the one's who are seeing him clearly [...]
Which returns you to your old stand by, special pleading. If you can recall, this was the argument you made for why Christianity is the one true religion (in spite of your profound ignorance of the other major religions).
Incidentally, David Berkowitz ultimately admitted his original story (about his neighbor's dog being a demon that issued him orders) was complete and utter bullshit he made up. He said he killed because it excited him sexually. Like many serial killers, he would return to the scenes of his crimes, and in his case he would jerk off at them and relive the memory. Maybe you'll meet him and Dahmer, and all the other monsters that have made death row conversions. You can look into their eyes and realize how shoddy the Christian idea of morality becomes if there's no distinction between doing good every day and just fearfully converting before you die.
I don't believe a fearful conversion would be considered a sincere one.
Pure speculation in proxy for your silent authority figure.
(BTW: And what is shoddy about offering people forgiveness?)
Forgiveness necessarily follows a transgression. If any transgression can be forgiven, there's no impetus to do good in the first place. You say it's for your magic authority figure to decide whether an apology is sincere. A death row inmate of eight years sits crying while a cleric says “There there.” He says he's sorry to the family sitting in the witness box as they brace themselves for the bittersweet horrors to come, knowing it won't bring back their loved one. A guy who's ended the futures of others is confronted by their faces all at once. He loses continence and retreats into prayer as the poison-filled capsules drop. That's reality. There's no last minute call from “god” to tell anyone whether a criminal's groveling is sincere or just opening night jitters. There's no indication that prison religion is anything different from what it is outside: a set of rituals to quell primitive fears.
You might suggest that that's only here on earth and not in the magical land; but if you can't prove the magical land exists you're stuck with a grim moral prospect in the guise of Christian morality: There is nothing a person can do before converting that will prevent him or her believing he or she is entitled to forgiveness. It devalues life and even forgiveness itself, because it moves the importance of our acts out of the present and into an indeterminate position that we have no reason to believe exists. I'm talking practical realities here, not speculation about how lightsabers work or where people go to the bathroom on the Starship Enterprise.
[even more idle speculation snipped]
Silent on Berkowitz, I see. BAD EXAMPLE to have pulled out, huh?
Regarding forgiveness, however, I accept that I will be judged as I have judged others. If I am unwilling to forgive, God will not be willing to forgive me.
[even more idle speculation snipped]
Silent on Berkowitz, I see. BAD EXAMPLE to have pulled out, huh?