What is the purpose of heaven?
Offline This is something in all religions that I do not understand and did not understand as a believer. You die. You go to….heaven? hell? other? What exactly is the purpose of an eternal afterlife? I am hoping some theists respond to this with whatever explanation they have been told or interpreted.
I was taught that you go to heaven when you die as a reward for believing. The end. No explanation as to why you would want to go there in the first place. No real explanation regarding what happens when you get there. (I have heard some allusions to it being a happy place but no concrete descriptions.) I have also heard explanations involving believers being turned into angels, but again the purpose of this was never made clear.
I am not looking to necessarily destroy any explanations (although others might - lol) just trying gain a better understanding of one of the biggest marketing tools used by religions.
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I've heard some theists say it's a place to reunite with loved ones. but...what if they're not there???? hmmm????
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People are afraid to die.
If we can believe that there's an 'after-life' then we no longer fear death.
It's powerful tool that religions use to control people.
http://atheismisrational.blogspot.com/
I have heard this too, and you are right - what if they aren't there? As a child this really concerned (and frightened) me because I was pretty damn sure several of my relatives were NOT going to be there.
You see, I personally believe in Heaven as a place to go after we die that is whatever we want it to be. Mine would probably be a victorian house with books piled to the ceilings in every room and new books anytime I wanted. Some people might want long streets and an awesome car. It is whatever makes you happy. As for loved ones not being in Heaven, I take the more hippie view on it. Anyone can go to Heaven, you just have to be a decent person. Hitler, for example... I'm not expecting to run into him in Heaven. Stephen Hawking, I do expect to see. As far as I know, he's a pretty decent guy, and has done a lot to advance science. There are very few people I can think of that I don't expect to see in Heaven. I just don't see Heaven as being that hard to get into... dont' be a douchebag, and I'll see you at the party... I also see Hell as more of a purgatory than fire and torment. It is a place where you are held because of your own guilt over things that youi have done or not done. In "hell," you just have time to shake off the pain of guilt and understand how it all works... Once you've done that... you come to my party. Basically, if you are a nice person, do what you can to better the world and those around you... I'll see you there regardless of what you do or don't believe. Murder, rape, incest, etc... bad. Other than that BYOB!!!!
Ah, the pitter patter of tiny feet in huge combat boots.
I'm going to bring my camera, so I can see the looks on your faces when you wake up there.
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Hello jce,
There is no purpose of the eternal "afterlife". We have spent thousands of years teaching ourselves, and we have been poorly taught. Even the termonology we use is cause for great confusion. The term "afterlife" is composed of two parts: "after" and "life". The word "after" assumes the reality of linear time - something we all naturally accept. But what if it's not true? Many believe linear time is an illusion. Einstein wondered why we cannot remember the future. The second part assumes that we know what life is. Do we? Perhaps not. In fact we don't.
There is no purpose in "Heaven" because there is nothing to be done. There is nothing to gain. There is nothing to experience. And, most importantly, there is no separation or time. Heaven is not a place or a condition. It merely an awareness of perfect oneness and the knowledge that there is nothing else; nothing outside this oneness and nothing else within. We do not "go" to "Heaven" when we appear to die, simply because "we" have never left. If you become aware of the meaning of the statement that we have never left Heaven, you realize that this, and I mean ALL OF THIS, is an illusion - a dream ( a very bad dream). You also realize that there is no "we". There is only One existing in the timeless perfection of God. "We" cannot change what "we" are, but "we" can belive "we" are something "we" are not. That is how the illusion seemed to begin. "You", "I", "we" will not die even though what we think we are appears to die. Awareness will come to every seemingly separated mind and we, as well as the illusiory universe will merely cease to seem to be.
If God created this universe, and this "life" He would not be a loving God. Perhaps you have a good "life". But if you think this is a nice place you are not paying attention. Separation from God is the definition of hell. God is not here. In fact, God is not even aware of this universe. That is because God does not deal in illusion.
There is no purpose to Heaven. But there is purpose to this "life". That is to become aware of and remove the blocks that we have created to keep us away from Love.
Sounds like an assertion without proof. I will refer to the first part of my quote too.
Sounds made up...
Agnostic Atheist
No, I am not angry at your imaginary friends or enemies.
There are no theists on operating tables.
I do see the point of it. I myself am scared of death, it's a typical human reaction to the idea. But I'm coming to terms with it. It's gonna happen, just part of life.
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If we are discussing the purely Christian heaven, I can answer the question.
The present universe is not in its natural state. Death is not natural (which is why decomposition stinks, according to evolution death just means free food.) So the present existance is in the process of being redemmed by it's creator, both by saving His own "elect" and in using His elect to take His truth to all of rebellious humanity. That is scheduled to take a while longer, concidering Isaiah spoke of men with lives like trees, and our medicine isn't that good yet. When that task is finished, Jesus will return, Judgement Day will occur, and after all of humanity that remains rebellious is cast into Hell, Jesus will rule all of creation as King of the New Heavens and the New Earth, while those who obey Him are made into stewards of His creation.
That is the end of the story, at least. "Heaven" (as in God's Throne Room) is a place that the "elect" will go to between the times of their deaths and the final Judgement. So in essence the elect there serve along with the angels.
Along a similar note, the "unelect" do not go to Hell proper, but await judgement in Sheol, or in Greek, Hades. The Greek word used to describe Hell itself is Ghehennah.
"Truth is the cry of all, but the game of the few." George Berkeley
"Truth is always strange — stranger than fiction." Lord Byron
Fixing the world, one dumb idea at a time.
Death is not a natural state? Well without death there can be no life for obvious reasons.
Basically heaven and religion is a way for the individual to hide from the fact that they are totally insignificant on a cosmic scale. Despite what most people say all religions put man at the centre of the universe (not god) because the human ego cannot accept that one day it will no longer exist
By the way we have all been dead before (its exctly the state we were in before we were born)
Nice story, I like fantasy too. It reminds me very much of The Silmarrilion by Tolkien.
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As in a suspended state of awareness for eternity? I think I like your heaven the best. I guess my only problem with it is that I see this as a security blanket (albeit a very, very inviting one) that I do not need.
Out of curiosity, how much is your idea of heaven tied to your belief in God?
You really do make me laugh sometimes! I can just see it...everyone's face would be like "Whaaaaa...????!!!!"
I'd like to see the looks on the theists' faces:
"We spent our whole lives praising this holy jerk in the sky. They spent their lives having fun, and they still get in?!?!"
There are no theists on operating tables.
Bear with me, I am not the sharpest tool. So you are saying that God/Heaven exists but not in any concept of which we are aware? Or are you saying that this life is the definition of hell because we are separated from God? Sorry if I missed the point, but this all seems a bit strange to me only because if this is true, then were did the concept of God come from? If we are not to know of his existence, they why do people think they do?
Never really loved by us or by God?
This is what I think too.
Oh, Jacob - I was overwhelmed by the idea of death too. The only difference is that without a belief, it is much, much less scary to me. It is what it is and forces me to take care of the here and now. (That is the short answer - the long one requires lots more alcohol.)
Heaven to the believers is a reward for a life of servitude. Sadly, none of them can agree on what is there, where it is, what you will know of this life, who else will be there.... etc. Essentially it is the prize behind curtain number one, but you never get to pull the curtain away and visualize the final reward. Many of us know why, because there NOTHING there. It is the carrot dangled in the face of xians to keep them believing and worshipping that which otherwise would have fallen away when logic and reason took over....
As heaven is described by most Christians, you are right to be confused. Heaven is not the reward for this life. Heaven is the dwelling place of God, and is not where we will live.
Those who are forgiven of their sins will, when all things are finished, live again on earth with all things made new. In other words, the point of salvation is to redeem us from sin, and the final outcome is a universe without sin, where we are free to do those good things that we all desire.
Most Christians say that we live in heaven in the after life, but these are two mistaken concepts. Heaven is the dwelling place of God, and at the most we will just live there temporarily. Earth is where we will live - not in a spiritual afterlife, but again in the flesh with bodies like those we now have.
The following chapter of Revelation makes it clear that Earth is where we are destined to live:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=revelations%2021;&version=31;
There is a problem with believing that heaven is the reward in the afterlife. If someone believes that, it leaves you wondering what the point of this universe is for? Why create this place that we are free to learn about it, if ultimately after our short 70 or so years we leave all that knowledge behind for an eternal retirement home? It makes much more sense when you understand that this world is close to how life is meant to be, but absent evil.
I can see that...
I think it is completely tied to my belief in God. See my God is cool, therefore his afterlife is cool. However, I do not mean that Heaven is special invitaion only... Good people from all faiths will be invited. Anyone ever see What Dreams May Come? That is my heaven...
Ah, the pitter patter of tiny feet in huge combat boots.
And yet it still makes no sense.
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jce – What I’ve heard from Christians is Heaven is a place where you go after you die to be with God/Jesus. Your main purpose is to worship God. Since we have all sinned here on earth, we are unworthy to ever be in the presence of God, so in Heaven we do our best to bring glory to him. The love we have for God, and the love He has for us is enough to last us an eternity. What I’ve heard from Sikhs is that “Heaven” is simply a place where you are united with God. I have no idea how that works though. I’m kind of hoping that Mormonism is true. They believe in three Levels of paradise and you work your way up and eventually you can become God. Then you can go roaming around the Universe and do whatever you want, even create your own “earth.”
Wishkah311 – You do realize your afterlife is quite unrealistic, and clearly one you have created. You even talk as if you have made it up, “See my God is cool, therefore his afterlife is cool.” You know death isn’t that scary...you can release your security blanket.
Hogspanker – I’m going to go with you’re a big Deepak Chopra fan. Would I be correct?Isn't it in Christianity where there are 10 Clouds, The tenth is where God lives and each one is a level? Or am I grossly mistaken?
It's all bullcrap anyway. When I die, I don't know what will happen, but I'm fairly sure that it will be nothing.
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And what exactly would a realistic Heaven be like? If I am not mistaken, you are an atheist... so aren't all Heavens unrealistic and made up from your point of view?
Ah, the pitter patter of tiny feet in huge combat boots.
Good question, what is a realistic afterlife? Hmm. I have no answer to that. Perhaps one that doesn't exist?
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Yes. It is not possible for a human brain to comprehend Heaven or true Reality. If you examine the many descriptions of heaven you will find that many of them are simple "wishful thinking" or a carrot-and-stick thing to scare you into following some silly religious dogma.
Exactly. The apparent separation from God gives rise to all that we associate with hell: pain, suffering, loneliness, disease, war, death, etc etc. I also must mention that using the word "God" can sometimes cause problems because there is so much baggage that goes along with that word. If the word "God" brings up too much stuff for you, then use something else: Truth; Reality; Spirit; Oneness; whatever. I use the word "God" because I am not under the control of an organized religion and I do not accept their horribly destructive activities of social and mind control. However, I realize that if I refer to God, I may totally alienate myself from somebody who has a preconceived definition of the word..... like... an atheist.
If you decide to follow a spiritual path, as opposed to a religious path, you will realize that you must accept the fact that you do not understand anything, and that the nature of True Reality is beyond your ability to understand. Thus it seems strange. But the fact is YOU are strange; I am strange; THIS WORLD is strange. That is because you and I and this world are not real.
The concept of God came from the fact that we do not believe that we created ourselves. If we did not create ourselves, then it must have been........ God. Again, the strangeness pops up, because we did create ourselves. You (jce) and I (hogspanker) created ourselves and this world (the physical universe) becasue you and I are the same. We are One Mind along with everybody else -One Mind which thinks it is separated which "dreamed" up this tiny mad idea - this silly bloody dream which is not real at all. When the One Mind awakens (something which it has already done because there is not such thing as linear time) all of this - you, me, the universe - will simply not be there anymore. In fact, it never was "there" in the first place. It's a dream - ALL OF IT- a silly dream.
Because, the creator of the dream, mainly the ego, has a very strong will to maintain itself. Once the awakening really happens, the ego will disappear along with everything else in the dream. The ego uses the belief in gods like the Bible's god or the Koran's god to maintain its apparent existence.
By the way, you are one of the sharpest tools in the tool box. But be careful, sharp tools can cut you.
Wish - I think Jacob answered your question.
See - this is the problem! It appears to be a made up reward. I could tell my children that if they do thier chores (to my satisfaction) everyday for the rest of their lives I will get them something really fantastic. There are a couple of problems though -
- The chores must be done to my satisfaction, but if I don't make clear what that means, how can they do them correctly?
- At some point it becomes cruel treatment and my children will ask where the damn reward is and what is it?
See, no one would accept this concept in any area of their life EXCEPT faith. Why is faith exempt from the rules (logic, skepticism, justice) that we apply to every other aspect of our lives?Reincarnation?
Not trying to be disrespectful but that all sounds like someone's acid trip. I will re-read it, but perhaps you could help with some interpretation.
Actually, there is no problem believing in any sort of heaven unless it interferes in the quality of someones life. As you can see from this thread, even with the few responses (which I very much appreciate) there is a wide range of ideas regarding this topic. There really is no wrong answer to the extent that it is tied to an individual's faith/belief.
I have not seen it - is this a movie?
Honestly, I have to tell you, if I was a believer, this would be my god too! I think your god is an excellent reflection of the person you are today and I am thankful for that.
Oh boy!! I hope not! I suck at art - my earth would end up looking like the Wal-Mart smiley face or something really goofy like that!
I was raised to believe it was a place you go when you die so that you can worship god for all eternity. It always sounded boring to me - LOL
We have no reason to assure ourselves of an afterlife, but we have every emotional motive to do so. Death is the foremost stress on the minds of most people (the second, IIRC, is moving house or a tax audit), so the concept, however founded or unfounded, addresses that concern in a way that is consistent with the priorities of the culture. For American pragmatists, paying lip service to Christianity is a non-committal way to reconcile present concerns with the long term fear of permanent unconsciousness. If you take militant Muslims as another example, the afterlife is a carrot that drives people to give up for clerics the one thing that's really their own.
Yes it is a movie. It has Robin Williams and Cuba Gooding, Jr. in it. It is a really good movie. I'm not sure it will have quite the affect on you as it did on me, but you'd have to be cold hearted not to at least tear up. I spent an hour after the movie crying and contemplating my life, my faith, and who I want to be. But it is a really good movie!
I thank you for that.
Ah, the pitter patter of tiny feet in huge combat boots.
Sounds made up...
Agnostic Atheist
No, I am not angry at your imaginary friends or enemies.
When I was theist I used to think it was where you go when you die or well when your body dies and that's where your spirit or w/e goes and lives this blissful eternity if you've been good enough in your earthly life and you can be with friends and family, lol even ancestors of the way back and even pets that "made it in" will go and everyone will be happy doing whatever you're supposed to do up thereand junk like that. Lol so yeah we were taught the same that it's where the good people go and live happy eternities prancing around god in his or her big ol' chair on clouds -_-
I always wanted to have wings. lol
---George Carlin---