Yes, there is a point to the financial abundance. A lot of times, people are blessed abundantly BEFORE they start giving, but they are hoarders, or greedy, or always worried that something horrible is going to happen so the "more money they have the better they will be". For those types of people, the point of giving, at first, is to teach them that they will be okay if they relax the reigns, if they let go and trust that God will be there for them always and that they do not have to take such extreme measures to try to protect themselves. Giving helps them shift their perspective from worry to appreciating what they have...thus they become aware of their abundance (which had always been there, but they were too blind to see.)

I simply don't find the argument from personal experiecne very credible.  Individuals throughout human history have claimed experiences of the divine within their geocultural traditions  - some even claim religious experiences of "foreign" faith traditions, though again, they tend to be traiditions that people have encountered and learned a bit about.  If we were to privelege the argument from personal experience, then that would make all faith traditions equally true (i.e. representations of a Alice in Wonderland reality) ... This would, of course, scuttle the project that's at the basis of your presense here (which is also the basis of many of the "prophetic" religions of the west):  the exclusivity of your monotheism.  (Though if you're Christian, I'd think twice about calling that tradition monotheistic ...) 

Let me be very clear here, Religions (in this case, Christianity) are not representations of reality - the texts (and the project of the texts) were never intended to explain the ontological reality of the physical world.   Religions are human constructions that discuss, at a very basic level, mythological realities - these frame culture and in many ways create the moral and actionable foundations for social practices (slavery, domination, genocide, rape, murder, heirarchy, hegemony ...also, pair-bonds, concepts of love, family, the community, cooperation and even love).  Any opinion contrary is simply ahistorical.  In otherwords, the notion that a god even exists was secondary to the authors intentionality - and God belief through ancients texts comes about late in history.

The fact that people have transcendant moments, either within a faith tradition or without, is simply testimony to the ingenuity of our imaginations and the power of our brain chemistry ... You are framing a real experience with a mythological construct, and in the process cheapening any real enlightenment you could have been able to grasp from such a rare moment.

I still would like to know how your "personal experience" with God is ANY different from the "personal experience" of any inmate of the wacky ward with his or her own delusions.

No. How can you love something that doesn't exist?

They are correct, despite being "false prophecy", as you previously called them?

Have you considered common sense? Just because you really want jesus to exist does not mean jesus exists. You are deceiving yourself.

Not quite. The more I studied about jesus, the more I realized there was nothing to accept. My heart is fine. Don't be so judgmental - particularly when you have nothing substantive to back up your claims.

There is nothing more blatant than empirical evidence -- and scoring the hits and ignoring the misses does not amount to such. Besides, if it comes down to god's will, there is no point in praying in the first place, is there?

Fine. But...Why must there be more to it than meets they eye -- and why does it have to be jesus?

I didn't. My best friend lives a couple of miles away (in North County if you're curious), and he is far more reliable than the mutilated effigy you pray to.

Because sugarfree, the more I studied about jesus (as a believer), the more I realized there is in fact no credible evidence for believing in jesus. There is nothing to support the claim that jesus ever existed. It is for you to demonstrate that your god exists before discounting what I have to say as "worthless tripe".

If god exists, may he forgive you of your self-righteous pride as well.

Not so. I am not assuming my conclusions in advance, as you are.

I won't let go of it because it is pivotal to your belief. The god you believe in is purportedly a historical figure. Yet in the abscence of any corroborative evidence, jesus is nothing more than a myth (once again: we do not have one single contemporary reference to the gospel events). You tacitly concede this by refusing to address the point.

Of course you don't owe me an explanation. But realize that without an explanation, you are simply preaching a myth, not a fact. Continue to bask in your folly if you wish. You will continue to be called out by me.

I don't. I'm simply pointing out to you that when faced with a challenging question, you dodge and make catcalls, rather than taking the challenge head-on.

NOW you're being harsh? I hadn't noticed the change.

If there was a god other than jesus, and there was a devil, don't you think the devil would be working over time to KEEP you in your current frame of mind, to keep you from ever again believing in the god other than jesus who made you?

Hypocrite.

It's not a question of wanting to believe or not wanting to believe. It's a question of having the truth. Myths are not true, whether or not you want them to be.

If god makes himself so hard to find, he shouldn't be surprised when some of us don't believe. If he wants to get something through our thick human heads, he should just go ahead and do it (all-powerful, right?). That would certainly be more effective than your method of "debate".

 Thanks, Sugarfree!  I glad you can finally see that people who don't believe in god can be good people too!!

Actually, I did not say that you overstepped any bounds. I did encourage you (as I have in the past) to produce valid arguments. As usual, you have failed. You try to counsel people on this site although you have no authority to do so and that is not the purpose of this site.

I cannot answer for Zarathustra, but I can tell you how I was a believer once who now knows that I never loved god. When you start looking at the inconsistencies in the bible and the hypocracy of organized religion and begin weighing that against what you see around you and the effect that it has, you push god further off in your mind. At a certain point you realize that you have created your own personal god for which you either have a need or you don't. I don't. I cannot claim to love something that does not exist.

You have a need for god and have elevated your god to a very prominent place in your life. That is fine, but please provide a valid argument as to why when you are asked. I do not doubt that you have spent much time researching this as it appears to be very important to you.

This thread addresses someone's personal experience, which they attributed to god.  Other have explained on very easy to understand terms why this could just as easily not be attributed to god. You look for god or you don't. Good things happen to you and you credit god. We don't. We have a reason for this - good/bad things happen to non-believers as well as believers. There is no rational reason to accept that prayer works or your god intervenes on such a personal level when good and bad happen to everyone.

You want to think that it does because it makes you feel good. This is not a valid reason. It isn't logical and it isn't rational. I do not doubt that you will latch on to this and say that god defies logic and reason but really, you are an intelligent woman. It is my assumption (I could be wrong) that you apply logic and reason to every aspect of your life, therefore you would apply it to your faith as well. There simply must be some reason at least that you believe. I would like to know what it is.

No answer on how an atheist can overpower God's will and might through sheer force of stubbornness? Perhaps there is no answer. Or maybe I was just too sassy.

I wasn't even going to respond to this thread until I read that las line... Prayers aren't wishes.

Why does everyone focus on the part of the Bible where Jesus says that all prayers will come true, but fail to notice the portions where prayer is not answered?

Again, I have answered all of that here.  But let's take an example, one of Jesus' own prayers, prayed the night before He was to be crucified: "Father, if you are willing, remove this cup from me. Nevertheless, not my will, but yours, be done" (Lk 22:42).

Are you going to suggest that Jesus didn't have enough faith to make His prayer come true? 

Don't feel bad; no one looks for God.  Check Romans 3.  We are dead in our sins. 

I actually like you more and more with each post I read.  What you have touched on here is the hypocrisy of organized religion.  But the Bible has a lot to say about people who give with the expectation of reward in heaven vs. people who give with no expectation of repayment.  Yours is actually the purer form of giving.  You have the correct motives.

This post reminds me of the video I saw once of the guy who was passionately explaining the need for evangelism, talking fondly about how Christians have the greatest potential for winning souls with the most logical and easiest to preach message, and how each of us should make it our life's goal to win as many converts as we can, and then disciple them to a fullness of life in Christ.  He quoted Bible verses thoughout to support his position.  At the end, he said that he was an atheist and how all the "God stuff" was crap.  It just made him so mad that people who did believe it treated the gift of eternal life like an afterthought.  They seemed more concerned with judging others than spreading the gospel, and he thought that that was wrong in the extreme.

Videos like that and posts like yours serve to remind us Christians that we have a long way to go in humbling ourselves before God and learning to do good with the right motives.

Then why hasn't he? All the spiritual, financial, and emotional abundance I have came from me and me alone. I worked for my job, I made my friends, I budget my money, I choose to be happy. Your god has never offered to help. You talk about your god like he bribes you to be good. I don't even want a bribe. I'll be job. Just prove yourself. That's all I want. But that has never happened, and never will. Because god doesn't exist.