OK then I've gotta re-ask what I stated in my original post to you directly, without asking a theist to prove their beliefs, "I'd be curious as to what kind of discussions we'd actually have."  Is that at all possible or you do believe that it will always revert back to a "prove it" stance?

When I talk to someone who believes in the supernatural or in pseudosciences I usually ask why they believe what they do, how they came to have those beliefs, and how they manage to reconcile those beliefs with the rest of their lives. Then I walk them through the refutation of their answers (if they are logically flawed or based on incorrect information) until I get to the reason why they believe it - it usually ends up with 'I just believe it' / faith, or they change their minds, or go away thinking about it - but I occasionally get an interesting answer, which I then think about. The hardest part of the conversation is asking for the person's own beliefs, and their own original reasons for believing - I won't accept answers they make up on the spot or standard apologetics that they're just pulling off a website. Unfortunately, most of the time people only believe what they say they do because they were raised with it - they never made any decision themselves, the same as they didn't choose which language to learn when they were babies.

I go to the "prove it"/"give me a good philosophical argument for it" stance only when someone tries to make me believe something or when their argument relies on presuppositions that they haven't shown their validity yet. So this happens in most of conversations, but I don't ask for it straight away - only if it's required for the argument they want to make. i.e. if they want to use the bible as any sort of evidence.

When talking to someone with beliefs you don't agree with or that you think are bad for society an aggressive attitude isn't going to allow a proper conversation - neither side will be thinking properly. But, I do take the blunt approach. If someone wants to know my opinion, or if it is relevant in the conversation then I won't sugar-coat it, and I won't accept flawed arguments.

What sort of discussion do you think would be worth having?

And from my last post: Why do you think people have the right to respect for their beliefs?

What do you say to them?

There is a difference between describing one's faith and defending it. Yes, I understand that to describe one's faith, one would need to rely on the bible for explanation, however to defend it, one should have proof outside of the bible.

Comparing evolution to this is a bad analogy. Most religious beliefs can ONLY be argued from a philosophical standpoint; science simply isn't part of it. Every person, religious or not uses science everyday. I do not use religion everday.

Using the bible to explain your position on something is fine as long as you understand that 10 different theists can quote the same 10 passages from the bible and arrive at 10 different conclusions.

Being blunt does not equate to aggressive. As far as this website goes there are a few things to consider:

1. Have you read some of the posts by theists? Sorry but being told that I am "fuckng stuped" generally does not ilicit a friendly response from me. Sadly, the majority of theists that come here are quite ignorant and arrogant and although the responses to them may start out rational, the discussions quickly deteriorate based on the theist not the atheist. Naturally, there are cases of the opposite happens, but this is not the majority.
2. As far as it being 99% against christianity, well, look at the theists that come here. The majority are christians. The primary base of members is from the US, which is, what? 88% christian. It makes sense, then, that most arguments are targeted toward christians.

No, it can be educational - to a point. The problem is that, while I like you, you must understand that your faith is unique to you. I enjoy discussions with you about the bible because you are educated on it and you do not use it to justify socially incorrect behavior. Other theists do not share the same viewpoints that you do but will use the same book you do to defend them. Now, I can tell them that they do not know what they are talking about, but do you really think they will listen to me?

You see, many of us see religion as quite detrimental to society and many of us were theists at one time. So it is quite natural for us to assume a few things: Theists come here to prostelytize, theists have little knowledge about atheists, theists have little knowledge about science. Science gets harped on a lot here simply because many theists will fill in their lack of understanding with god/faith. This is poor education, not a good basis for belief.

IMO - respect is earned. I do not have a degree in psychology so I cannot tell you the specifics of why, but respect should be earned and most often is. When meeting a perfect stranger, we will be hesitant and guarded until a point of trust is established. Respect most often follows - in degrees. I have had bosses that I have had to obey, but did not respect. I have met people others would consider "bums" for whom I have a great deal of respect.

My original statement still stands: As an atheist, no one gives me respect. I earn it. The same should apply for theists. You and I have developed respect for each other based on the comments each of us has made. Also, as you have said, you have refrained from calling me an evil, immoral person and I have refrained from calling you a delusional nutcase. LOL

Sorry this post is so long...I just felt that it required more than just a one-liner of an answer.  (Doing this goes against everything I was taught about writing, by the way!  LOL) 

Fair enough! This is good advice and probably should be followed a bit more closely by everyone.

Good question. I guess it depends on what they are trying to prove to me in the first place. Yes, if they are saying Jesus absolutely existed. No, if they are simply stating why they believe. There is a difference and a lot of it has to do with how forcefully they are trying to shove something in my face.

I understand what you are saying, but no I do not accept what any one scientist says "on faith". I am a skeptic at heart so I look for supporting evidence and studies. You are right, though, in saying science can be proven wrong. The difference is that science will correct itself for the sake of knowledge. I simply do not see most religions correcting themselves in terms of dogma/doctrine. Plus, when was the last time the bible was updated? LOL

Point taken, but then how do you refute it if they all subscribe to different dogma?

I would call that someone behaving like that an assbag. Some atheists are, you know. As are some theists. Thankfully, not all are this way, which is why you and I can have this conversation.

Good point.  Yeah, I got nothing for this one.  I didn't participate in it nor have I watched any of the videos.  Not my cup of tea but I think it was designed to be a joke.

You realize you are giving way too much credit to theists that are simply interested in spewing hate, don't you? But, I have to agree that we should make an effort to ask and try to enourage some understanding.

Probably not. Maybe. I don't know. I listen and there are others that do, but probably not the majority.

Ahhh...but they do say a thing. Actually, they say quite a few things. LOL There are a few other theists on this site that do not get bashed on simply because they are not arrogant and ignorant of facts. Their faith is respected because it is what it is. Then there are those that seem to have little respect for themselves or their beliefs and they do tend to get knocked around a bit. In the end, this is a predominately atheist website and there are going to be those that disagree with anyone of faith so those discussions will go nowhere. That doesn't mean we should stop trying, though.

Well, I guess if those are my choices then I will pick people being involved. LOL Again, though, this is not something that necessarily comes from religion. It is simply good manners and everyone should exercise them.

Funny story:  There were a couple of guys I work with taunting me about my atheism today and went so far as to call me 'satan lover'. I did not initiate the conversation so I smiled and said nothing because the comment did not dignify a response and I simply did not have the time or inclination to discuss the issue with them. Now, aside from that it is fair to say that I am well regarded at work, considered to be intelligent and diligent (to the point that I get overwhelmed by being known as the person that can "get it done right&quot so it puzzles me that they would say something so very outrageous.

Oh well. The day wasn't all bad. I got to come here and read your post that made me smile and think and I got to see a funny pineapple picture posted by BGH. Life is good (if you want it to be).

Sorry about my absence! I didn't run away, I've been having some internet problems Luckily jce filled in pretty much everything I was going to say for me!

Just to add to the question about what the conversation would be about, as jce said it would mostly be for education, and also to learn more about the person (if you wanted to get to know them better). I sometimes enjoy learning about the religions of people I know that I'm not familiar with, but only for the same reason I'm interested in what people like the Incas and Aztecs and Vikings and Druids of ancient Britain believed. Unfortunately Christianity Islam and Judaism hold no real interest to me as many other religions do. The only reason I would want to learn more of them would be to understand what the people close to me thought.

Respect is something every person has to earn. It's not free, and not everyone deserves it, but every decent human being (imho) should allow another a chance. Also, respect is different from tolerance. I tolerate religious beliefs in the people around me, even though I think they're stupid (the beliefs, not the people... usually). I don't think you can actually respect a belief at all. I give respect to people based on their actions and their words - and their motives. I respect someone for bringing happiness to others with no expectanc of return, or for dedicating their lives to a cause that will help advance society or for sacrificing their opportunities to nurse an invalid family member. I respect doctors who put themselves in danger working with Medecins sans Frontiers but I don't respect religious missionaries going to provide education and medical assistance in order to spread their religion as well.

But what about simply believing something demands respect? I believe that 3rd world debt should be cancelled and that's a nice thing to believe, but you won't see me at a demonstration or anything. I believe in helping the less fortunate, but I don't donate to charities because right now I'm more concerned with becoming financially independent myself (although I did buy a homeless guy a sandwich the other day). I could afford to donate regularly but I don't because I'd rather keep the money. What's to respect about that? And if I did donate money, would that be respectful because of my action or because I just believed that it should be done?

Personally, I give everyone respect. It's easy enough to lose, though:

The drugged up man barely able to stand who walks into Subway and falls on a small child, terrifying the mother? He loses a whole bunch of respect right off the bat. I stand him up and walk him firmly out of the shop and do not let him back in. But I still respect him enough to ensure that I do not hurt him, and to check that he's OK once he's outside. So, he hasn't lost all my respect. Or, perhaps that was out of my own self-respect, so I could hold my head up and not think of myself as an asshole.

The person emailing me bible passages in ALL CAPS in an attempt to convert me? Same thing: he has failed to even try to understand me, he believes that these passages he is pasting are crushing blows that will bring me to the light, he is wasting my time and his own. He is still going to get respect: but his arguments? No. I physically cannot respect his arguments until he argues on a level that I can understand and relate to. They might be awesome arguments that I just don't understand because of my worldview, but if I don't, then I can't respect them.

The atheist, throwing emphatic facts and exclamation marks at a theist, believing them to be crushing blows that should bring the theist into the light... is the exact same.

So, to answer your original question, what would theists and nontheists say to eachother if they felt no need to convert: I think they would do as I am trying to do, and as the people listed in my signature are doing, and try to understand eachother, purely because talking (and arguing!) with people is fun and because it's a stimulating intellectual exercise to understand other worldviews.

That is, instead of trying to convert eachother, we'd try to understand eachother, in an effort to better understand eachother and ourselves. I think that this is one of the common themes in all the posts by those theists in my "set T".

Am I the only one who's answered his question rather than offtopically leaping on his assumptions?

The question as I understand it is "if we didn't have the need to convert, what other stuff would we talk about?"

In light of which... oh, the beautiful irony of the answers.

So you didn't - though you never answered it, just restated the question. What would your guess be, about what we'd talk about?

Shame it got threadjacked, because it had the possibility to be just as nice a thread as the "what are your hopes?" thread It could all be people suggesting the things that would interest them in a friendly, open discussion between non-combative theists and atheists.

And then, maybe, we could use it as a source for cool conversation topics about stuff that isn't bashing eachother!

But maybe I'm hoping too much.

I think we would talk about the things that are important to us. Our lives, our politics, our likes, our dislikes, our hot button issues.... still basically the same things but without the extra component of religion.

That is what I think we would discuss. 

I disagree with you guys on this. First: His premise was impossible to accept as a starting point. Second:
Is there really a point to the question?
I talk to Catholics, Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, and various other adherents (not all theists, but you get the picture) every single day, about things not remotely related to religion. It's a consequence of, uh, living, that you interact with a lot of people you wouldn't agree with on certain points, if those points were to come up. What about it?
The very name "rational responders" suggests a reaction to something: dogma, religion, etc. If religion weren't in the equation, we wouldn't be having a discussion at all.

ABSOLUTELY.  I'm in.... 

"free humanity from the mind disorder known as theism"...

You call that a "rational" response?  Why? 

Don't change the subject. Your complaint has nothing to do with this conversation -- a conversation we wouldn't be having if the topic of religion didn't bring us to this site, which is what I said in the first place.
That's what your original post asked: what would we talk about if not religion? The answer is we wouldn't. The second answer is that atheists and theists talk and interact outside of arguing about religion every single day, and that it's nothing extraordinary. 

I sincerely appreciate it when people break arguments down and point things out in this way. Having had no formal education in logic (or damned near anything else), but wanting to learn how to more effectively engage in debate, it's extremely helpful. Many thanks

And although I may be breaking the "anecdotes suck as evidence" rule (heh)... speaking entirely from (subjective) experience because I haven't researched this particular aspect in great depth, I have observed (in myself, and others I know), that the gods one calls upon in employing mythological platitudes, and the "supernatural" events, hallucinations or feelings one has is wholly dependent upon which mythology - or denomination therein - one's "faith" is currently invested in.

 

Once again I'm offering an anecdote, but what the hell.

I left my own "state of contented apathy" in 1980, when I was an 18 year old agnostic theist, after having been raised a C&E Catholic and then getting "saved" at 15 and rather quickly realizing that I just wasn't cut out to be a Christian because there were just too many questions that didn't have answers that made sense to me.

It was the founding of, and credence lent to, the Moral Majority and the obvious agenda of these new, politically active evangelical megachurches (which included the church where I got "saved&quot that got me fired up. Their ideology was being given so much "respect" that some of my liberties as an adult American citizen were endangered.

Sadly, I've seen things get worse, not better, in almost 30 years. I started fighting because I wanted Christians to keep out of my personal life. Years later I fought because as a pagan I didn't warrant the same "respect" as Christians... and then I became a parent, and our openness about our paganism made me, and my young child targets of some Christian "love" that showed just how much "respect" we got for our beliefs.

Now I fight because those same Christians I knew would do exactly as they have done - to the terrifying extent that the President of the United States actually "consults and confers" with people like Billy Graham and James Dobson - are successfully lobbying to legislate away some of our most fundamental freedoms and I'll be damned if I'll pretend that their ideas are worthy of respect. I've realized that in these matters silence == consent, and I will NOT consent to living as some Christians think I should be legally required to.

Quite frankly, I don't know how I could talk about the issues that are most important to me without it coming down to the "existence" question, because the Christian ideologies that are influencing the policies I disagree with are entirely dependent upon people's belief that their God exists and their Bible is supreme law.

Besides it stands to reason that even if we never addressed "God" here at RRS, and concentrated instead on alien abductions and Sasquatch sightings, at some point evidence that aliens or Bigfoot exist must be requested and/or presented in order for there to be a conversation worth having.

Answering my questions would be nice of you, razorphreak. 

Actually I'm wondering why they are part of a discussion when the question was to learn why such claims are made and their reasoning behind them.  The original question begins with wondering why and based upon that legitimacy wasn't an issue until 5 posts later "oh well it's unproven anyway" pops up. 

Actually for as long as I've been posting on this forum there is usually only one default response - prove it. 

Yes I can if it is my belief they are.  You call this site a "response to the effects of religion" meaning you too believe it to be a "mind disorder", essentially disrespecting what I believe because you don't share that same belief (even if you claim to have previously).  This is like saying prejudice in 21st century America doesn't exist any longer and African-Americans who say it still exists are unwilling to drop the claim even though many will tell you that they have experienced it on a daily basis.  But because you were not there, you don't believe them.  You aren't trying to find out why they think this way, you just dismiss it as "delusions".  Now of course you'll tell me that's not a fair analogy but I guarantee you, to many others, they will understand that perfectly.

They are not the norm and I know that much since I've been posting on this forum. 

Because you don't know God means you are going to hell?  Where did you get that idea? 

Romans 2 - people who do not know God will be judged by their actions in their life. 

I can't speak for anyone else in a church; I go to worship God and fellowship with others.

Well since you were expecting it might as well give it to you.

There is a big difference between posters like you and others like zarathustra or vaslet or jce. Those that I mentioned (and there are several others too) aren't begging for a theist's opinion but want to know it and understand it without judging the person before they know them.  Correct me if I'm wrong please, but you seem to have a huge chip on your shoulder, that all theists no matter who they are cause this antipathy and set you off beyond measure.  You made the statement that atheists would go to hell.  I simply asked you where did you get that idea from and your response...condesending.  You didn't explain to me WHY you have that opinion even though I asked for it.  Just like in the other thread, and I'm still not sure why, you chose to attack instead of discuss.  This thread was meant to find out why you are like that and ask the very simple question - if you were to stop the aggressive attack on theists (such as the "prove it" statements), what would there be to discuss with other theists?  I know what you think of me as a believer but WHY do you hate?

Then let me put it to you this way - rephrase your questions. If you want to know why, in accordance to theist belief, why this or that is wrong and/or immoral, don't leave the question asking for an opinion. Don't start a discussion about Christianity only looking to bash it because the only "proof" as you see it is a book you don't accept. If all you want is to bash a theist, go do it in the forum where a theist isn't allowed to post.

magilum wrote:

1. You're not a minority in the US. Don't even bother making that comparison. I wouldn't even do it as part of a reviled atheist minority. - and? Because someone or a group of people are considered the majority they don't experience hatred?

2. Your religion is a tradition, not a genetic trait. Your beliefs are up for debate, especially where they affect other people. - if you are asking for my view on an issue, you aren't asking to debate my beliefs but ask me what they are. It isn't respectul to ask and then bash them because of YOUR beliefs.

3. Being black doesn't entail anything about gay marriage, embryonic stem cell research, abortion rights, the way that religiously-organized political blocs do. - what does that have anything to do with me asking you why do you ask for my opinion and then belittle it for no reason other than you don't agree?

Again the questions that you and others ask, like hamby asking about which 10 commandments are valid (and receiving a response clairfying), are asking a theist in accordance to their beliefs their view. Taking what the theist said to use it as an opportunity to say "well you can't prove the book is valid" shows alterior motive to even asking the question to begin with. You want proof as to why a Christian believes so then you should be expecting that proof to come from the book they believe.  That's all you asked for; not proof the bible was real.  If you wanted that, it should be a different thread.  So asking me why Jesus said something and I tell you IS substantiating my beliefs.  You going into if Jesus existed or not is you going off topic for no other reason than to criticize my beliefs.  See the difference?

Razorphreak, I forgot what an obnoxious time waster you are. I'm going to snip the shit out of your posts where you veer off topic or use crap analogies.

You're laboring under the delusion you're a special consultant doe eyed atheists flock to for advice. You once said that Christianity isn't a religion, but a "way of faith." You offered nothing to back that up. Textom clarified why come Christians believe one covenant negates another, and he provided history on it, without a bunch of hemming and hawing and subjective opinion. Stop trying to reframe the site according to your preferences. That applies to anything. We would waive the right to question any belief, not matter how absurd. We'd be sitting with our thumbs up our butts, while we nod in helpless approval of folks in tinfoil hats, running home before the sabbath, and the committing honor killings. No, again, you beliefs don't get a free ride. Who are you talking about? Whenever you reply to me it's like you think you're talking to about fifty people. Haha. Oh, you were serious. Hmm. PKB, bitch.