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An Honest Question for Theists.
Posted on: May 17, 2007 - 10:47am
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An Honest Question for Theists.
Just bear with me, I'm trying something new here.
Answer the following questions.
Okay, lets say that for whatever reason, you begin to have doubts about your faith. Does the idea that there is no God frighten you?
Why does it frighten you?
OR
Why does it NOT frighten you?
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If the supernatural has any effect on the natural then those effects must be able to be measured otherwise they simply didn't happen! Any effect on the natural world must, in principle, be measurable. If its not then it simply does not exsit.
I'm not sure whether its a necessity that they could not in principle co-exist. I don't think that science can explain God because science is about explaining the real world and God is a fiction. God is not real and hence science can explain God - there is nothing to explain!
Ok
It's interesting that these two quotes come from two of the most brilliant minds of the 20th century:
The whole history of science has been the gradual realization that events do not happen in an arbitrary manner, but that they reflect a certain underlying order, which may or may not be divinely inspired.
Stephen Hawking
"Everyone who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe - a spirit vastly superior to that of man...In this way the pursuit of science leads to a religious feeling of a special sort, which is indeed quite different from the religiosity of someone more naive."
Albert Einstein
Both of these men - brilliant scientists / thinkers and undoubtedly atheists - are clever enough to acknowledge that maybe - just maybe - there's something "greater" at work behind the origins of the universe / life in general. And while they don't believe in God in the sense that I do, they're far too clever (and humble..!!) to actually come out and say there is no God.
And yet, you'll have posters like Evil Religion and so many others here - both atheists and theists - coming up with these incredibly bold and definitive statements - i.e. there is NO God and I can prove it/ there definitely is a God and I can prove it or God doesn't exist and I can prove it/ God definitely exists and I can prove it or if you believe in God, you must be suffering from some sort of mind disorder.
It's really very interesting to see the contrast between people who truly are brilliant versus those who only think they're smart..!!
We're just looking at different meanings here. I'm refering more to uncertainty.
Yeah. I figured that'd be it. I have problems bringing concepts from that level to the macroscopic scale. Unimaginably small things are hard to imagine
The sentence below is false.
The sentence above is true.
This sentence doesn't care.
The supernatural is out of the scope of nature. If something has an effect on nature then it isn't supernatural, but natural.
If the superantural can have no detectable effect on the world then it simply does not exist! If something is unmeassurable in anyway then its does not exist. If it can have no effect then its simply does not exist. I'm more than happy to concede this. But what I was atempting to do was to prevent theists form wriggling out of things with statements "Oh well like you can't measure the superantural but its still real and important. God can affect us with his superanatural powers but its beyond science" NO! Its not! if Gods superantural powers can have effect on the real world then those effects MUST, at least in principle, be measureable. If they are not then they simply didn't happen!
I agree entirely. What I was trying to say is that if God exists and can have an effect on us then SURELY he has to exist in the natural world, otherwise such a being would exist in a world outside the scope of nature and not even be of consequence to us as he could not possibly "do" anything to us in any measurable way.
In other words, there are three possible scenarios.
1. God does not exist.
2. God is supernatural and thus can not be measured (alternatively he can't do anything measurable to us).
3. God is natural and CAN be measured (he can do things to us).
Either way you look at it, the odds are entirely againt a God that can be measured and can do things to us.
well, i am a theist, although not necessarily christian. lets just suffice to say i believe in a god.
i would not classify the thought of god not existing as frightening. if he does not exist, then you know what... ive had a pretty kick *** life, done some cool stuff, helped some people aloong the way. and generally had a good time. if i die and there is nothing else, then hey, i had a pretty good run.on this note... why on earth would you assume that a god who in effect created the universe and all the rules therein, would be bound by those same rules?
god could very well be beyond the relm of natural, or supernatural (as it is understood today) and able to affect both. if he did affect the natural world, sure you would probably be able to measure it. hovever you may never even realize that it IS god affecting the natural world. the odds arent against god being able to affect the physical world, the odds are against us explaining or recognising it.
granted... this is a lot of speculation.
I've sort of made a life out of doubting my faith, so this is familiar territory. Sure it scares me to think that there is no God. It scares me because the only thing that I know is consciousness, so if death really is the end, that makes it scary right now.
If there is a God, death still scares me though, for the same reason I stated above.