Proofs that prayer doesn't work.
Offline Unless of course the goal is talking to yourself, prayer doesn't work.
We review the following article at the beginning of show 15 featuring Amanda Bloom. You can download that show for free right here.
Long-Awaited Medical Study Questions the Power of Prayer
Published: March 31, 2006
By BENEDICT CAREYStory from New York Times and all over web. Prayers offered by strangers had no effect on the recovery of people who were undergoing heart surgery, a large and long-awaited study has found.
And patients who knew they were being prayed for had a higher rate of post-operative complications like abnormal heart rhythms, perhaps because of the expectations the prayers created, the researchers suggested.
Because it is the most scientifically rigorous investigation of whether prayer can heal illness, the study, begun almost a decade ago and involving more than 1,800 patients, has for years been the subject of speculation.
The question has been a contentious one among researchers. Proponents have argued that prayer is perhaps the most deeply human response to disease, and that it may relieve suffering by some mechanism that is not yet understood. Skeptics have contended that studying prayer is a waste of money and that it presupposes supernatural intervention, putting it by definition beyond the reach of science.
At least 10 studies of the effects of prayer have been carried out in the last six years, with mixed results. The new study was intended to overcome flaws in the earlier investigations. The report was scheduled to appear in The American Heart Journal next week, but the journal's publisher released it online yesterday.
In a hurriedly convened news conference, the study's authors, led by Dr. Herbert Benson, a cardiologist and director of the Mind/Body Medical Institute near Boston, said that the findings were not the last word on the effects of so-called intercessory prayer. But the results, they said, raised questions about how and whether patients should be told that prayers were being offered for them.
"One conclusion from this is that the role of awareness of prayer should be studied further," said Dr. Charles Bethea, a cardiologist at Integris Baptist Medical Center in Oklahoma City and a co-author of the study.
Other experts said the study underscored the question of whether prayer was an appropriate subject for scientific study.
"The problem with studying religion scientifically is that you do violence to the phenomenon by reducing it to basic elements that can be quantified, and that makes for bad science and bad religion," said Dr. Richard Sloan, a professor of behavioral medicine at Columbia and author of a forthcoming book, "Blind Faith: The Unholy Alliance of Religion and Medicine."
The study cost $2.4 million, and most of the money came from the John Templeton Foundation, which supports research into spirituality. The government has spent more than $2.3 million on prayer research since 2000.
Dean Marek, a chaplain at the Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minn., and a co-author of the report, said the study said nothing about the power of personal prayer or about prayers for family members and friends.
Working in a large medical center like Mayo, Mr. Marek said, "You hear tons of stories about the power of prayer, and I don't doubt them."
In the study, the researchers monitored 1,802 patients at six hospitals who received coronary bypass surgery, in which doctors reroute circulation around a clogged vein or artery.
The patients were broken into three groups. Two were prayed for; the third was not. Half the patients who received the prayers were told that they were being prayed for; half were told that they might or might not receive prayers.
The researchers asked the members of three congregations St. Paul's Monastery in St. Paul; the Community of Teresian Carmelites in Worcester, Mass.; and Silent Unity, a Missouri prayer ministry near Kansas City ? to deliver the prayers, using the patients' first names and the first initials of their last names.
The congregations were told that they could pray in their own ways, but they were instructed to include the phrase, "for a successful surgery with a quick, healthy recovery and no complications."
Analyzing complications in the 30 days after the operations, the researchers found no differences between those patients who were prayed for and those who were not.
In another of the study's findings, a significantly higher number of the patients who knew that they were being prayed for ? 59 percent ? suffered complications, compared with 51 percent of those who were uncertain. The authors left open the possibility that this was a chance finding. But they said that being aware of the strangers' prayers also may have caused some of the patients a kind of performance anxiety.
"It may have made them uncertain, wondering am I so sick they had to call in their prayer team?" Dr. Bethea said.
The study also found that more patients in the uninformed prayer group 18 percent suffered major complications, like heart attack or stroke, compared with 13 percent in the group that did not receive prayers. In their report, the researchers suggested that this finding might also be a result of chance.
One reason the study was so widely anticipated was that it was led by Dr. Benson, who in his work has emphasized the soothing power of personal prayer and meditation.
At least one earlier study found lower complication rates in patients who received intercessory prayers; others found no difference. A 1997 study at the University of New Mexico, involving 40 alcoholics in rehabilitation, found that the men and women who knew they were being prayed for actually fared worse.
The new study was rigorously designed to avoid problems like the ones that came up in the earlier studies. But experts said the study could not overcome perhaps the largest obstacle to prayer study: the unknown amount of prayer each person received from friends, families, and congregations around the world who pray daily for the sick and dying.
Bob Barth, the spiritual director of Silent Unity, the Missouri prayer ministry, said the findings would not affect the ministry's mission.
"A person of faith would say that this study is interesting," Mr. Barth said, "but we've been praying a long time and we've seen prayer work, we know it works, and the research on prayer and spirituality is just getting started."
Here's a youtube video from our friends at godisimaginary.com:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BH0rFZIqo8A
Here's a thought from honorary Squad member, the Infidel Guy:
What is the purpose of prayer? What can a finite being on Earth possibly tell an omnipotent, omniscient deity that he doesn't know already?
1.) Humans can't change God's mind for he has a divine plan and is unchangeable.
2.) Prayer can't change God's mind.
3.) Prayer doesn't change anything.
(Prayer may make you feel better emotionally, but it doesn`t change God`s mind.)
Stop talking to your ceiling, prayer doesn't work.
Vote for Democrats to save us all from the anti-American Republican party!
- Login to post comments
My cousin sent me a stupid-ass Christian chainmail saying she will pray for me. Course she's a devout Catholic and knows Im athesist, so she sent it. I sent the prayer video to her, lol.
Maybe they used the wrong congregations and thereby the wrong deity :smt023
I would love the irony just to see better results from Rastafari prayer
The paper read yesterday, the earth exploded, nobody noticed the passing of this hapless planet.
I have proof.
Last year, my friend thought prayer would work.
We had this outdoor rock fest thing, and it started to sprinkle. Sure enough, he figured JC or God could help us out. So he went and prayed for awhile.
2 hours later. It fuckin poured.
God is the omnimax creator by definition of major religions. If there is evidence that the religion is incorrect about the nature of reality, then there is evidence that the God the religion defines does not exist.
the video's illogical.
it presupposes atheism; then does a bait-and-switch with Christianity, and attempts to invoke God to do something (all the while comparing God's capability to a horseshoe, nonetheless); at the point, the entire things becomes an obvious aberration.
i liked the subtle, brainwashing mantra, though; the zealous repitition of, "if you're a normal, intelligent person..." after every irrational contention he made.
it's almost as if the only way he could assure himself that his illogicality was "rational" was to acridly, yet indirectly, insult the people who were the subjects of his presentation.
i'm a bit letdown that you guys would promote this YouTube video. so much for the "rational" part in rationalresponders.
-adamryan
"There is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but pointless indifference. We are machines for propagating DNA. It is every living object's sole reason for being."- Richard Dawkins
lol, Yup, so much for us being rational. Before you know it we'll be talking to our ceilings before we go to bed.
Vote for Democrats to save us all from the anti-American Republican party!
Please become a Patron of Brian Sapient
sapient, come on, level with me; the entire "scientific experiment" was done by satirical atheists.
it's interesting how the video was based only on two verses; both of which speak nothing about actual prayer, what is, what it isn't, etc etc.
it's bait-and-switch; and it's the only way the video could have been made. if any of the other verses that explain prayer were cited, the video would become non sequitur.
"But when he asks, he must believe and not doubt, because he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. That man should not think he will receive anything from the Lord; he is a double-minded man, unstable in all he does."
-James 1:6-7
the video presupposed from the start that prayer wouldn't work.
if a "scientific conclusion" is defined as a conclusion made which is the logical outcome of a test (paraphrasing here), then that entire video just became scientifically disproved by that one verse I just quoted.
"prayer" can't be measured using the scientific method.
any "normal, intelligent person" can see that.
"There is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but pointless indifference. We are machines for propagating DNA. It is every living object's sole reason for being."- Richard Dawkins
The lucky horse shoe idea sounds pretty solid as a comparison to prayer. Although I doubt they did all the studies they seem to talk about. I do know there were a few studies done.
I do see the point of complaining about him saying "a normal rational person" all the time. However you do realize we are talking about people talking to themselves so good stuff will happen right?
I suggest someone pick up some of his arguments, re-tool them, and make a new video. That or talk to the guy who made it.
it's not a sound comparison at all.
the video is out to "prove" that prayer doesn't work, and so, in order for the video to be objectively true, it must be unbias from the beginning.
but that's not what's happened here; what's happened is that the creator of the video has ruled out that prayer doesn't work a priori, and then elaborated his opinion using ridiculous comparisons that don't in corroborate his said contention.
I created a (cynical) comparison to show the illogicality of a contention that disregards all information that relates to the subject [the movie based it's entire "proof" just two verses from the NT], and is based solely on an a priori opinion:
"There is no such thing as the 1996 Ford Mustang. Anyone who believes that the 1996 Ford Mustang exists is in self-delusion, since I can prove that the 1996 Ford Mustang does not exist. Here is my first proof that the 1996 Ford Mustang doesn't exist: here, look in this parking lot full of Hondas, Nissans, Chevrolets, Mazdas, and Saturns. See? Notice how there are no 1996 Ford Mustangs? It's because the 1996 Ford Mustang doesn't exist. Anyone who believes so is in self-delusion. Here's my second proof that the 1996 Ford Mustang does not exist: here 's a list of every car that I've ever owned: 1998 Toyota Camry, 1993 Toyota Tacoma, 2001 Ford F150, and a 1988 Volkswagen. See? Notice how there are no 1996 Ford Mustangs? It's because the 1996 Ford Mustang doesn't exist. Anyone who believes so is in self-delusion. Here's my third proof that the 1996 Ford Mustang doesn't exist: here's a list of cars that I like: 1966 Ford Mustang, 1978 El Camino, and 1973 Firebird Trans AM. See? Notice how there are no 1996 Ford Mustangs? It's because the 1996 Ford Mustang doesn't exist. Anyone who believes so is in self-delusion."
if atheism is true, then that video is simple logic.
but the video wasn't created to address the cogency of theism or atheism, so for it to presuppositionally assume that atheism is true contaminates it's entire purpose.
i should make a YouTube video rebuttal.
-adamryan
"There is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but pointless indifference. We are machines for propagating DNA. It is every living object's sole reason for being."- Richard Dawkins
You do realize no one can be completely unbiased right?
So what do you think of prayer?
I think it is just an elaborate placebo mixed with whatever keeps astrology going and a bit of thinking.
Good luck making a YouTube rebuttal that will be in and of itself biased and contradictory to your own criteria.
This film was actually unbiased. It showed very clearly, citing specific examples and drawing correlations from such, that the power of prayer does not wok.
Say unto thine own heart, "I am mine own redeemer."
The Book Of Satan IV:3, The Satanic Bible
Actually the video was quite fair... The verses cited are said to be the "truth" as given by a "perfect" God. Christians frequently cite those verses as proof that God answers prayers. In fact, in my experience Christians will cite those verses PRIOR to giving real life examples.
Your comparison is nonsense. The video was comparing effects of two different forms of stimulous on various objects. You were trying to disprove the existence of a physical object... the two are so completely dissimilar that I'm actually frightened you considered it a valid analogy.
Actually, the existence of God was not discussed in the video at all. The video discussed the effectiveness of prayer. It's completely possible (given the examples from the video) that God exists, but he simply ignores prayers. The "lucky horseshoe" definately exists, yet it refuses to answer prayers regardless of how much you believe it to be effective... it's possible God is just as real, but just as powerless.
In fact, there are many Deists who believe in a God who created the universe, then left it to it's own divices... in other words, a God who exists but doesn't answer prayers. This deist viewpoint is in complete agreement with the video.
Obviously it's also VERY possible that there is no God to answer prayers, but the topic of whether God exists but doesn't answer prayers, or whether there just isn't a God to answer prayers isn't addressed at all.
There is no atheist a priori.
I would love to see your rebuttal...
"Praying doesn't affect the roll of dice because...."
"Praying to heal cancer won't work because...."
"Praying to cure amputees won't work because...."
"BUT GOD ANSWERS PRAYERS!!!"
Now THAT would be a great video!
"Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?"
-- Douglas Adams, from Last Chance To See
what part of what i wrote was hard to understand?
While prayer in no way provides wants or needs, it does help certain people focus on what they want, and why they want it. Maybe also a little self confidence?
Mheh, whatever works for you.
LMAO. What part of what was written to you was hard to understand?
Have you ever prayed for something and not received/experienced it?
Did you attribute that to god's will?
How many times does that need to happen in order for you to give up on prayer?
Does one time of it happening because of another indirect occurrence mean that your particular prayer worked?
Insane people do the same thing over and over while expecting a different result.
Atheist Books, purchases on Amazon support the Rational Response Squad server, which houses Celebrity Atheists.
Also following that, it seems that some of us are insane for even trying to ask you to examine anything from an unbiased perspective.
Atheist Books, purchases on Amazon support the Rational Response Squad server, which houses Celebrity Atheists.
http://nccam.nih.gov/news/newsletter/2005_winter/prayer.htm
Well, prayer does accomplish one thing!
An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded.
“If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you.”
-John 15:7
A lot of times prayers go unanswered because we don't talk to God, we talk to ourselves. We don't really think prayer will work, but we still do it anyway because we're raised that way, think it helps us calm down mentally, to see if God will maybe help us out "in this one time only", etc etc; even though we don't expect Him to.
We wind up being like that king in Hamlet, who prayed to try to ease the guilt he felt over his sin (murder), but it wasn't effective at all, and "it didn't even reach the ceiling."
“And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight.”
-1 John 3:22
How many of the people who have unanswered prayers, actually keep God's commandments and "do those things that are pleasing in His sight.” ?
Of course, it doesn't mean that just because you keep God's commandments, He'll give you whatever you want, obviously (James 4:3), but it certainly is a necessity and does strengthen our faith in God when our prayers are answered.
unanswered prayer doesn't mean prayer doesn't work.
I agree. Like voting for Bush twice. =]
-adamryan
"There is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but pointless indifference. We are machines for propagating DNA. It is every living object's sole reason for being."- Richard Dawkins
Unfortunately a lot of the people who voted for GWB actually like what he's doing.
I prayed for 10 million dollars 30 years ago and I'm not even close.
It just simply doesnt work because there is nothing to pray to!
People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.
I think you pretty much said it all right there.
Even when you "expect him to," God frequently disappoints.
This could be the problem... NO ONE is "good enough" for God to bother answering their prayers. (Romans 3:23) "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God."
Actually, this could be made into a plausible argument... although it wouldn't prove that prayers are answered, it would only explain why God ignores prayer.
Sorry... but this is just crap. If a prayer isn't answered, then IT DIDN'T WORK! If it worked, it would've been answered!
By your logic, the fact the lucky horseshoe didn't affect the outcome of an event doesn't mean it's not lucky... and a failed experiment is just as much proof as a successful one.
How can you survive in the real world thinking this way? If you truely believed this way, you'd have to be the most gullible person in the world...
Come on... Get serious. If something doesn't obtain the desired result, then it failed... especially when the ENTIRE POINT of performing said action was to obtain a specific result.
"Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?"
-- Douglas Adams, from Last Chance To See
But that's okay... because according to adamryan the fact that you didn't get what you prayed for shouldn't be considered evidence that your prayer didn't work.
"Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?"
-- Douglas Adams, from Last Chance To See
it's a good thing that you didn't completely take what I said out of context, and ignore the rest of what I said.
I don't really see why you'd bother regurgitating this statement; i sort of explained it already.
This could be the problem... NO ONE is "good enough" for God to bother answering their prayers. (Romans 3:23) "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God."
"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life, through Christ Jesus, our Lord."
-Romans 6:23
"Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has gone through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are--yet was without sin. Let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need."
-Hebrews 4:14-16
with Christ, our prayers are heard and our sins absolved. you're wrong; God does "bother" with our prayers.
God doesn't ignore prayer. Just because there are people who would like to think that, and make youtube videos about it, and attempt to "rationalize" them away doesn't make it fact.
All that's needed to prove that prayer works is one example of when it has; personally, I believe that there's been more than one of those.
prayer isn't a Hey-God!-do-this-for-me-NOW! button.
and it seems like you're not really arguing from logic, but emotion and personal experience.
if i were to say "prayer works, and I know from personal experience", then immediately there'd be someone who'd retort, "it's a coincidence", or "you're lying, or over-exaggerating", etc etc.
let's avoid personal experiences and stick to logic.
what you just said holds no ground on a purely logical standpoint, since I've already stated that there are plenty of reasons why prayer seems to go unanswered.
again, God isn't at the mercy of our own wills.
prayer isn't an easy way to obtain monetary gain, authoritative status, etc etc; alot of times our prayers, when we truly look at what we're asking for, are for said things.
and even then, just because "prayers" that didn't come to fruition seem to outweigh the ones that do, doesn't make prayer pointless and dead.
-adamryan
"There is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but pointless indifference. We are machines for propagating DNA. It is every living object's sole reason for being."- Richard Dawkins