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I find this odd
Posted on: June 16, 2007 - 1:10pm
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I find this odd
Whenever a Christrian kills somebody because of an irrational reason (demonic possesian, infidels etc...) people seem to blame it on Christrianity, completely dismissing the fact the person may very well have a mental disorder.
So why jump to the conlusion they did it because soley of their religion?
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I totally get you. I guess the point is that these people justify themselves by their religion. There are very few atheist murderers who use atheism as an excuse. When was the last time there was a murder in the news where the murderer's motive was: "There is no God, therefore..." It doesn't happen. Of course, if you can find an example I will change my mind in a truly scientific way.
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They're definitely far outside the mainstream of Christianity. I'm guessing, but the post could suggest:
1. Make believe is a slippery slope for unstable people.2. Religion justifies the best and worst human traits, and demeans your natural ability to tell between the two.
I've never jumped to the conclusion that it happens solely because of their religion, but it's a factor. They've been taught and raised to believe in a mysterious, magical, supernatural reality. Believing in this supernatural existance is not conducive to remaining firmly grounded in reality, and when mental illness creeps in that individual isn't as well equipped to mitigate it with reason.
I would say because many people with mental disorders usually don't kill for their atheistic beliefs, on the norm it's due to god told them to or because the victim was possesed or a demon etc. Now I don't say it was christianity that made them do it, however i would say their religous mind set was a factor. Only because religious beliefs can and have overridden common sense in many people, and put that into a person with possible mental disorder and it can be even more dangerous. The idea tha the person or victim isn't human because they are possesed or are a demon makes it easier and justifiable in their mind to injure or kill someone. Even worse if they feel that or believe that God ordered them to kill, as this has been demostrated before that if god is believed to give the order then many will justify killing others.
So why jump to the conlusion they did it because soley of their religion?
Why do you assume that is what we do?
As already explained by others, rational informed people neither
1. "Jump to conclusion", rather we consider what factors may be involved in a typical case; or
2. Assume it is "solely" because of the religion.
So it is you who are jumping to simplistic conclusions.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
what about when the police arrest somebody and charge them with a violent crime such as murder or rape, and the suspect's friends and family act shocked because the individual "regularly attended church"? as if this should imply that their above wrong doing?
or when tragedy befalls a person or family, and their neighbors are dismayed because they were "good church going" folk? as if believing in god should have protected them from any harm?
it's as if society actually, really believes that religion acts as a prophylactic against bad luck and bad behavior.
www.derekneibarger.com http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=djneibarger "all postures of submission and surrender should be part of our prehistory." -christopher hitchens
I notice some people do assume it is soley because of religion. I didn't name any names and I'm not accusing you of doing it
I don't understand that either. A person who goes to church is just as capable of killing as anyone else. The fact is people are human and are prone to evil acts regardless of their religion.
I completely agree with you on that Cpt_pineapple. We are humans and all our errors are due to the fact that we are humans. What we are doesn't change, who we are changes all the time however. The only reason i would suspect there are more believers than non believers is because there are far more believers. However in Russia i would suspect the majority of those in jail are/where at one point atheistic just due to the fact that there is a majority of atheists in Russia, or at least there was, i dont' know now
However when it comes to mental disorders, I have found, in my personal experience, that religion seems to play a big role in it all, most see/hear demons, satan, god etc. A handfull of "atheistic" mentally distrubed people that i met, still saw fantasy creatures, everything from gargoyles to leprechauns and pixies
So the real question would be how much does religion play in those with mental disorders that would lead them to kill and or injure others?
OK. So if you are asking why do some people jump to unjustified conclusions, well that is simply that many people don't think things thru all the time, hardly a big mystery. Doesn't require any remarkable powers of observation.
Starting a thread here with such a question does sort of suggest you think a significant number of people here do tend to do this, otherwise why bother?
If you are not suggesting that many atheists tend to do that, what is your point?
I, and many others here, would agree that jumping to such a conclusion was poor reasoning. However, as has already been pointed out, that does not mean that we don't think that religious beliefs can contribute to various psychological problems.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
The main reason this thought came to mind is during a conversation with one of my theist friends. We were discussing this very topic when we saw a news story about religious terrorist/killings. He asked some good questions:
1)If someone thought their kid is possed by aliens, would people think they are mentally ill? If so why not draw the same conclusion when they think it is possed by demons?
2)How many terrorist acts are commited by religious extremeist? In the media, you mainly see religious terrorist acts, but as my friend pointed out, the world has it's share of secular terrorist groups.
Oh and I never said religion couldn't contribute. You just have to take it on a case to case basis.
I see what you're saying Cpt_pineapple. I think the problem is in the way some of us atheists communicate, rather than our underlying opinioins. We all (I hope) know that the vast majority of musilms are lovely people (if a bit insular) who wouldn't dream of strapping explosives to themselves and walking into a crouded restauant. Just the same we don't have any fear that the christians next door will kill us to exorcise our demons.
Many of us do however think that believing in untestable supernatural beings who hand down moral absolutes, through the mouths of men makes it possible to do terrible things you might not otherwise have done. Yes we recognise it requires other weaknesses (such as mental illness) If we didn't we wouldn't be able to trusty any christian, and I'm sure you've seen that's not the case. However when we discuss examples where we feel it's poosible someone might not have been so destuctive without religion we do not feel the need to include a disclaimer - "We recognise that this example represents a very small fraction of a percent of belivers and there were probably other factors".
We do recognise that there had to be other factors, however we discuss the one factor that is relevant to this discussion - faith.
I think really it's just upsetting to us to see people kill themselves and others over a fantasy. There may be things that are valid to kill and die for but an arbitary and untestable belief is not one of them
Oh, a lesson in not changing history from Mr. I'm-My-Own-Grandpa!
Why not indeed. I see no problem thinking of both cases as deranged.
Of course I would feel that, secular or otherwise, a common feature of people committing terrorist acts is absolute committment to some dogma, whether political theory or religious idea. That is the problem, absolutism and intolerance for opposing points of view, often with a drive to explicitly force everybody to follow their model of how society should be organised. Would you agree?
If someone professing to be an atheist wanted to 'de=convert' people by force, that would be equally reprehensible.
Fine, so on this issue, we are basically in agreement, it appears.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
It depends entirely on cause and effect. Since we allready know the effect of the actions, the cause needs to be filled with something logical.
If a mother kills her children because they were possessed and God told her to do so, it's both mental illness and religion that is the culprit, not one or the other.
However, events such as 9/11 are completely religion based. I seriously doubt you could say that many, if any, of the terrorists on the 9/11 attacks were mentally disabled.
Coincidentally, though, most murders where religion is brought up is probably the cause. I don't mean "A lady, who was a Christian, killed her kids today" but more of a "A lady, who thought her children were possessed and heard the word of God, killed her kids today." Yeah, you can't really blame that on much of anything else.
And no, it's not solely the fault of religion, but what if religion wasn't there? Would the murder have happened even if the illness creeped in? Probably not.