Pure gibberish. Group hallucination is documented, especially under social pressure as the instance at Fatima was.

And I utterly reject that "scientists said that the energy required to produce that sudden dryness, would be equal to a ten megaton bomb." Now you are simply making shit up.

Get your head out of your ass. Hallucinations and mistaking something that looks like something else as a sign of God is a well known and documented phenomena.

 All Fatima was was this:

On a larger scale.

Here's a Skeptical Inquirer article on Fatima:

Politicizing the Virgin Mary:
The Instance of the Madonna of Medjugorje

http://www.csicop.org/si/2002-11/medjugorje.html

Apparently individual experiences of the paranormal can, on some occasions, be shown to arise largely out of the broadest social forces, including even those that result in cross-national warfare.

Can you show me where goup hallucination is documented? 70 thousand people seeing the exact same thing is a bit of a strech on your part to suggest a group hallucination. Also, it doesn't explain the sudden dryness of the mudd and the documented healings.

You're entitled to your opinion. You just happen to be wrong.

Where? 70 thousand people? The ground instantly turns from slush to mudd and healings occured. I agree hallucinations exist, but Fatima was no hallucination. Also, the prophecies the Blessed Virgin gave have been fulfilled. How do you explain that? I think you're desperate and really reaching for a naturalist explanation, but its not going to work here. Sorry.

That's Medjegorji not Fatima. The former definately has supernatural elements to it, but it is not from God.

Excuse me?  Watch what you say.  Since you gave me some bullshit website that is purely about promoting the supposed Fatima miracle, just quickly looked at Wiki.  While I'll take neither for truth (trusting your website is like taking the Bible as god's word).  I'm sure you can figure out how to find the info on Wikipedia on your own.  

I suggest that you try to have a little class when you're on this forum.  Calling people liars right off the bat doesn't exactly make friends. 

Um, what?  I didn't tell you to get your head out of your ass.  I told you to get a little class and respect people who haven't disrespected you.  

So let me get this straight...

 If people leave the church it fulfulls prophesy and prooves christianity is right, if people return to the church it's a miracle and prooves christianity.

Ok, nobody do anything. The only way non-christians can win this is to do absolutely nothing.

Stop! you right there, I saw that, don't you move, you're prooving christianity.

Have you ever tried to walk in mud up to your knees? It's virtually impossible. Someone's standing knee-high in something alright...

So, all those people were stuck in knee-high mud casts?

The only miracle that occurred in Fatima in 1917 was that a hoax created almost 100 years ago would still be believed as fact by people today.

Yeah, back in 1917 people realized people wouldn't buy the church's BS and leave for more intelligent pastures.  This isn't a news flash.  What's amazing is that you still buy the crap you believe.  A bunch of people get delusions and you think that means what they saw was real.  My dad told me of a time when he was in Arizona and saw a weather balloon.  He mentioned how people reported sighting a UFO making all sorts of bizarre movements like a spacecraft might.  Despite those people believing they saw an alien craft still doesn't change the fact it was a weather balloon.

BTW, if you hadn't noticed the sun shines on half the planet so some "miracle" involving the sun wouldn't be visible to a few people on a small geographical location on the planet.  You just killed your credibility.  How do you feel about that? 

 Witchcraft is growing in Europe and America. Southern California has the highest concentration of witches in the world. I'm not talking about witches on flying brooms. Witchraft is a religion and has even won status in the armed forces.

 The blessed Virgin stated that there would be a loss of faith and people would leave the Church. This has happened in the droves. Since the 1960's it is estimated that around 60% of Catholics have left the Church. This was true in America and especially Europe.

 And they have accepted the apparitions and miracles of Fatima.

Yeah, and Louis Pasteur predicted in 1862 that the belief that flies spontenously arose from poop would decrease too.  Thomas Jefferson predicted that religious belief would decrease in America with the advent of increased education.  Heck, he was right about that as well and that predated your prediction.

Again, people losing a belief in something absurd isn't a divine prediction, it's restating the obvious.  The belief in phrenology was predicted in the 20th century to eventually fall out of favor in the field of criminology.  Sure enough that prediction came true as well.

Do you have a point or is it your intent to convince us that you have a weak grasp on reality?

In 1917? She also predicted world war 2, famine, the persecution of the Church and the pope. All of this has occured. She also said that two of the children would soon be with her. They died two years later.

 I've already given my argument. The miracle of the sun was witnessed by 70 thousand people, and this has not been refuted.

I find it fascinating that atheists don't believe in God, the easter bunny, tooth fairy and flying spaghetti monster, but they find a troll under every bush.

    Shall we check out these so called prophecies. Lets start off with the first one.

The war is going to end," Lucia quoted the Blessed Mother as saying, "but if people do not cease offending God, a worse one will break out during the reign of Pius XI. When you see a night illumined by an unknown light, know that this is the great sign given to you by God that He is about to punish the world for its crimes, by means of war, famine and persecutions of the Church and of the Holy Father."

Ok so we all agree, WWI ended (which it was bound to anyways) and WWII did occur which we all agree was far worse than WWI. Famine (shall we look throughout history for famine, especially when  the prediction is done supposedly during WWI)  and persecutions of the chruch and the holy father, again not really a far strectch here, since protestant churches were rising in Europe. So for a prediction done in 1917, why wasn't the first part reveled until 1940, after the break of WWII? Of course she also mentions Pope Pius XI, which did reign from 1922 - 1939, ummm could this be some future telling of a pope or....self fulfilling prophecy? As for the light part, Sister Lucia supposedly saw the light in 1938 which she said would predict the coming of war, yet it was the aurora borealis that was visible across Europe on Janurary 25th, 1938.  Not some unknown light.

    Second prophecy states "When you see a night illumined by an unknown light, know that this is the great sign given you by God that he is about to punish the world. To prevent this, I shall come to ask for the consecration of Russia to My Immaculate Heart, and the Communion of Reparation on the First Saturdays [of each month]. If My requests are heeded, Russia will be converted, and there will be peace; if not, she will spread her errors throughout the world, causing wars and persecutions of the Church. The good will be martyred, the Holy Father will have much to suffer, various nations will be annihilated."

    Ok many believe that this indicates the spread of communisim by Russia. However in 1984 Pope John II consecreated Russia, has there been a great conversion in Russia? umm nope, has there been peace since the consecration? nope many many many little and now of course major war, no world war III but still no peace.

    And of course the third prophecy which was not revealed by Lucia until 1944, which she handed it over to Portugal's Bishop of Leiria. She told him that Our Lady's instructions were that it was not to be revealed to the public until 1960. The Bishop turned over the prophecy to the Vatican. In 1960, Paul John XXIII opened the sealed prophecy and read it, and the faithful anxiously awaited its promised revelation. But it was not to be. In apparent defiance of the Blessed Mother's instructions, the Pope refused to reveal the contents of the prophecy saying, "This prophecy does not relate to my time."

The third prophecy is as follows, translated from portuguese, available online (just google it people) After the two parts which I have already explained, at the left of Our Lady and a little above, we saw an Angel with a flaming sword in his left hand; flashing, it gave out flames that looked as though they would set the world on fire; but they died out in contact with the splendor that Our Lady radiated towards him from her right hand: pointing to the earth with his right hand, the Angel cried out in a loud voice: 'Penance, Penance, Penance!'. And we saw in an immense light that is God: 'something similar to how people appear in a mirror when they pass in front of it' a Bishop dressed in White 'we had the impression that it was the Holy Father'. Other Bishops, Priests, men and women Religious going up a steep mountain, at the top of which there was a big Cross of rough-hewn trunks as of a cork-tree with the bark; before reaching there the Holy Father passed through a big city half in ruins and half trembling with halting step, afflicted with pain and sorrow, he prayed for the souls of the corpses he met on his way; having reached the top of the mountain, on his knees at the foot of the big Cross he was killed by a group of soldiers who fired bullets and arrows at him, and in the same way there died one after another the other Bishops, Priests, men and women Religious, and various lay people of different ranks and positions. Beneath the two arms of the Cross there were two Angels each with a crystal aspersorium in his hand, in which they gathered up the blood of the Martyrs and with it sprinkled the souls that were making their way to God".

This according to Pope John Paul II was his assassination attempt 19 years earlier (as the Pope stated in May 13th 2000) Ok this one is a stretch at best, he didn't die, the city was not in ruins he was not gunned down by Soliders with Bullets and arrows.

So which how are we to take this seriously? So far most of it is told after the facts, or did not happen, or stated to be fulfilled but really hasn't been fulfilled. How can one say that the Fatima prophecies occured. As for the rest of what happened at Fatima, i cannot say, i was not there, is there documented proof? not really new paper clippings about what supposedly occurred, no scientific proof of mud and then drying up instantly, no medical documents of the supposedly sick and then of course healed. Come on really, lets not try to make Fatima true when it clearly fails at it's own prophecies.  This take a huge huge leap of faith and massive lack in logic and reasoning to say it is true and the prophecies are fulfilled.

That statement comes from ideological bias not observation. You merely assume there are no miracles because you have never seen one. I think that's rather presumptuous on your part. In order to make such an assertion, you would have had to exist during all of human history and been everywhere at once to observe no miracles having never taken place. Why don't you interview the 70 thousand witnesses of the miracle of the Sun? Many of them were atheists and renounced atheism .

These are free online debates with two of the greatest Christian theistic philosophers of modern times: Greg Bahnsen and William Lane Craig. They debate and refute various atheists. They prove atheism to be irrational. I highly recommend atheists listen to these debates. They are classics.

Theist vs Atheist Debates

The Flop of the Century

The greatest alleged miracle of the twentieth century has to be the miracle of the sun at Fatima in 1917. Some books would have you think that it had no less than 70,000 witnesses (eg. Fatima Revealed and Discarded, page 168). The fussing done about this miracle is a mystery considering that the occultist Vintras prophesied that visions would take place at Tilly-Sur-Seulles in Calvados France and when the prophecy was fulfilled in 1896 many people had aerial visions of Mary and there were miracles in which bizarre contortions of the bodies of visionaries took place. Contortions like that are generally regarded as from Satan no matter how orthodox the doctrine they seem to defend is for they are so pointless and showy. The miracle of the sun was frequently reported at Bayside New York which was not only the focus of apparitions without credibility for years but which was condemned by the Church and which made mincemeat of the authority of the pope. When people imagine the miracle happening when there is no miracle or when the miracle is heretical and therefore from Satan there is no point in taking any implication of such miracles seriously. In other words, you don’t consider becoming a Catholic if you see the sun spinning and turning different colours. It wouldn’t do any harm to consider seeing a therapist or a psychiatrist or your optician.

In July, the Lady told Lucia who wanted her to do a big miracle so that everybody would believe that she would perform the miracle she wanted in October “so that everyone will believe your story”. But everyone did not believe when it happened. Many decided to wait until the Church decided. The Virgin obviously did not want an ecclesiastical investigation! The real Virgin Mary would have. Not everybody even seen the miracle of the sun though the Lady promised they would all see it.

The Lady appeared to the three children in Valinhos the following month. She told them that because of the scepticism of the unbelievers the miracle of October would be less dramatic and great. So she had changed her mind about doing an extremely striking super-miracle and set her Immaculate Heart on a less spectacular one. The less wonderful the miracle is the more reason people have to disbelieve it and yet she said she want the miracle done to make people believe. An all-knowing God does not change his mind for he knows all things and you only change your mind when you realise you have made a mistake. The Virgin broke her promise.

The atmosphere was right for many to say that the solar miracle had happened because even before it people were reporting strange things. Some thought the sky had gone dark in September though Canon Formigao who was the first to support Fatima saw nothing untoward at all (page 51, What Happened at Fatima?).

In October, a crowd of 70,000 had gathered. At the end of the visions, the Lady who had identified herself as the Lady of the Rosary, let the children see Jesus and Joseph and herself in the sun. Lucia shouted for the crowd to look at it and then many of them but not all (page 77, The Evidence for Visions of the Virgin Mary) saw the sun spinning or changing colour or both but the accounts do not agree (ibid 78, 80). Now, for the Lady to want the crowd to look at the sun which is very dangerous over visions that might have been hoaxes shows that she was not the Virgin Mary but something else – perhaps something equivalent to a fairy-tale playmate. Despite all the photographers who were present there are no photos of the changes in the sky or any physical evidence. The best the defender can do is produce photos of eclipses in far away lands! (page 78, The Evidence for Visions of the Virgin Mary). When a miracle is given for unbelievers one would expect the Virgin to have done a better job of seeing to it being authenticated.

It seems that a crowd that could have been between 50,000 and 70,000 were at the Cova and were drenched to the skin (The Thunder of Justice, page 137). It seems they were up to their ankles in mud. But when the crowd endured so much discomfort which would only have brought them ridicule if nothing happened it is clear that they were desperate to convince themselves or their companions that they saw something. At that stage there was no miraculous or scientific proof that the children were telling the truth. Most of the people then had no regard for evidence and would lie or convince themselves they saw something when they saw nothing.

Many people would have said they saw something though they did not. The Virgin had said the miracle was for unbelievers and those who saw nothing might have been accused of being so stubborn in unbelief that doing a miracle to convince them would not work.

Also anybody who defended the miracle of the sun was helping to undermine the brutal atheistic government and would have felt that it was their duty to lie for Portugal and the Church. It was popularly believed that if the miracle failed to happen the children would be lynched (page 54, What Happened at Fatima?) so there was pressure on people to claim that they saw something.

Many of the people had umbrellas up. Lucia had told them to put down their brollies before the apparition though it was raining (page 78, The Evidence for Visions of the Virgin Mary) which shows that she was planning an illusion and had touching concern for the old people who could have caught pneumonia. The brollies might have blocked their vision of the sky. It is obvious that not many would have listened to her or even heard her but many would have noticed people taking brollies down and then they would have followed suit. Mc Clure thinks the crowd did not expect to see the sun spinning but they all knew a miracle was promised. Since the crowd was so large and it was hard to see the apparition site they would have realised that any sign would have to take place in the sky and that most obvious orb in the sky, the sun. The ban on using umbrellas alone would have suggested that. But people were seeing strange things in the sun months before the miracle of the sun (page 76, Fatima In Lucia’s own words). The role of suggestion and emotionalism and imagination in the miracle cannot be underestimated. Lucia was able to trigger many of the people in their highly charged emotional state to imagine seeing the sun spin.

The people thought their clothes dried miraculously. They must not have realised that they had not been wet or not noticed that they had dried out which shows what kind of mental state many of them were in. but even today, people claim that Lourdes water dries on their bare skin instantly when they emerge from the baths at Lourdes. That is not true! Skin is waterproof and can dry and drip dry fast anyway.

The Virgin had vowed at Valinhos to convince all that her apparitions were true and from God by performing a great miracle (The Thunder of Justice, page 137). But all in the Cova did not see the miracle of the sun so she lied. The Church lies that the 70,000 did see the miracle (page 54, What Happened at Fatima?) but then we are told that no two people seem to have seen the same thing (page 55, What Happened at Fatima?). “It is clear that only a proportion of the crowd, probably less than half, actually witnessed the miracle. There is some evidence to the effect that only those who were standing in a broad band across the centre of the Cova saw the vision; but the truth of this is now impossible to establish” (page 78, The Evidence for Visions of the Virgin Mary). The Cova was a natural amphitheatre which may mean that the event was a natural illusion caused by the way the sun’s rays were focused by the landscape. This would explain the broad band. The children might have seen it before when they were looking after sheep and planned to have the crowd there that day to see it. Remember Lucia did not roar at the people to look at the sun until she saw the “miracle”.

In a Fortean Picture Library photo in The Book of Miracles some of the people are not looking up at the solar miracle evidently because they have seen nothing and all of the faces looking up are not amazed. There are no open mouths or hands to the mouth. There is nobody showing any sign of fear. This picture tells a lot of the real truth about the solar miracle. Lucia herself did not see the miracle (page 54, What Happened at Fatima?). So the only one who could prove that the Virgin was appearing did not see the super-miracle. Again, the lady does not care about proving the apparition authentic.

Fr Manuel Pereira da Silva wrote that the sun seemed to have come down to the height of the clouds and began to whirl. The people looked yellow. But if you look up at the sun and pretend you don’t know how high it is it looks as if it is as high as the clouds. And looking at the sun would make it seem to whirl especially when it is a scary thing to look at for we all know what harm it can do to your eyes. The people looked jaundiced because you cannot see colours right if you have just been looking at an excessively bright light.

An account in a newspaper, Ordem, mentioned the sun changing colours and whirling. That can be explained by looking at something too bright for you. It would do strange things to the eyes. The heat mentioned at the time of the miracle was caused by excitement.

Dr Almeida Garret who witnessed the miracle said that did not agree with the people who said the sun turned a dull silver. He remarked how the sun could be looked at without pain but sometimes that can be done. It is easy when you are excited and anxious to see the paranormal before your very eyes.

Steuart Campbell found that a cloud of stratospheric dust could explain the miracle and change the image of the sun and make it easy to look at (The Miracle of the Sun at Fatima, Journal of Meteorology, UK, Vol 14, no. 142, October, 1989). The sun could still have been strongly bright depending on where one was standing that day meaning that different people could have seen different things. There is no way of proving that Lucia shouted that the crowd must look at the sun before anything happened. Only a few at the front would have heard her and they might not have seen what Lucia and some of the rest were seeing in the sky for their own imagination and memory would colour their perception of what they thought they were seeing. And you know the way it is with eyewitness reports at occasions like that. Some would misremember her saying to look at the sky before anything happened.

The people at the Cova knew that the children stared into space with few blinks to see their vision which was the traditional practice. When two or more people stare at a strong light source they will be subjected to illusions and different colours and the light changing shape and seeming to come towards them or go away from them. Try it and see. You can make a room seem to fill up with light and colour and things seem to move simply by staring fixedly at the one spot. Many of the people in the crowd wanted to see a vision and they would have stared deliberately and perhaps in eagerness to see something and the illusion started.

Garret said that the clouds seemed to pass behind the sun. But then the miracle of the sun was deceptive for there is no evidence that the sun moved that day except in the eyes of the people. Science can prove that it did not move. Would God do such a dishonest miracle? When the best ever miracle implies that God is a trickster the rest can’t be reliable at all. Some of the people thought the sun was coming at them which scared them witless and could have prevented them from thinking straight. If there had been no miracle they would have imagined there had been. If a layer of clouds obscures the sun the sun can look pearly. Clouds look pearly. The light could be bright enough to make it look like the clouds are moving behind it and not in front. People do not look at the sun so don’t be surprised if these explanations seem too simple to be true.

The solar miracle is dubious because it happened for the sake of the message of Fatima. And the message in one word is reparation, reparation for the sins and unbelievers of the world. This is a message of evil and perversion. If Jesus paid for our sins then there is no need for reparation and he cannot ask for it for it is a sacrifice for us because there are plenty of sacrifices we could be making. The Devil would not do such a miracle nor would a God so the miracle can only be false. The evidence against it is strongest.

The Catholic Church says divine miracles have mostly good fruits. Fatima started the spinning sun trend in religious fanaticism and it has carried on – especially in Medjugorje – and has left many blind or with bad sight or convinced of the truth of silly apparitions since. Plus some who thought at the time of Fatima that the sun was going to fall on top of them were evidently nearly driven to insanity and there could have been a stampede in which people had died for the normal instinct when you see that is to run away. There was no stampede which is evidence that there was no sun seen falling down to earth though some said there was (www.geocities.com/fatimaforagnostics/FAT.12.NEWSPAPER.2.htm). The Christian religion says we must love God totally and our neighbour as ourselves meaning that it is best for all people to serve God alone and to do it by helping others and ourselves not for our sake but for his. This is so unnatural that few do it and so what is the point in Mary’s miracle for its attraction was the display of power and its strangeness. People like to feel that there is a God of power to look after them which is what they want to run after miracles for. But that is quite contrary to the Christian religion which wants them to run after God and nothing else.

When most people wreak havoc over religion though they do not know if it is right or wrong why trust them when they cry, “Miracle”?

Let us finish with an important line in Mc Clure’s wonderful book, The Evidence for Visions of the Virgin Mary, “There are surprisingly few convincing accounts of the solar event at Fatima” (page 80). Yet this miracle is the reason for believing in Fatima and it is a weak one.

This is silly that such an absurd story is treated by some as fact.

This is quite far from any kind of supernatural event.

 Jacob, where are atheists being persecuted? Christians are killed and incarcereated falsely everyday where it is illegal in the world or because they say something offense against homosexuals from the pulpit.

Vastet, you strike me as a hard boiled atheist. Meaning, you utterly reject everything purporting to be supernatural even before you examine it. This means your mind is made up. Your arguments are NOT I repeat NOT based on observation or evidence, but on philosophical presuppositions, biases and a pre-commitment to naturalism.  There are so many miracles and things that defy normal explanation all over the world its not even funny. Just because your own circle of personal experience has never experienced these things, does not disprove in anyway that they occur. I myself have even seen miracles. I know they exist because I've seen them and nothing you can ever say could change that. Read about Saint Padre Pio. His miracles are well documented. One of his well documented healings was that a girl went to him to be healed of her blindness. She was born blind and without pupils. As they drove into the driveway of the monastery he was located, before she even saw him, she instantly received sight. Keep in mind, she has no pupils. It is scientifically impossible to see without pupils! Her name is Gemma di Giorgi. She is still alive. Many doctors have examined her and affirmed the fact that it is impossible to see without pupils and that this is a miracle. (see Bruno,  Roads to Padre Peo, p.115).

He healed many people. He was totally clairvoyant -- he would know your name and almost everything about you before you spoke to him -- he was seen in the air, he bi-located. He had the stigmata for 40-50 years.

Saint John Maximovitvh (the wonderworker) is another recent example. He also had similar gifts. He's incorrupt in San Francisco, and the Russian Orthodox Church does not embalm people. He's been incorrupt for 31 years, and many miracles happen.

Listen to these free online audio debates (Theist vs Atheist). My heroes Greg Bahnsen and William Craig are presented.

Theist vs Atheist Debates (God and Resurrection of Christ)

http://www.apollos.ws/philosophy-of-religion-audio-d/

Various Lectures by Christian scholars on God, Jesus, miracles, the Bible, etc.

http://www.apollos.ws/philosophy-of-religion-audio-l/#H

FATIMA

Yes, there has been written anti-Fatima propaganda. Of course there will always be skeptics. People write books and articles everyday.  Alot of their arguments are just lies or are based on inadequate information.

Remember, the people were not expecting a miracle of the Sun. They were expecting only a miracle. The fact that they all witnessed the miracle of the Sun, precludes any possible notion that the event was hallucinatory.  There were peraps one or two people who didn't see anything. But that was because they didn't deserve to. God rewards those who have faith or will have faith. As far as I know, all the atheists who witnessed this event converted to Catholicism.

 Vastet, there are serious problems in your arguments. I can't believe you don't see them. First, my definition of God is the Christian theistic definition. Second, it is erroneous on your part to assume that just because you haven't found the evidence of the miracles I reported, that this automatically proves there is no evidence. What kind of miracle are you looking for? I listed well documented miracles. You can go and see them for yourself. That's the best I can do. You said there is no proof that St. John Maximovitch is incorrupt? I'm terribly sorry to disappoint you but you can go see for yourself. He is located at the Joy of All Who Sorrow Russian Orthodox Cathedral on Geary Blvd in San Francisco. As for his miracles and healings, I can give you first hand primary source proof ---the people who knew him. What is your proof that John wasn't clairvoyant? You accused me of lying and yet you never even heard of him untill I mentioned him! He was known to be a saint even before he died. His incorrupt relics only proved what everyone knew. The same applies to Padre Pio. It amazes me that just because you couldn't find proof in 30 minutes you draw the conclusion that what I said was false.  As for deludedgod and the other person you mentioned, they don't listen or are incapable of learning. I don't waste my time with people like that. Remember, atheism cannot prove God does not exist. Therefore logically, atheists must be opened to the possibility of His existance and the miraculous. You act as if you knew He didn't exist. Atheism has never claimed that they know for a fact God does not exist. Atheism is a lack of belief, and as I said, it logically follows that in the atheist worldview they cannot disprove God. Therefore, miracles are possible. Only if you can disprove God would miracles be impossible, and no one has ever done that.

You really need to listen to those debates I gave the link to.

 Vastet, you are not thinking rationally. You asked me for evidence for the supernatural and I gave it to you. I even supplied you with the address lol. I find it fascinating that you assert that there are no miracles, then turn around explaining that you don't even know what incorruption is! Let me refresh your memory. An incorrupt saint is a person who has never decomposed. This goes against natural law. Therefore, it is by definition a miracle. Got it? And the Church has hundreds of them.  Some of them are centuries old. Read "The Incorruptibles," by Cruz. And it just so happens that these incorrupt saints were miracle workers prior to their deaths.

The proof I offer you is the very fact that THEY ARE INCORRUPT.

The greatest proof that they are incorrupt is the fact that they are!

You don't have to take my word for it. YOU can go and see them for yourself.

YOU can bring your favorite scientist with you.

I am terribly sorry to disappoint you but your naturalistic worldview has crumbled to dust!

We have evidence of miracles. I have given the sources, books and even locations. You're just to stubborn to investigate because you rule it our prior to investigation. That is not how science is supposed to proceed. Science is supposed to be about investigation. You refuse to investigate because you are just too biased and stubborn in your pre-commitment to naturalism.

And you are even violating atheistic philosophy! Atheism does not claim to prove God does not exist. Atheism claims NO BELIEF. Since atheism cannot disprove God's existance (they cannot prove a universal negative), then logically miracles are possible! ONLY AFTER the atheist has disproven the existance of God (which they cannot do) would they be qualified to assert that miracles can't happen. But you take the position miracles can't happen even before you have disproven God's existance! Your problem is that you are opperating under the premise that you have disproven God, which you haven't and cannot do.

As for William Lane Craig, it is very clear that you have never listened to one of his debates. You just have a penchent for dismissing things prior to examination. In otherwords, your mind is closed. You want to believe the world is flat and that nothing exists but matter. But then how do atheists account for the existance of universal abstract and invariant entities? They can't. Listen to Bahnsen and Craig.

As for your statement that matter cannot be created, this only proves that you have never heard Craig. Scientists and astrophysicists have universally rejected that idea. Not Christian scientists, ALL scientists including Steven Hawkings. You just don't know what you are talking about.

Index of Articles on God's Existance

http://www.leaderu.com/offices/billcraig/menus/existence.html

A fascinating paragraph.

Either:

a) You believe -- like all human beings who have more cognitive reasoning skills than a houseplant -- that people who call themselves witches don't actually have the ability to cast spells, make curses, summon demons, talk to spirits, or anything like that, in which case you know that the Salem Witch Trials were an instance of mass hysteria and not based on any actual evidence of witchcraft, and thus you would understand the analogy between the witch trials and the events at Fatima.

or

b) You believe that people who call themselves witches are actually capable of performing the supernatural feats of magic that they claim to be able to perform, which not only means you are an idiot but which also means that you have made the rather curious admission that, at least in your mind, there exists a religion besides Christianity which is actually true.

Which is it?

This would have been a real miracle if it had occurred somewhere in the world where people didn't already believe in magical flying virgins.