brace yourselves and be brave... this one is about church
Offline church is an unusually thing for me. i don't have a certain church that i go to but rather visit a variety of them. most of them assume that i am lost. although i don't agree with some of the things religion teaches i have always learned something from a sermon.
during the services i pray contentiously for God to enter into the message. as a pastor it is easy to get discouraged and i find that a smile and nod from an actively viewing participant does wonders. in part i go to church for their own good and not my own.
a lot of messages i hear actually deal with issues that i am currently going through. i am not talking about a generic idea or something i have to search for but something that completes an idea for me. that is one way i feel God communicating with me. i hope you do realize that i have shown that i can be rational and i would at least like a little bit of consideration that i may be approaching this rational as well. i have already read some of the reasons why you believe this happens and you are free to post them again but it still doesn't change the fact that it is real for me.
i know that preachers are not perfect but i still believe God speaks through most of them. i have many experience with pastors from other beliefs and when i go to a church i usually like to get to know the pastor and have conversation with him. you will see that they are human like you and me, if they are approached with respect they will give it in return.
so i came here and questioned my beliefs but are you able to do the same? you want to try a funny experiment, try going to a church. you would do good to learn about the enemy so to speak. i wouldn't suggest going to a hellfire and brimestone church but that would be better than a catholic church.
go on a wednesday night, most churches don't expect new people to pop in them, be nice and friendly. tell them what you feel comfortable with, stare at the pastor with a constant smile pasted on your face. if anything show up late and leave when they all stand to do the ending prayer so you won't be confronted with ARE YOU SAVED!!!
i think you might find that church isn't as bad as you think but i understand if you too scared to go. LOL, i also understand there are some bad churches out there so i do apologize if it is as bad as you think BUT i also recommend that you try more than one.
for anyone who is a daring individual and brave enough to try my challenge i would love to read your replies, good or bad. i would say that don't go in there with preconceived notions, so if it is just neutral please say so.
May God bless us and give us the words to express our ideas in a creative and civil manner, while providing us an ear that we may truly hear each other, and a voice to clearly project our thoughts.
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If my beliefs damage society, then society would do well to provide me with incentive to change my beliefs.
I'm not sure that I like you very much. You remind me too much of the fundies.
that is your right to think so.
i never said i thought it correct to apply logic to all areas of my life. are you perfect? are you really applying logic equally to all areas of your life?
did i say that relating bad experience you had at church made you irrational? i have a hard enough time already trying to defend what i do believe without you putting words into my mouth.
too bad, you already have it and in more areas that i care to discuss.
i would disagree, but it is your right to feel that way.
why do you assume that made me uncomfortable? what exactly did i project on to you, i was only stating my opinion, you seem to be the only one trying to shove something down another's throat.
i said that that was my impression. i respect your experiences. i think perhaps you bring a lot of your own in reading my posts. i think that you also are projecting your thoughts and feelings onto me. i think we attack other people on the problems that we have ourselves. i have not said anything but my opinion and asked for yours. quotes aren't even necessary, you don't have to rely on me to create your responses.
i did not even feel like i was being attacked nor do i think i acted as if i was. are you sure you are reading what i wrote or do you only focus on what you want to try and create some kind of point.
i have never said that religious people have not did bad things and if you understood what i have responded then you would've known that. witty retorts does not compensate for common sense. please use a little bit of self restraint if you want to continue an intelligent conversation with me.
May God bless us and give us the words to express our ideas in a creative and civil manner, while providing us an ear that we may truly hear each other, and a voice to clearly project our thoughts.
my opinion of iruka isn't that good either. i think you pin pointed it losingstreak. i finally have proof of the damage that religion has done.
i mean could you imagine if iruka was a theist? she would have been toated by the people on here.
May God bless us and give us the words to express our ideas in a creative and civil manner, while providing us an ear that we may truly hear each other, and a voice to clearly project our thoughts.
I'm really intrigued by watching what's happened here.
Iruka has been very open and honest about some very bad things that happened to her, and has admitted freely that she still has anger issues related to these events.
Furthermore, as far as I can see, she hasn't made any logical claims in this thread, so the assessment that she'd not hold up in a debate seems unfounded.
She's spoken honestly about how she feels about Losingstreak's philosophy. (And Sapphen, let's not pretend that we all haven't been very honest about what and who we like and don't like...)
I wonder why the person who's been hurt the worst in this conversation is the one who's being told that there's something wrong with her, and that she is not a nice person.
Sapphen, if religion has made her angry, why are you blaming her and not religion?
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
Here I go again, answering questions which were not posed toward me.
I believe in emotional responsibility. If I become angry at someone or something, it is not because that someone or something made me angry, it is because I allowed myself to become angry. My anger is my own issue, not the issue of someone else. The fact of the matter is, if she still can't not be angry at religion, then religion still has her in its grasp. She hasn't really escaped from anything.
i don't mean to blame her and not religion. my peeve with her is i feel like she is trying to put words into my mouth. she did not just tell her side of the story but tried to "scarecrow" my opinions.
if this was a simple exchange of ideas, you know that i would be more than willing to give my opinion and respect on the matter. i did react very defensively, i am human and subject to error. i guess i should have just acknowledged her thoughts instead of attacking back but i felt she was probing for some kind of response.
then in my last words i would like to apologize to Iruka. i think we both could have learned a little bit about tact in this post.
May God bless us and give us the words to express our ideas in a creative and civil manner, while providing us an ear that we may truly hear each other, and a voice to clearly project our thoughts.
I'm mostly baffled.
I don't think I made any ad hominem attacks. I did attack religion and churches. I also made it clear that my stories were anecdotal and that as such, could not be extrapolated to equal "all churches" or "all preachers." I do, however, take issue with an institution that teaches its adherents to believe in something illogical and unprovable. I also took issue with the position of intellectual dishonesty openly advocated by LosingStreak. I did not attack him, but a position he is holding against all evidence.
In turn, I was attacked personally.
Sorry I wasn't in a religion-coddling mood tonight. I don't think I'll be in a religion-coddling mood tomorrow night either. Let's see...Monday. No, Monday isn't looking too good, either. Perhaps you'd like to try for Tuesday?
No, I was not arguing from logic. I was merely relating anecdotal stories to show that churches can, at time, be dangerous.
Because it's not psychologically possible for him to blame religion, so he must blame me.
As for my "anger," most of it was spent a long time ago. I've used the lessons I've learned. What the theists are perceiving as anger tonight is exhaustion plus the fact I don't feel like pussy-footing around religion. I'm being 100% honest about my feelings concerning religion. My guess is weak faith reacts badly to that.
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Nothing happens in a vacuum. However, I have already dealt with so-called "anger" issues. I believe your perceptions are skewed because I called you on clinging to belief without evidence. My perception is that you got angry and projected that anger onto me.
Whatever. I really don't care whether or not you or sapphen like me. This is not a popularity contest.
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I am definitely not interested in seeing this escalate, but I don't get the impression it's going to.
I don't see any rules violations. To the best of my knowledge, there's nothing in the rules that says you can't state the fact that you do or don't like someone.
I jumped in because I thought it would be illustrative to point out that the religious participants in the conversation were perpetuating the same kind of emotional abuse/manipulation that caused you to leave in the first place, not because I thought anyone was breaking any rules.
I'm honestly not interested in addressing Losingstreak's reply to you because he's already said in as many words that he doesn't care if he's wrong or right, so there's no point.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
Hamby, before I saw this post, I'd already edited out that part of my reply. I felt I was attacked personally, which could be interpreted as violating the "no antagonization" rule. Or not.
In fact, if you'd like to simply delete the last two posts, it's fine with me.
[On edit: It seems like my decision on whether to delete or include something about a rules violation wasn't quick enough. I will ask all involved to please disregard this part of my post, which I subsequently deleted: "I do, however, think you and sapphen may have broken rules regarding conduct on this forum. That will be for other mods to decide." Please, carry on. It was not my place to make such an assertion. ]
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To which I've already responded. Of course, you chose to ignore that in favor of jumping on the supposed "personal attack" that I made. I never said that any of your arguments were bad, or used my dislike of you as a reason for dismissing them. If you don't care to pussy-foot around religion, then why should I care to pussy-foot around your irritating writing style? You've yet to give any reason as to why I should care at all about my "intellectual dishonesty."
I wasn't the one who originally implied that you were angry. I was merely responding to Hamby's observation. If his observation that you were angry was incorrect, then it would follow that my thoughts on his observation would also be wrong, since they were based on his observation. As for me having my perceptions skewed, you seem to forget that I've already clearly stated that I don't care about evidence. At all. You could have called me on the fact that I breathe air and gotten more of a reaction, to be frank.
No, but it is often less difficult to effectively communicate with someone (especially such an irrational person as myself) when he or she doesn't find you to be appealing, personality-wise.
Only time will tell, it would seem.
I retracted this quote from my post, so I would prefer to continue the conversation as if I had never written it. Note to self: Think before hitting "Post comment."
Carry on.
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It was my mistake. I took a long time responding, and neglected to check back in on the topic to see what further had been added to the discussion.
No, it was my mistake. I waffled on whether to include it or delete it. There were about four different versions of that post. I shouldn't have included it in the first place.
Again, I will ask all involved to please disregard this part of my post, which I subsequently deleted: "I do, however, think you and sapphen may have broken rules regarding conduct on this forum. That will be for other mods to decide." Please, carry on. It was not my place to make such an assertion.
Thank you.
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Ok, Folks.
Final word on this:
No rules violations, no official warnings.
I will be keeping an eye open to make sure that this ends here, though. I think everyone knows where everyone else stands, and it doesn't need to be addressed anymore. If there's going to be any more discussion, it will be about someone's arguments, not their temperament or writing style.
Capiche?
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
As you wish. In any case, I must get some sleep, as I have to work tomorrow and it is past one in the morning.
Actually, I went to church recently.
I wrote this on the first in another part of the forum:
The service was broadcast on local TV. I hope no one taped my performance.
I enjoy performing, but watching it afterward can be uncomfortable. It's like, "Ewps...forward, Laura! Think forward! Ouch, that could have been more resonant. Yuck! What a lousy "ah" vowel. What's with that head shake? What are you doing with your hands, Laura? WTF was that? Your eyes looked like they were going to shoot across the room just then. Calm, Laura. Geez! It's not like you haven't done this five hundred times."
BTW, my opinion is that the UU's shouldn't get involved in politics unless they pay taxes, just like the fundy churches.
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Iruka, my worst performance ever, I was playing one of Liszt's transcendental etudes at a "warmup concert" for the church I was attending. I was doing a competition the next weekend. Anyway, I butchered it. Badly. Missed notes all over the place, tempo problems, minor memory glitches... terrible.
And I got a standing ovation.
I know you know this, but it's really good that we are always our own worst critics.
My opinion is that all churches should pay taxes, regardless, so the question ought to be moot.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
As I was christian once, I have been to plenty of churches... but I have taken this challenge before, and this is the result: my reviews (1-3) are about halfway down the page.
http://www.clemsontalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=3287&highlight=newspring
Question: did you mention the 'preconcieved notions' as a way of delegitamizing our negative experiences right off the bat, and mentioning our 'fear' as a way of dismissing unwillingness in much the same way?