Atheists have an interesting imagination
Offline Atheists have a most intriguing imagination when it comes to their creativeness in coming up with new "techniques" to disprove God. In all, that is the very predetermined conclusion most make. Their mind has already being shut to the concept of an Almighty God, even if under the self delusion they are open minded.
Dawkins may not even exist, applying the same "logical" principles he applies to God.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QERyh9YYEis
Archaelogical evidence affirming the Bible:
http://wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=33168
(Detailing finds made by Karolinska's (same guys who hand out the Nobel Prizes) expedition to the Red Sea.)
A video about the same finds:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2998846736678959139
Either way, even if God does not exist (contrary to archaelogical, scientific and sociological evidence) , it's not my loss, as all would be pointless. Yet if God does exist, and you reject him, woe unto the atheist.
Since I live in Sweden, I've heard most of the arguments toyed around with by atheists (notably at lectures held at Lund University). They just don't bite. And so-far, despite being surrounded by atheists everywhere I look (literally, more atheists than Christians), I've yet to be accused in RL as being a blind believer. I'm quite openheared, although very critical.
"I would rather live my life as if there is a God and die to find out there isn't, than live my life as if there isn't and die to find out there is." -Albert Camus
You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! -
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Ahem. Pascal's Wager. Been there, done that.
I openly reject god based on the evidence I have been presented. If there is a god then I imagine he would bring forth some kind of definitive proof. I've yet to see any, therefore, the logical conclusion would be that there is no god.
If god takes life he's an indian giver
[MOD EDIT - DOUBLE POST]
People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.
You deal any other drugs besides faith?
Your mind will answer most questions if you learn to relax and wait for the answer. - William S. Burroughs
Dawkins is a man not a supernatural deity...
WorldNetDaily? yes the same hardcore reporting that brings you such stories as "How homosexuals hoodwinked Supremes" and "Beauty shot: John Edwards 'world's sexiest woman'?"
BTW the story says, "Curiously, no one can account for the precise whereabouts of that eight-spoked wheel today, though Hassan is on videotape stating his conclusion regarding authenticity."
I'm not even going to get into pascal's wager...
The charge of 'closed mindedness' coming from a faith based, dogmatist is a hollow complaint. I can only read this as a projection of your own flaws.
"Hitler burned people like Anne Frank, for that we call him evil.
"God" burns Anne Frank eternally. For that, theists call him 'good.'
What if you die, and don't find out anything? "Finding out" requires an active brain to process the senses, the information, the language and pretty much anything you need to form a thought. Waited all your life for this moment of empty truth... if your brain still worked, I think it'd just regret never living life to its fullest, all the while thinking you'd just save your energy for the "afterlife."
Remember the first bajillion years before you were born? Me neither, death is JUST LIKE THAT. You're lucky enough to have a LIFE on apparently one of the lone specs in the near universe that can support life at all... and you want to live it in self-selected slavery to an imaginary friend on the slim chance that death isn't nothingness forever?
Shame.
I always love pascals wager, but what if, it isn't the christian god in the after life, what if it's an aztec god, a babylonian god, greek god(s), hindu god or one of the millions of gods or deities that man has imagined up over the last 5 or 6 thousand years? We are both fucked then. Then again, it could be just like a blissful sleep, or like the time of Shakespear, personally i have no recollection of it, and i expect death to be the same, just the end of this life. However i will "find" out at my death, oh wait that already happened, clinically dead for 5 minutes....and yeah i don't recall a thing except waking up in the recovery room.
Theists claim to have invisible friends but atheists have the "intriguing imagination"?
It is to laugh.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Wow - Dawkins doesn't exist? We must have some really good hologram technology...
Slimm,
Or you simply neglect any and all evidence presented, resulting in your denial being based on a predetermined belief.
Reading through the replies, this would be rather funny had it not been so tragic. Regardless, you guys are the risk takers, irrational as it may be considering the cost of your being wrong.
I'm rather light hearted about this, because I doubt I'll be convincing any of you with recitals of Creationist and other arguments. God will save whom He wills.
Although in a way it eases me to know you guys are around. Had you not been, then God's word would not be true. (Genesis 6:5 amongst many others -this is not meant as evidence in any way, simply a reference to my position)
Oh and I appreciate the lable "Theist" you gave me. I would've liked it in blue, and it saying Christian instead, but I figure you guys don't bother differentiating between the various faiths. Faith in itself seems evil in your eyes.
Thanks for your replies.
"I would rather live my life as if there is a God and die to find out there isn't, than live my life as if there isn't and die to find out there is." -Albert Camus
You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! -
Look's like you forgot to-be critical while presenting
These quote's are from the provide link
" extreme caution regarding the unsubstantiated claims.
"All kinds of people are finding coral and calling it chariot parts," says Richard Rives, president of Wyatt Archaeological Research in Tennessee. "It's most likely coral covered with coral. ... Opportunists are combining false things with the true things that are found. These people are making it up as they go to be TV stars. "
"cites Ron's discovery of a wheel hub that he brought to the surface in the late 1970s as proof.
Curiously, no one can account for the precise whereabouts of that eight-spoked wheel today, though Hassan is on videotape stating his conclusion regarding authenticity."
As has already been pointed out, you are also a risk taker for not believing in the many, many other gods. The cost of you being wrong is just as great.
Hi Jacomus7
I believe "Faith in itself" is not evil, I believe religious ideology is evil, and I have historical evidence to back up this believe, ? would you like to see it
Nope, not in denial. I'd be more than willing to believe in god if I thought there was one.
See, this whole risk taking thing is complete Pascal's Wager. You really should read up on it a bit. It's rather silly. After all, as others here have mentioned, you are taking a risk as well. What if you god isn't the true god? Maybe you're worshipping the wrong guy.
I'm glad you're rather 'lighthearted' about all this. It only goes to show the arrogance that so many Christians display towards people who aren't Christian. So you're happy that you think we're going to go hell. Good for you. I suppose you're happy that the Muslims and Hindus are going to go to hell too? How kind and loving of you.
It would be too hectic to have a million different tags. There would have to be Baptist, Pentecostal, Catholic, Jewish, Muslim, Jehovah's, etc. You get the point.
I personally don't care what beliefs you hold, nor do I think all theists are 'evil'. I'm more concerned about your beliefs affecting the rights of myself and others.
If god takes life he's an indian giver
Here, I'll go into detail why pascals wager (the idea that you are ok while others are not because of your belief) does not apply to religion.
There is more than one religion. That's about as much detail that's needed. The fact that there are a plethora of religions proves that your wager is just as risky as ours. In fact, we can plead ignorance while you can not. If you are wrong, you worshipped a false idol, effectively damning you to any hell whatever other religion has proposed.
Both probability and Pascals Wager are against you.
Your faith is based on fear and emotion, as you pointed out.
Rational: having its source in or being guided by the intellect (distinguished from experience or emotion); "a rational analysis"
And we're the irrational ones.
Are you still afraid of the boogie man under the bed? He could be there.. I hope you jump out of bed each morning, clear of arms reach. It's obviously the rational thing to do...
Your mind will answer most questions if you learn to relax and wait for the answer. - William S. Burroughs
I have one question, which christian are you?, Catholic? Anglican? pentacostal? Jehova Witness? Christadelphian? baptist? Mormon? Protestant? Lutherian? Evagelist? because depending, well not depending, even if you claim no specific denomentation, according to the rest of the denominations, you are going to hell. Because you are not following the word of god as per their interpretation. So yea you are going to join us in hell apparently, see you there.
(i can also take this with a light heart, because as you can see, your arguement is a silly arguement once you get down to the details of hell and it's specifics)
"I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."--Stephen F. Roberts
Of course, it's not beneficial for archaeology if people pick up random pieces of things and claim it to be something it's not. That's why there were warnings against that, as it works to detract credibility from the argument at hand.
Selective editing obviously left out the fokllowing:
"Moller says it refers specifically to the Gulf of Aqaba, and while he's not formally affiliated with the Wyatts, he agrees with them that a host of other evidence can be found on the Arabian side of the water, including remains of the golden calf, pillars, altars and the even the rock the Bible says Moses split to bring forth water for the Israelites.
Regarding the items found beneath the waters, Moller believes there are remnants not only of chariots and wheels, but also human and animal skeletons."
Sure, Rev_Devilin, I wouldn't mind seeing it.
To believe in other religions, you have to neglect all the evidence both archaeological and otherwise regarding the Truth of the Bible.
To say that you do not wish to have your rights impeded by religion authorizes me to utilize the concept that I cannot tolerate such willful and propogated sin, as it will in the end wreak the Wrath of God upon the entire nation - just like Sodom and Gommorrah.
Also, my faith has not always been strong. Before, I was practically speaking agnostic (never was atheist, thank God), along with the rest of my family. Then through eschatological and Scriptural research was my fervour in faith kindled.
Emotions do, however, seem to abound in your relentless war of words against religion.
Edit:
latincanuck, officially I'm Lutheran. Practically, I'm Calvinist. Very few denominations within Christianity consider other denominations to go to hell, unless they reject a central tenet of Christianity: such as the Deity of Christ.
"I would rather live my life as if there is a God and die to find out there isn't, than live my life as if there isn't and die to find out there is." -Albert Camus
You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! -
Jacomus,
All that your archeological evidence for the Bible (assuming it's not fraudulent) really proves is that the guys who wrote the Bible knew the area in which they lived.
It doesn't do a thing to validate your God.
Spiderman is set in New York City and NYC is a real place - is the Wall-Crawler real?
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
""The wind did not separate the water," says Lennart Moller of the Karolinska Institute in Stockholm. "No person could be in that wind and survive. ... If God has created all the Earth, it's no problem for Him to separate the water for a while.""
"I would rather live my life as if there is a God and die to find out there isn't, than live my life as if there isn't and die to find out there is." -Albert Camus
You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! -
Nice evidence.
Damned fine dodge also. Local color in the Bible doesn't make your God real.
Your appeal to authority doesn't help you either.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Um, what about the archeological evidence found about the Greek gods? You know, statues, altars, etc.
Sin exists only in religion. If you're talking about morals, well, that's a whole other ball game. And morals are subjective. You don't get to tell me what I can and cannot do if I am not hurt another individual. Likewise, I don't get to tell you what you can and cannot do as long as you aren't hurting another individual. So no, you have no authority over me. It's really as simple as that.
We are both bound by the laws of our countries/states/society etc. If you want to be bound by the laws of religion, that's your perogative. However, you have no right to try to bind me by the laws of your religion.
If god takes life he's an indian giver
Pariahjane, I said sin, not morals. As you said, there's a big difference. At least in terms of dialogue between theist and atheist.
Now, this is changing the subject of discussion somewhat, but I am curious.
What made you guys PERSONALLY accept that atheism is the truth?
I'm here to learn, not convince anyone. It's not up to me to decide what others believe, nor is it up to you.
"I would rather live my life as if there is a God and die to find out there isn't, than live my life as if there isn't and die to find out there is." -Albert Camus
You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! -
People don't accept atheism as true, atheism is not being convinced theism is true.
Aside from the complete lack of evidence of God or gods and the ridiculousness of fragmented and multiple organised religions you mean?
Freedom of religious belief is an inalienable right. Stuffing that belief down other people's throats is not.
For today's look into Christian history we have
1 the Roman Emperor Constantine, Christianity & the Bible (it's bloody)
2 the dark ages, the Roman Catholic church, and approximately 50 million dead ( incredibly bloody )
3 the inquisitions in the name of Christ, (lots of torture)
4 witch burnings ( for the love of god )
5 Hitler Christianity and the Jewish question ( Hitler inspired by the Inquisitions )
Please choose from the above, and I'll take you through the history, or if you would like more choice, this is also available
Hitler was Christian, but he used nationalism, anti-communism (Reisgh building(sp?) was blamed on communism for example). To further his goals, not Christianity.
You're suggesting that based on your idea of sin you somehow have a right to authority over me. Correct me if I am mistaken in this.
I don't know that I could say I somehow 'accepted' atheism. I've looked at what was provided to me and feel that the existence of a god doesn't make sense. It is simply too far-fetched and I see no definitive proof.
If god takes life he's an indian giver
Did i say "Hitler inspired by the Inquisitions" ?
It's in his book, would you care to read it ?
He personally held those beliefs, but he needed support. He used nationalism and Nazism as a justification to get people to follow him which was my original point. It was quite obvious Hitler held these anti-semintic beliefs prior.
Saying Hitler was a Christian - which he was - is as valid as saying Stalin was an atheist - which he was.
In both cases it has absolutely nothing to do with their political ideology which was the real driving force behind their actions.
If you've read Mein Kampf this is pretty clear.
Freedom of religious belief is an inalienable right. Stuffing that belief down other people's throats is not.
Rev_Devilin, just thought I might add, it's estimated the Inquisition had around 70million people killed.
So a number of you reject Christianity because you believe Hitler was Christian?
"Pure Christianity— the Christianity of the catacombs— is concerned with translating the Christian doctrine into facts. It leads quite simply to the annihilation of mankind. It is merely whole-hearted Bolshevism, under a tinsel of metaphysics." -Adolf Hitler, 14th December 1941
As for accusing Hitler of being Christian, that is absurd. You should all know that what a politician says and what a politician believes are completely different.
The stickam radio thing or whatever it is reminded me slightly of this. I agree, America was not founded as a Christian nation. The key founders were not Christian. Nor was the concept of the new nation. However leaders did employ a phraseology of pseudo-Christian faith. That was a necessity to gain support, and indeed, without it, there would never have been an American Revolution.
Pariahjane, I never suggested that I have any authority over you. I don't. Whether sin does is completely relative to whether religion is right or wrong. For those which believe it is true, they are obliged to do what they can to combat sin. However, for a Christian, it cannot be said that this should be forced on others, if you bear in mind that the penalties are given in the Old Testament (although the New does affirm a ruling government's right to perform capital punishment), because Christ fulfilled the Law, it is no longer applicable. (If anyone's curious (which I doubt), it can be found in Matthew 5:17-18)
"I would rather live my life as if there is a God and die to find out there isn't, than live my life as if there isn't and die to find out there is." -Albert Camus
You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! -
And all in the name of Christ ? would you have haply joined in being a true believer
quote, Mein Kampf
"It was obvious, however, that this kind of anti-Semitism did not upset
the Jews very much, simply because it had a purely religious foundation.
If the worst came to the worst a few drops of baptismal water would
settle the matter, hereupon the Jew could still carry on his business
safely and at the same time retain his Jewish nationality."
Mein Kampf I have read it, it was a hard read, and somewhat troubling, his ideology certainly had a religious foundation, he saw himself as hard and uncompromising, doing that which was necessary and justified, anti-Semitism was a key factor in his political ambitions, but this was so much more
Jacomus7,
Have you accepted the Invisible Pink Unicorn as your guide through the two score and two Trials of Life?
You haven't? Why not? Can't you see the acts of the Invisible Pink Unicorn all around you?
Oh wait, there's no evidence for her existence.
Hmmm... have you accepted the divinity of Thor? There's lots of stories about Thor. Even ones that reference real places. Or Zeus, or Hera, or Hades, or any number of deities. Do you believe that they exist as well?
If not, you're atheist with regards to all those gods minus one. I just go one step further. No special pleading arguments allowed.
Atheism is a default position. I don't act like unicorns exist because there is no evidence for them, so I'm a-unicornist (and I'd guess you are two.) I can't go around claiming that unicorns exist, provide no evidence, and think people should act like unicorns do exist unless they can prove that they don't. That's not how things work, claims aren't assumed true until prove false.
As soon as someone can present some evidence (no personal experience doesn't count, drop by a psych ward to see why), that evidence will be considered.
-Triften
Is this guy serious? Nothing new here, anyway.
Sorry, I disagree. Mein Kampf is clearly a political text and the religious quotations are peripheral to that message. His hatred of the Jews and his manipulation of the Catholic church is apparent although it is certain his religious exhortations are merely there for expediency.
Freedom of religious belief is an inalienable right. Stuffing that belief down other people's throats is not.
May I ask you, ? what do you believe Hitler's ultimate ambition was, ie Hitler's vision of the world if his ideas came to fruition
What do you think he's ambition was Rev?
There's also this funny little quote...
"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow my self to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice… And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows . For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people." –Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)
Which comes from this essay. http://www.evilbible.com/hitler_was_christian.htm
You have to come up with better BS than that if you want it to pass here.
Why am I an atheist?
My path to atheism began from Christianity. I read the bible - because of this I lost faith in christianity - became a deist. Then I studied various alternative religions - then studied philosophy - then quantum physics - and accepted that there is no defnitive reason for there to be a god at all.
Because the universe is logically explainable without a god - and because there is no evidence whatsoever of the existence of any god - i am an atheist.
"Or you simply neglect any and all evidence presented, resulting in your denial being based on a predetermined belief."
Jacomus7, how are you not doing this with your beliefs????
"Those who think they know don't know. Those that know they don't know, know."
Well if I, hold my little finger to the side of my mouth, while laughing in an insane manner, mmmm the fifth reich if evil Dr.Devilin has his wicked way, more insane laughter
This was not Hitler, Hitler believed he was the benefactor of mankind, Hitler had a vision of the Aryan master race controlling the world thus making the world a better place, his ideas were based upon, races were created distinct by God, purity of species,this was reinforced by a misinterpretation of history, his ideology was also based upon survival of the fittest, he considered this fair and ethical, in maintaining the purity and strength of the race,
This was central to his vision
Although there are lots of other things take into consideration
Sorry for delayed reply, festival's in town so I've been busy.
Alright, this has been mildly interesting (although most of it's been repitition of what I've heard previously).
I figure I'll make this my seventh, and final post.
Thanks to those who tried to explain things to me rathern than those who eagerly started to bash the Bible immediately.
I'm not leaving because I'm offended. As I said, I live in a predominantly atheist/agnostic nation, so I've heard it before. I just don't think I'll gain anything from participating in discussions here.
Other than that,
May God bless you and guide you,
for you are in desperate need of it.
In Christ,
Jacomus7
"I would rather live my life as if there is a God and die to find out there isn't, than live my life as if there isn't and die to find out there is." -Albert Camus
You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! -