It doesn't matter if Craig Hawkins is can use logic. If his initial assumptions are irrational, logic or no, his Christians belief is still irrational.

Anyway, there's much, much more to philosophy than logic.

 By the way, I heard that several real apologists challenged the RSS to debate, but the RRS declined every one of those offers. Instead, the RRS chose to debate Ray Comfort, an ordinary pastor, and actor Kirk Cameron. They chose them because they knew they were light weights in apologetics. I challenge, and infact I dare the RRS to debate Craig Hawkins, William Lane Craig, Gary Habermas, Platinga, J.P. Moreland or Norman Geisler. But they won't. If atheism is so defensible, argue it with the best. If God does not exist, you should be able to prove it to anyone. What is the RRS afraid of? The fact is that these philosphers and scholars would shred the RRS. And the RRS knows it.

Sorry, I meant RRS not RSS in my previous post.

Heh. You give way too much credence to Ph.D.s. I'm sure Dr. Hawkins can school me in the narrow field he did his dissertation in, and in whatever field he does research in if he's a researcher. I'm sure he can take me to task in the field of philosphy. But, getting a Ph.D. doesn't mean you crap gold.

Me calling him would prove nothing. I'm sure he can talk circles around me. I'm not a great speaker, and he would most certainly trounce me in a debate. That doesn't mean he's right and I'm wrong though, I'm just not a verbal debater.

I didn't say that theism is irrational, but Christianity. Many Christians themselves will say that reason is secondary to faith/intuition, i.e. Christianity isn't based on reason. They think reason has its uses, but it is limited. At most, reason informs faith. Hence, by their own admission, Christianity doesn't have a basis in reason. It's irrational. Yes, I know there are some Christians who put reason first, but they tend to be very liberal. I was a Christian who put reason first, and I became an atheist.

[Edit: Clarity]

In other words, you're saying that these guys (who do apologetics for a living) are so desperate for credibility that you feel that they need to take on a bunch of young people who do this (for the moment) as a part time venture?

People in the forum have shredded the works of some of these "luminaries" you mention - do a search. 

You are placing this man on quite a pedestal. If he is as strong in philosophy as you say, I suspect he would object to this characterization on philisophical grounds. Usually, as people atttain higher levels of education the begin to recognize that there is more that they don't know than they do know. And what they do know is subject to a large amount of uncertainty and change. 

Craig Hawkins is the founder and President of Apologetics Information Ministry (A.I.M.). For numerous years professor Hawkins has hosted his own radio call-in, interview, and teaching programs, such as "Open Forum," "CRI Perspective," “AIM for the Truth,” and co-hosted "The Bible Answer Man" broadcast for the Christian Research Institute with the late Dr. Walter Martin. Currently he co-hosts "Living by the Word" which airs in Southern California on Sundays from 10 PM to 12 AM on KKLA, FM 99.5 (and on the Internet at www.kkla.com).

Professor Hawkins specializes in researching and answering questions regarding religious movements and issues, such as cults, the occult, world religions, general and philosophical Christian apologetics, and biblical theology. His studies in the occult include extensive research into satanism, witchcraft, and neopaganism. In addition to published articles, he has written two books: Witchcraft: Exploring the World of Wicca (Baker Books), and Goddess Worship, Witchcraft and Neo-Paganism (Zondervan).

Professor Hawkins has extensive experience and training in apologetics. He received a B.A. in philosophy, graduating with honors, from the University of California Irvine, an M.A. in apologetics from Simon Greenleaf University, and an M.A. in Faith and Culture, graduating summa cum laude, from Trinity International University. He was a Research Consultant for Dr. Walter Martin, has served as the Assistant Dean of the School of Apologetics at Simon Greenleaf University, and as the Director of the Simon Greenleaf Institute of Apologetics at Trinity International University (California Campus). He has appeared on numerous radio and television programs. Professor Hawkins has taught at Biola University, Concordia University, Simon Greenleaf University, with the Talbot Institute of Biblical Studies (TIBS), and other institutions, on apologetics, cults, logic, the occult, theology, worldviews, and related issues. Presently he is an adjunct professor at Trinity Gaduate School (California Campus) and teaches in the Christian Apologetics program at Biola University.

Source: http://www.apologeticsinfo.org/aboutcraig.html

Wow, an M.A. in apologetics. From Simon Greenleaf U, no less. Impressive.

No, of course I'm not being sarcastic. I was being sarcastic just then, though.

A degree in apologetics, no matter where it is from, seems very much like a degree in being brainwashed. Apologetics is the defense of the Christian faith, so its not like one is taught to think and examine and discover, but simply to defend. It requires a special mindset to consider that education.

Enlighten us, please.

 Tell us, in your own words, what makes "Christian theism is the most rational and logical belief system in the world."

evfimy is in the "I've been refuted so bad I need to start insulting their intelligence" stage.

I find it cowardly that after having your posts soundly refuted, that you try to deflect away from your failure by having us call in to some second rate apologist's radio show.

actually christian theism is one of the most laughable belief systems in the world. part of what makes it so is people like you who are so enthralled by it that you've become blind to the hilarity of your own statements of faith. perhaps you should give your bible a more thorough reading, because your comments seem to say that you read the words but completely failed to process them in any meaningful way.

atheists are cowards? yet you're the one who's scared of the guy with little horns and a pitchfork? is calling out atheists to go debate SOMEONE OTHER THAN YOU, and mocking them when they don't play along with your silly game an example of your christian bravery? 

This should be in trollville I think.

For your reference point (helping you avoid the lies from your camp), none of the names referenced above have ever challenged us to a debate, several have been contacted and no response has been received.  If you are so interested in seeing those debates occur have them contact us. 

 It's bad enough I have to deal with libel on many other sites, if you continue to engage in libel here (on my dime), you will no longer be welcome. 

On the show in the past have been:

Matt Slick Masters in Theology www.CARM.org

Reverend Fred Klett Masters from Westminster: http://www.chaim.org/bio.html

President of Liberty Theological Seminary Ergun Caner

2 Hosts from: http://www.thewordfm.com/programGuide.asp

This is what you say to yourself. 

This is what you should be saying to yourself, in the mirror.

I've just eyed through his site. I can't see any "logic" and "arguments". All I can see is him using bible references as a foundation to everything, without bothering to establish that bible is any more true than star trek.

 I know who Hawkins is. I listen to his show every week. The people at Rational Responders wouldn't stand a chance with him. He has a genius level IQ, is a member of Mensa, has taught logic for 13 years, and is a specialist in general and philosophical apologetics. He also has the best memory I have ever seen.  I've never heard any atheist call him. They're all cowards.

I know about logic and epistemology and I have a degree to prove it. I know that Christian theism is not rational or logical. You may now applogise for your error.

The problem with radio shows is that they are a very poor forum for a technical philsophical debate. The person who hosts the show has all the power. It is not moderated for starters. Its a very poor place to have a philsophical debate of the type you propose. Its a good place to have a general debate but when one gets down to some serious philsophy people tend to need to take their time to formulate their arguements mainly so that they can't be misinterpreted or misunderstood. Radio's shows really are not the place to do this.

I think that a more fundamental question can be asked of the christian:  why does your god need any human to defend its existence to begin with?  Why do atheists need to resort to people you hold in high esteem to make logical arguments on your behalf (and god's behalf)?  Oh wait, the bible is the word of god, yeah - that's right...   I guess god's "own words" (the bible) need clarification from humans to convince rational people of the irrational.  Obviously, your god has trouble doing that.

Tell Craig to submit his proof for God's existence to these forums. Using your own logic (rather, lack thereof), if he does not submit the proof then is a coward. I'll be waiting patiently for Craig to prove he is not a coward.

Hmm, how many times have I heard this before? Why would they die for it if they knew it was untrue?

It's not that they knew it was untrue, it's that they simply believed in it sincerely, whether it was true or not.  Believing in a thing does not make it true, and we're obviously capable of citing other instances where people of different faiths died for their beliefs. I am not impressed with this Hawkins guy so far.

 Atheists are just not theists.  That's it, it doesn't say anything about belief on the origins of the universe, but since matter an energy can be neither created nor destroyed, it could be that the components of the universe have always been there and always will be.  Only theory, but a fairly consistant one, and not terribly important anyway.  And who are you talking about what is and isn't "scientifically, logically and metaphysically impossible" given you hold that magic sky man did it all for no reason.  What science goes into the mechanism by which he is meant to have done it?  What logic went into why he is meant to have done it?  You claim understanding on the matter, but when asked stuff like this, the answer is always "It's not for us to understand God"

*snicker*

 Sticking "ology" on the end doesn't make it not retarded.  See also: Scientology, Truthology

You should pick up the Star Wars DVDs, essential viewing for anyone who wants to know who Darth Vader is.  I already know who a lot of far better fictional characters are.

Given that he has already picked a favourite side, I imagine his view somewhat in favour of Christianity.  Shall find time to give it a look though, but I expect most of the "arguments" have been called up here and destroyed many times, not that you guys ever seem to notice.

Mensa actually uses a variety of methods to assess IQ. They accept IQ tests designed for cultural differences, and they accept the results of any official IQ test (you know, the kind administered by a psychologist) taken at any point in your life. I got into Mensa when I was 5 based on my score at that time, and although I dropped out because sitting around in a room of intellectual blowhards stroking our egos wasn't my thing, I could still use that 24 year old score for re-entry. So, it's not all vocabulary, although the ability to use analogies and multisyllabic words does tend to have some correlation to intelligence in the educated, adult population.  

Most of the math questions are word problems and not something like a quadratic equation or geometric proofs. Only a basic knowledge of mathematical processes is generally necessary.

I totally agree. I put very little stock in the "I have an IQ of 10 gazillion" people.

On another point, how is it that these theists are calling atheists cowards and then referring them to someone else? If the theists are not cowards themselves, why don't they debate with the RRS instead?