I don't disagree with anything you've said.  In the interest of avoiding the inevitable "Yeah, Christianity has done bad things, but it's good now" argument, I made that little caveat.

I don't want to steal any theist thunder, though.  I'm really interested in what theists think about this.  How should I choose between these two religions, both of which assure me that I shall burn in a hell that would make me wish for Catholic Medieval treatment if I don't pick correctly.

 I'd like to know which I should have faith in, and how I should decide.

Clearly, I ought to choose one of these as opposed to Buddhism, because if I choose Buddhism, I get two chances to go to hell.  If I choose either Christianity or Islam, I get one chance to go to hell.

 

Hmmm... maybe I could cast chicken bones about. But, if I did that and they indicated Christianity, I'd be in trouble, because then I'd have to get stoned for being a witch.

Unless the bible was prophetically referring to pot. I'm not a fan, but it would be better than dying from having rocks thrown at me while buried in the sand up to my ribcage.

 [Edit:  Incidentally, I heard someone talking about Islamic law once who said that the deal with stoning is that if you can get away before you die, then that's proof that you're innocent, or something like that.  Of course, you're buried up to your ribcage, and people are throwing rocks at your head, so there's not much chance.  The same person said that to spare women the "humiliation" of having a rock hit their breast, they bury them up to their armpits... which kind of decreases the chance of them being innocent.  Do you happen to know if that dude knew what he was talking about?]

ask your parents

You ought to believe neither of them, of course. Never trust a man who claims to have the truth. And never trust the truth, either.

Surely you've been here long enough to avoid this mistake.

Out with the evidence or be done with this claim.

EVIDENCE PLEASE. Give me one example of theistic faith that is based on science. If you cite something that is colloquial faith, I'm never speaking to you again. You know better.

You know better than this, too. Geez. I'm beginning to subscribe to the theory that you did hit your head while you were gone.

There is no positive evidence for the celestial teapot or unicorns. I didn't mention evolution. I'm going on faith, remember?

So far, everything you've said has been an appeal to my REASON. What's worse, your appeals have been fallacious. So, you're failing miserably.

How do I use FAITH to determine which one is right?

You have a talent for stating your own mistakes.

So how do I choose?

Yes, Cpt. Stop being so ethnocentric. Their faith is based on other causes than yours. They might be correct.

Just because they're not you, it doesn't make their belief invalid.

Or does it?

You know this because you have faith? So do they. How do I choose?

And every single American who is a Christian decided to believe independent of the fact that their whole family was Christian, and had been for generations?

This sounds suspiciously like you're trying to convince me that man makes god in his image. That's a very poor reason for me to have faith in your god, don't you think?

Do you even know what you're trying to say to me?

You mean, I should use reason.

Thank you, Captain. I could not have asked for a better response. I'm surprised it came from you because you're usually more sensible than this, but I'll take it.

You have just demonstrated clearly that faith has nothing to do with it, and that we must use logic.

Since there is no evidence that god exists, the LOGICAL conclusion is that he doesn't. I had to laugh out loud when, in the course of your explanation, you did a great job of presenting evidence that man invented god.

On a final note, this last quote I excerpted is possibly the most idiotic thing I've ever heard you say. I'm going to decide the eternal fate of my soul based on whether or not I want to get my knees dirty? That's your argument??

That's all you have to offer? I can choose based on logic so that I can believe based on faith something that doesn't make logical sense.

And your brain boggles that we don't get you. Go figure.

 

 

Ones who choose which religion to follow do not have faith. Instead, they use logic and reasoning (usually based on their level of education on said religions) to come to the conclusion. It is no longer a faith based assessment, but one based on logic and reason. Once ANY other religion is thrown into the mix, faith no longer exists.

This is to say, however, that one does not make a decision based on faith in regards to religion

I guess what I'm saying is this; if one accepts the posibility of other religions then one is not using faith to make an assessment. Once someone has allowed the reality that there is a choice, they are no longer using faith to come to any conclusion and instead are using logic and reason. 

You will see many people fake this false sense of faith by saying such classics such as "My heart tells me it's true" "God is the one and only true God" and lets not forget the timeless hit "You're wrong because the Bible says so."

What they don't realize is that they are using logic and reason, based on their current level of education on the subject at hand. Since they are more versed in the knowledge of Christianity than say Islam, they will always choose Christianity. 

So, I should use reason for everything except faith. How should I know what to use faith for?

Don't you see, Captain?

It's a crock. Faith is useless. You've been lied to.

Absolutely useless!

You've already given the Muslims justification.  They live in a place where life is harsh, and their god is suitably harsh.  It makes reasonable sense in their lives!

So they're just as correct as you, and someone without a "gut feeling" about which one is true is completely stumped on which faith to have faith in.

Except... if it's a gut feeling, it's emotion.  Emotion is not predictably rational.  I might choose wrong.  So I'm back to reason to believe what to believe without reason.

 

 

Faith is important. It's a very shady thing at times, but it's paramount to the whole spirituality thing, yes. (By the way, why do you have such an aversion to discussing the bible in detail? Burnt out, I imagine?)

I don't know if the Muslims are wrong. I'd say they're no more wrong than Christians are. Also, I don't think that, as a whole, Islam is any more violent than Christianity. If you look at the evolution of the two religions, you see striking parallels. Christianity is ~700 years older than Islam. What were Christians doing 700-1000 years ago? They were destroying anything in their path that didn't comply.

We've mellowed a bit, though. Will Islam mellow? If the evolution of Christianity is any indication, then probably yes.

I don't see myself as "right" and them as "wrong". I'm totally not certain that I am correct. Anyone who says this is delusional.

I'm a man of very modest faith, so I don't see myself even making any small commitments, let alone martyrdom. Hara Kiri possibly, but not martyrdom.

I don't know that God is merciful. In fact, God isn't very merciful in my eyes. Nor does he seem just. But what do I know about justice? If God indeed exists, then my concept of justice is irrelevant. Certainty - that's something I've rarely if ever felt. It's more like a reluctant urge, as uneventful and undramatic as that sounds.

I can't speak for everyone, but I'll admit that probably the main reason I'm still drawn to Christianity is because I was born into it. Had I been born in the middle east, then I'd probably be lecturing folks about Allah. If I had been born in the far east, I'd probably be a Buddhist. Every religion needs a figurehead. As human beings, we're drawn to iconic reverence, seemingly innately. Jesus is the channel through which I search for God, meaning, all that heavy shit. Did he literally die and come back from the dead? I have no idea, but it sounds like a bunch of hooey, always did to me. I've yet to come to this understanding in my mind that Jesus literally rose from the dead after 3 days of death and that this somehow is the key to my whole existence. It just sounds silly. Yet I'm more drawn to it every day. I guess it will always boil down to that handful of experiences that I've had that I'll never be able to put into words, and wouldn't even if I could. And if the day indeed comes when God no longer makes sense in my mind, I'll log onto the old forums and say "Dammit, Hamby, you were right. There is no god." Truth is my passion, and if faith one day becomes redundant to my search, then I'm fine with that. I'll accept that.

Just pointing out the claim that Jesus was never lived, died, and resurrected also requires faith. To stem the tide of logical assertions that this could never happen because it defies science, I will simply claim that I have faith in, as John Millbank puts it "Christ The Exception". But because you weren't there, and even if you were you would need faith in your bodies ability to correctly interpret the signals that are entering your brain, claiming we have "faith" seems arbitrary. I suppose your claim would be better put as we have faith in what cannot be seen. Not necessarily what has been refuted, because I don't think it has, and I will look for these refutations, links would be appreciated.

As for why Christianity. Because I find everything else to be inconsistent or inadequate. On that note it should be said that I am investigating other religions, now Hinduisim, Islam next.

    There are logical conclusions in religion due to faith, well as logical as it can get with them, for example, America being the great satan in the eyes of millions of muslims (not all, just a good majority).  The conclusion is due to the fact that America has a non muslim majority, following non muslim laws and does not follow the Koran, or Qu'ran or however you want to call their holy book. The fact is their FAITH in their holy book to be completely true leads them to the logical conclusion that America must be the Great Satan. This isn't due to living in oppressed society, or being poor and the US rich, if the US was rich AND a muslim nation, it would become a shinning example of muslim world, not the great satan.

    Same applies to christianity, and any other religious belief. sure some logical conclusions can come about from it, however it is based on the irrational belief that their faith is correct and true, and all others wrong, at atleast as true as their faith. Many of us are products of our enviorment, which is why there are many many muslims in the middle east since it is predomenantly muslim and the western countries, which are predmenantly christian, have a majority of christians. Many of Asia's countries are buddhist, etc etc etc.

I make no mistake on that front.  I'm pointing out that you're a very smart person, and yet there's a glaring blind spot in your philosophical abilities (presumably caused by the assumptions you must make to be a theist), such that when you argue for faith, you don't even realize that you're arguing against it.

 

Oh, I agree with you on that. As a historical document, and as a linguistic puzzle, it has enough to keep hundreds of scholars busy for decades. No disagreement there.

As I see it, though, if you're using the bible to describe your god, you've already assumed god's existence. The bible cannot prove god, and even supposing that any of the current apologist arguments weren't riddled with logical fallacies, none of them point at the god of the bible, anyway!

I think you've hit the nail on the head. You did the work yourself. So did I. As a matter of fact, reading the bible was what convinced me to leave Christianity. It was so obviously bullshit! I was embarrassed that I had simply repeated what I'd heard others say.

That's the thing, actually. People who are debating here aren't going to admit they're wrong. Too much face to lose.

You do make a solid point, though. Biblical errancy debate is not pointless, but it is a lot of bushes to beat around when you can just go right for the heart of the matter and demonstrate that god doesn't exist without ever cracking a holy book.  At least it is that way for me, but then logic and philosophy are my strong suits.

I suppose my statement was a bit far-reaching. How about this revised version:

I don't argue biblical errancy because it's largely ineffective, and I don't want to devote the thousands of hours of study necessary to do it effectively when I can just avoid the issue entirely by discussing god philosophically and logically.

This kind of blows my mind. Why would you have more reverence for it now? You can see that it's just a bunch of people who were ignorant of science writing slanted versions of history for their own agendas, right?

Or, do you mean academically you have reverence for it as a historical document, in which case the "spiritual lessons" would be a historical curiosity as opposed to divine instructions?

I certainly don't think faith is a valid justification, especailly when you can manipulate your feelings through meditation to get the same effect. You can make yourself feel that anything is true.

The only justifiable reason I see for believing in a personal god is personal experience. Then all you've got to do is prove your sanity

I didn't read this entire thread, but I'll throw in these questions here.

What do you have faith in? What existence of "god" do you refer to? Infinite consciousness? Where's the evidence for this consciousness? The lack of evidence is contradictory to your personal conviction.
Is it even possible to have faith in anything that has no positive evidence? Unless you have evidence, your "faith" is {edit} based on fantasy. It's nothing but a dream.

Your dilemma stems from the fact that you are trying to rationalize your faith. Since you actually have no faith, and you only have rational thought to guide you, this is understandable.

    As an Atheist I would answer the question with faith by pointing out to you that in Islamic religion you get 40 virgins in Heaven. This might be a reason to pick a faith, but at least for me it would take a pheneomonal amount of faith to believe that, even in Heaven, I could hold my load until just the right time to explode.

You did not answer. Can't? Won't? Its a simple question.

No you didn’t.

My point is there is no evidence of "god" in any thread you've started. And here you're stating "the existence of god". What existence? You have not shown any existence of "god".

You're dodging. The lack of evidence is the contradiction to your belief. You haven't exhibited any evidence. Unless you have evidence, your "faith" is fantasy. In order for you to have faith, there needs to be evidence of prior activity, a tract record. I have faith tomorrow will arrive because time has never stopped. I have faith my car will start, because there's nothing wrong with it. I have faith that the letter 'x' will show up on my screen when I push on the key marked 'x' because it always did before.

So I ask again what, in reference to your 'god', what do you have faith in?

 

Again what is there to have faith in? You can't have faith in the toothfairy.

Clearly. You allege a god without definition or evidence.

Exactly. The probability of god is zero so far.

You cannot have faith in nothing.

No, no you didn't understand it. Your posts both here and in the topic shows it. You asked about the data that we could not see. You posted a bubblechamber, which is cleary data defeating the original point. Then you say we cannot see it all the time.

This cleary states you lack of understanding. Particle accelerators are used to generate sub-atomic particles which make up matter, communicate the weak force etc.... I persit that matter is not what it seems and particle physics clearly demostrates this. Ironically the very picture you posted illustrates my point.

 

 

Exactly. The probability of god is zero so far.