PLEASE MAKE
SURE TO
FOLLOW THE
RULES!
RULES
This is the
Kill Em
With
Kindness
Forum!
PLEASE MAKE
SURE TO
FOLLOW THE
RULES!
RULES
This is the
Kill Em
With
Kindness
Forum!
PLEASE MAKE
SURE TO
FOLLOW THE
RULES!
This is the
Kill Em
With
Kindness
Forum!
RULES
PLEASE MAKE
SURE TO
FOLLOW THE
RULES!
This is the
Kill Em
With
Kindness
Forum!
PLEASE MAKE
SURE TO
FOLLOW THE
RULES!
RULES
This is the
Kill Em
With
Kindness
Forum!
PLEASE MAKE
SURE TO
FOLLOW THE
RULES!
I think your friend should watch that video - prayers to jake.
Seriously though, there are two problems with prayer according to religious teaching. The first is the one you brought up - if God does indeed intervene, he's altering the concept of free will and the second is that god is supposedly all-knowing and subsequently everything is "according to his plan" so your prayers won't make a damn bit of difference.
Now before someone says 'well he knew ahead of time if you prayed or not and therefore decided well before you were born where/when he would help... I have a theist friend who argues that God knew ahead of time if you would pray or not - in this case the free will aspect comes up again, big time.
The only thing prayer could possibly do is bolster someone's confidence to do something... ie. "I have God behind me when I do X, Y, Z therefore I feel more secure in doing it." (Sounds like a terrorist, doesn't it?) The other problem with prayer is that when people fail to succeed in whatever X, Y, and/or Z was they then feel like they failed God and are again in a worse postion.
I read a study once where sick people who knew they were being prayed for actually did worse than the control group because of the stress (ie wanting to show that they had done better because of prayer).
Great post! I think you are absolutely correct. You can even look in the Bible to find perfect examples of God robbing people of their free will.
If you ever come to a disagreement about the issue, what you should do is clarify what conditions must be met for free will to exist, agree on it, and then debate from that point. It should then be simple to demonstrate that the necessary conditions for free will are not being met.
I think the biggest question that comes out of this is, "If God can force people to do things, why doesn't he just force them all to believe in him?"
Yes, we know why: Because he doesn't exist.
Your deduction at the end there seems a little silly, like you haven't really thought things through enough.
One could suggest that since God by his very nature is mysterious, we cannot rule out an explanation for his actions, or we are simply judging our creator by the standards he himself created.
I'm not sure you can debate this without asking if free will exists. To which I would make the argument of free will of what exactly? The bible does not say there is not free will but it does state that the will of God is what is important. Sooooo that means that since God speaks to people via the holy spirit (which you could say means there is a spirit to spirit conversation), now its simple to say that there is no such thing as free will of the spirit, only the flesh.
OK ok I won't make it a huge thing but free will in prayer? I wonder, do you understand what it really means from the bible to an individual to "pray?" There is a very specific structure to prayer which is not only at night, only by your bedside, and only by saying the "our father". One very specific theme in prayer examples in the bible is about God's will, not the individual's desires. Even Solomon when he asked God to be the smartest person on the planet did so for his own gain but to express who God was to him through his actions and words (1 Kings 3:7-15).
I think the question of is there free will in prayer isn't asking who's will is trying to be accomplished in the prayer. If you believe in what prayer represents and who it is going to, asking for a new car or to win the lottery are not prayers to glorify God and subsequently if it was not God's will to grant such, that person's will in the prayer are not going to be granted anyway.
What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire