PLEASE MAKE
SURE TO
FOLLOW THE
RULES!
RULES
This is the
Kill Em
With
Kindness
Forum!
PLEASE MAKE
SURE TO
FOLLOW THE
RULES!
RULES
This is the
Kill Em
With
Kindness
Forum!
PLEASE MAKE
SURE TO
FOLLOW THE
RULES!
This is the
Kill Em
With
Kindness
Forum!
RULES
PLEASE MAKE
SURE TO
FOLLOW THE
RULES!
This is the
Kill Em
With
Kindness
Forum!
PLEASE MAKE
SURE TO
FOLLOW THE
RULES!
RULES
This is the
Kill Em
With
Kindness
Forum!
PLEASE MAKE
SURE TO
FOLLOW THE
RULES!
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Wow, these are deep questions. I'll do my best...
I notice you say that you "doubt" he'll take part in a religious wedding. This suggests to me that you haven't talked to him about it. I think you should: you might be surprised. It is entirely possible that he will have no problem taking part. Here's why: atheism is not a conflicting religion. It is the lack of belief in a god. This means that, as far as your boyfriend's atheism is concerned, the wedding ritual has no meaning outside of what it means to you and him and the people present. If your boyfriend was Catholic (for instance) he would have to worry about going to hell because he participated in a blasphemous ceremony and now God is mad at him. As an atheist, he has no such concern. He may very well be happy to go along because of what it means to you. I did when I got married.
Remember, weddings have a social and cultural significance aside from their strictly religious meaning. Your boyfriend may take marriage very seriously and value it very highly even though he doesn't think it comes from God.
One problem could be if he's going to be asked to make some kind of public declaration about God or his allegiance to the church as part of the wedding ceremony. Maybe your bishop will be open to altering the ceremony, or maybe not. This could be a stumbling block and I don't think it would be fair to ask your boyfriend to lie as part of such an important commitment. In that case, you might be looking at a JP. If you can't tolerate that, then you will be in a position of choosing between your faith and him, and he will be in a position of choosing between his integrity and you. No one is going to be happy compromising, and you will have a real problem. Hopefully, it won't come to that.
I don't think it is damaging at all to the kids for them to know that you and he have different opinions about God, as long as it is clear that you are able to agree to disagree and that you don't expect the kids to take sides. If a child asks about God, just say "People have a lot of different opinions and no one knows for sure who is right and who is wrong. It is something everyone must figure out for themselves as they grow older. Here's what I think. Daddy thinks something different, and that's OK. You should ask him what he thinks some time." The critical thing for the child is to know that everyone loves each other and that there isn't an ongoing issue.
My concern is the pressure you are going to be under the raise the children as Mormon from your bishop and your family. I'll go ahead and say that I agree with Richard Dawkins that it is deeply unfair for people to plant certain beliefs in their children's heads before they are old enough to critically examine those beliefs and accept or reject them on their own. Your children are simply not mature enough to form an educated opinion on God. Many adults are not, either. I think the best path for your kids would be to resist the pressure you will face and, with your hudband's support, educate them about all religion before asking them to choose just one.
Lazy is a word we use when someone isn't doing what we want them to do.
- Dr. Joy Brown
Four months MIGHT be jumping the proverbial gun. I urge caution to both parties involved. There are almost always 'dealbreakers' lurking just under the uplifted toliet seat and half-cooked meatloaf.
I wish that I were the ultimate poster child for this type of scenario. My wife grew up pentecostal (apostolic according to her) and I was raised catholic until age 9. I became an outspoken atheist shortly after W was 'elected'. She was 'backsliding' until I used a southern baptist church to appease her need for religion. We found an extremely small, extremely kind bunch of old folks who did not gasp in shock the day that I announced our impending nuptials after having three children together and her recent granted divorce. (This was in 1999)
Firstly, your questions:
These are two separate questions. It's easy to get married however it is agreed upon. Obviously, if you are thinking about it then all that need be done is acting upon it.
Staying married requires small sacrifices of both people and finding common enemies is a necessity. My wife and I loathe the WBC(Phelps troupe) ergo we enjoy discussing the uber-bad facets of their cult behavior.
Likewise, using one's own ideology as a platform for attack and ad hominem attacks precipitate heated emotions which sometimes carry over into the more intimate aspects of the relationship. *wink wink nudge nudge*. She attacks me for my RRS groupie status. I attack her for her old-fashioned christian conservative attitude. We make up when the other has gone too far.
So far, it has and it hasn't worked. There were two years in there when the union was perched upon a thread of thin cotton. Ground rules are set and quite often tested. Ultimately, cooler heads prevail and the discourse is maintained.
On to the next question:
This question leads to a more subjective one: Which parent is the more conniving and manipulative?
A piece of my personal philosophy is that in order to truly hate something then one must fully understand it. Why would I not want my children to be casually exposed to the world in which they live? I am not in their minds. My one goal was to raise skeptics not atheist activists. I must say that it is quite common to see a child nurtured into freethought will likely follow that path and to me that speaks loads with regard to the endeavor itself.
Perhaps it is best to offer both 'worlds' and their interactions for themselves. If you have done the research and it still makes sense to you then why would you be unable to convince your children that 'Mommy knows best'?
On a side note: I find it highly unlikely that you could find an LDS preacher in my neck of the woods that would offer the time of day to you and yours simply due to the circumstances. It is my sincere hope that if you do get married then the ceremony and subsequent honeymoon will be memorable enough to cling to during the rough times ahead.
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It is my belief that marraiges fail because of selfishness and a lack of mutual respect . If you set aside questions of belief for a second, I think you will discover that there are those on both sides of the question that consider respect, commitment, compassion, understanding, etc to be critical to a long relationship. And, unfortunatley, there are jerks among both theists and atheists.
My Artwork
My boyfriend knows about my post and he read it before I posted it. He, in fact, is unsure about a religious wedding. I don't doubt him at all. He is doubting himself on that. We love each other and to me, that's all that matters. I honestly don't want to get married, because in my own mind, marriage is a joke these days. Maybe not to all, but to most it is.
The reason that we are discussing this so early in our relationship is that I'm already 27 years old with 4 kids and I'm not getting any younger and I don't want to waste my time with someone that it won't work out with. He agrees full heartedly. Neither of us want to spend our time with someone we know won't work out.
However, we have agreed to disagree. I also feel that a child, when of a good age, should make their own choices. I was 13 when I joined the LDS church and I was and still am the only member of my family in the church. My children go to church with me, but I will never force them to be baptized as LDS until they are ready or choose another path. I'm more of a free-spirited and open-minded Mormon. I have never lost my faith but I do have my own thoughts and ideas about things. Some Mormon's may argue that I'm not a Mormon then, but they often will not judge. My Bishop and so many others are amazing individuals. They don't judge nor would they ever turn someone away from being married, even under these circumstances. As it is now, I'm living the life of a "sinner" by still being legally married to my kids' father and sleeping/living with another man, not to mention the whole sex before marriage bit. But, in the end, it's my own choices and free will to do what I choose and my own salvation and not anyone elses.
Anyways, thank you for your replies. We both really appreciate it and I hope that he will get an account here and reply to speak for himself. He is the one that introduced me to this site afterall.
.::Proud to be an American Christian::.
If you're still married to another man you can't marry your current boyfriend. Perhaps you should work on the divorce before you think about another marriage.
If you don't feel comfortable with marriage and think it's a sham then don't do it. There are plenty of people co-existing together who are not married.
If god takes life he's an indian giver
I should have said this before, but for the record, my divorce will be finalized as of next Tuesday. I know that I can't be married to two men at once. The ex and I have been separated for over 2.5 years now. That is the only reason I've started dating again. My current boyfriend brought up marriage and I said I would consider it.
.::Proud to be an American Christian::.
Fair enough. I was under the impression that you were still married and no divorce was happening.
If god takes life he's an indian giver
As far as raising kids in a atheist/christian marriage, I think the most important thing is to allow the child to learn for itself what it believes. To that end, teaching the child critical thinking skills is essential. Teach how to think, not what to think. Teach the children what mommy believes and what daddy believes, and teach them that it's okay for people and parents to believe different things and that doesn't make one or the other a 'liar', it just makes a difference of opinion. After all, you can neither prove nor disprove god's existence, so neither side can be proven wrong/lying. As long as mom and dad truly love each other, then think of it as a wonderful opportunity to model cooperative disagreement to the children. They will see that religion/belief doesn't have to come between people and they will understand this as they grow older and use it in their own lives.
Teach the kids to think for themselves, provide them with lots of interesting information from both sides (and why not from many different sides?) and they will learn and learn and learn. That's what kids do best. I don't think you have anything to fear, as long as you don't let anyone try to indoctrinate your kids to think dad is evil because he's an atheist.
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speaking as someone who has lost the love of my life... if you really care about this guy then just marry him. the circumstances of the wedding ceremony don't really matter in the large scheme. besides, you mention this is a second wedding. did you have your first wedding in a church? if you did, maybe you can see looking back that it doesn't matter now.
as far as raising the kids, i'm an atheist and i would not raise my children to memorize that there is no god. i prefer the methods of raising a child as a critical thinker. period. there's a book you should check out: "Parenting Beyond Belief: On Raising Ethical, Caring Kids Without Religion." maybe it would help both you and your hubby to be decide on a mutally respectable approach.
[edit: natural can type faster than me
]
Actually, my first wedding was in front of a huge oak tree, in a park just southeast of Dallas. I being Mormon and he being Methodist had a Baptist preacher, close friend of his, marry us. It was the BEST wedding anyone could ask for if you're one to not have a lot of drama with money and planning. I wouldn't mind that same type of wedding but I don't know anyone that could marry us outside of a church or JP's office.
.::Proud to be an American Christian::.
You could try finding a Humanist group. They might have a Humanist 'minister' (or whatever they call them) who can perform a marriage ceremony according to your preferences. Also you could try a Unitarian Universalist minister if you have them in your area. They accept anybody, including atheists.
Wonderist on Facebook — Support the idea of wonderism by 'liking' the Wonderism page — or join the open Wonderism group to take part in the discussion!
Gnu Atheism Facebook group — All gnu-friendly RRS members welcome (including Luminon!) — Try something gnu!
I'm curious how you resolve the fact that your church would strongly oppose your union.
I don't know about your church specifically, but there are a lot of churches that see it as simply intollerable to marry outside of the religion, and more so to an atheist.
A friend of mines wife was a strong Christian that married an Atheist. She ran into great amounts of discrimination and bad treatment from her former "friends" and the church represenatives themselves treated her quite horribly after getting married.
So the fact that your church does not approve of your potential marriage or of the relationship, how do you as a following of the faith resolve that? Do you pick and choose which rules to break, or do you just simply disagree yet still support the organization?
Not trying to pick a fight here, just honestly curious.
The best thing to do would be to really look at mormonism, realize how nuts their belief system is and deconvert. We'd be happy to help.
Then you're both atheists and there's no longer an "issue."
You go stunt baby.
Lazy is a word we use when someone isn't doing what we want them to do.
- Dr. Joy Brown
To get started, I'd recommend listening to a really informative show that Reggie did on the topic; interviewing an ex-Mormon.
Here's what you do:
Load up Itunes. (download here if you don't have it: http://www.apple.com/itunes/ )
Go to the Itunes Store (don't worry about the word store here.. it's FREE because we donate to help keep it free...)
Search for: Infidel Guy and the subscribe to the one called "The Way of Reason..."
Click over to your "Podcasts" tab in your library and look for the 10/18/2007 show called "IG: Mormonism: Behind the Mask" and click "GET"
It's about an hour long or so and touches on all sorts of stuff.
Free knowledge!
Did you seriously think I would take your advice? Please keep to the topic. Your advice had NOTHING to do with my questions. You're just insulting me and my beliefs. I thought this was "Kill them with kindess" thread?
.::Proud to be an American Christian::.
See, that is a common misconception with people that don't know anything about my church and beliefs. We don't judge people for what they do with their life or the choices they make. They try to help you in any way possible. They don't look at me any different than when I was married to my first husband. He was a non-member for several years then converted and fell away after we split up. Pardon my french, Shit happens. My bishop will have no problems performing a ceremony but it will be a religious one. He will not change the "proper" way just b/c someone doesn't like it. You should actually read and study about the LDS church and what we stand for and not judge us by what "other" religions preach and gossip about. I've gone to MANY churchs and all of them are as you have said above. They are liars, cheaters, manipulators, gossipers, judging, mean, hateful, biggotted, and dishonest with others and themselves. I will have no part in that kind of behavior or those kind of people. Anyways, I didn't see you as picking fight. You're just unknowing of the LDS people and faith.
.::Proud to be an American Christian::.
I think I might need some clarification. I was under the assumption that a Mormon bishop wouldn't marry a mormon to a gentile. I admit that I don't know a lot about the Mormon religion but I thought that most Mormons consider themselves the 'chosen' ones - religious mixed marriages are not acceptable.
If you feel I am wrong, please clarify. Thanks.
If god takes life he's an indian giver
Yes. I'm a glass half-full kinda guy.
It sure did. If you were both unbelievers, this would be a simpler problem to solve right?
I'm sorry that you chose to be insulted by my perfectly kind and civil posts that offered another perspective and more information on the situation.
The "Kindness" part is toward the people, which I've shown toward you. Belief systems don't get a free pass. You noticed the "Kill 'em" part right?
Has your fiancee registered yet? I'd like to offer some pointers his way as well.
I had the same impression. I'm honestly not going to invest the time to research the specifics of your religion. I'd elaborate on that but you don't want to hear my reason.
When you die, and you move on to your Celestial Kingdom and your loving husband is limited to the Terrestial (i assume he's a good person) how do you resolve knowing you can't be with him in the afterlife? Or perhaps you yourself will be in the Terrestial due to the marriage?
What little I know could be wrong, but he would never be able to attain Celestial status and never be able to become a God of his own planet, but you in theory could? Are you ultimately doomed to be seperated in the afterlife by your own belief?
If I was him, I would never accept being associated with a religious marriage ceremony. Though I find the words meaningless and that they dont' affect me, I would hate for something that I consider to be pointless and trival to be associated with my Wedding.
I would state my disapproval of religion being brought in association with my marriage and would find anything after the first commentary on it to be simply offensive. I believe you asking him to participate in your momon ceremony should be seen as offensive to him (not respecting his beliefs), offensive to you (knowing he doesn't care about a lot of the details of his own wedding), offensive to your church (blessing a marriage of someone incapable of attaining the celesital realm) , and offensive to anyone else involved (due to all of the above).
That's just off the top of my head anyways.
Firstly, I won't inherit the Celestrial kingdom b/c I am not going to marry another member of the church and I will not be married in the temple and I'm okay with that.
Secondly, Bishops do perform marriages in the church all the time to members with non-member spouses. It's the temple that you can not get into without being a member of the church and worthy to enter the temple for your marriage.
As I've said before, I'm not going to argue with anyone that they are wrong or that they are right. I'm here ONLY to speak my side of things and share what I know. You can choose to not read it if you like. I've already asked my boyfriend to register but he won't do it. He only browses the forums.
Have a great week.
.::Proud to be an American Christian::.
Excuse me but I asked for clarification of the religion as I am not an expert on the Mormon religion. I had heard that Mormons bishops don't marry Mormons and Gentiles. I don't see how that was arguing wrong or right. While I realize this is ktwk, you are being far too sensitive.
If you get upset because people are asking questions about your religion WITHOUT saying whether it's right or wrong, I'm afraid you're not going to have a good time here. I prefer to know the facts before I express an opinion - if you don't like that, too bad.
If people aren't aware of certain aspects of your religion and question things about it, its generally better to respond nicely than refuse to discuss it and get all uppity about it.
If god takes life he's an indian giver
My intent here is not to argue, I'm curious how you resolve conflicts. I expressed my opinion on how I view the situation. I believe that one of you will ultimately have to step up and be big about it and I believe that any situation where you mary an atheist is going to end up with someone being disrespected for their views. Perhaps getting married both using a religious and a civil ceremony is an option. Perhaps you can sign the civil paper-work marriage as prior to the religous ceremony. Would your faith recognize civil marriages? If not then you could have them seperated and just avoid the signing of papers at the end of the religous ceremony since I assume the paper work is meaningless in the eyes of your religon.
Assumptions being made here, correct me if I'm wrong.
And I agree with Jane, take the comments for what they are. Commentary. You posted on forum where people profess to hold very strong opinions of your faith you have to expect a lack of respect for your faith because not all atheist, myself included, are respectful of faith.
I am curious about how you personally resolve things which is where my questions lie, but honestly I don't respect your faith nor should you expect me to not be plain about my comments / questions.
I'm still not understanding why the religious ceremony is so important to you, personally. You said you will not "inherit the Celestrial kingdom" due to this marriage so if you're okay with that consession (assuming it's a consession) so why is the location of the wedding more important that your afterlife?
I'm going to make this my last post here about my getting married. Robert and I will be married in August. Neither of us want to be married by a JP and I never said I had to be married in a religious ceremony. I only said I'd like my Bishop to marry us b/c I know him and I'm comfortable with him. The religious part is just there but not an obligation. We're going to explore our options on the idea that national recommended. The location of the ceremony was never more important than anything. In fact, I did answer your question Shelly once before when you asked me that same question. Location had never played a part in my questions. My questions were about how an Atheist and Christian get married and how do they raise their child and sure enough this turned into a debate over religion? Just because I am Mormon and he is Atheist does not matter! We're getting married regardless of anyones opinion. Thanks for the advice and commentary. C-ya.
.::Proud to be an American Christian::.
Sadly I'll never know how people of faith resolve the conflicts because they all get mad and run away when asked questions about how they deal with their own religous conflicts. I don't believe I was out of line at all.
Actually, I thought the fact that you are a mormon and he's an atheist DID matter. Wasn't that the center of confusion on the whole issue?
I have no idea why you're so upset that people were asking questions or making comments about your religion. I went through this thread and I don't see that anyone was out of line. You need to get a thicker skin.
You wanted our opinion and we gave it to you. And people asked questions and wanted clarifications because they didn't know if the information they had was correct or not. I suggest that the next time you want an opinion you should brace yourself for the possibility that you might not hear what you want to.
Regardless, best of luck to you and your future husband.
If god takes life he's an indian giver
It's ShellEy... and yes you did. Which is why I was surprised when it came up again.
This is why I hardly ever come into this section of the forums. If she became so upset over nothing in here imagine what we would do to her in Atheist Vs. Theist.
I'd get banned from this section so quickly if I hung out in here. Actually I'm vacating this part of the forum immediately before I get myself in trouble.
"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci
Well if the fiancee really DOES read the boards, he should think really really hard about this marriage. This foot-stamping, not hearing other opinions stuff is what wrecks them. Get a pre-nup! (or keep shoppin)
Phew, you got out just in time, Watcher. I had my finger on the button...
Lazy is a word we use when someone isn't doing what we want them to do.
- Dr. Joy Brown