absolutely, but there is also a third proposition here. god gives us pain and suffering to test our faith. I find this also fallacious, because...why would a god need to test our faith, if he truly existed? Wouldn't a loud booming voice heard all over the world intermittently assuring us he's still there be better than raping babies? or cancer? or malaria, or any of the other millions of diseases and genetic disorders out there? not to mention war, and human hate? Does this mean god cannot control his own creation? Why would a god want to test our faith anyway? is he a sadist? Is he enjoying watching us die and suffer for the ultimate price? "Yeah, way to go praying while you were in agonizing pain with cancer. You win eternal salvation, please proceed to the gates for your heavenly prize." I mean...that's what I don't understand about, testing faith. Why must we be tested in the first place? Does god not have the power to create humans that are inherently faithful?

wow...
i dont know what christian's you've been talking to! As far as why God allows evil and suffering, the answer does not lie in "testing faith," or "so we can know pleasure."

the answer is simple: evil exists in the heart of man. for God to rid the world of evil would be to rid the world of humans. therefore, it is actually an act of mercy that he lets evil continue** for he is sparing humanity's existence. this is the orthodox teaching of evil and man's situation.

But God cannot be blamed for evil existing in man's heart. it was man's conscious, willful decision to disobey. God did not curse us, Adam did. I'm not big on the whole "free-will" concept, i think the term "liberty" is much more appropiate. Carl Trueman at Westminster Theological Seminary says that "the possibility of evil is something that God must allow if human beings are to have any significant freedom. Evil and suffering are, if you like, the price worth paying for liberty."

Augustine is quoted saying, "Evil is not a created thing, but spoiled goodness made possible by the free moral agency of rational creatures." he continues that this not only absolves God of creating evil but also allows Him to show the world His love by bringing Christ into the world.

Could God have made humans with the ability to always WILL to do good? Maybe. But he didn't. And I believe he had a perfect reason for giving us liberty. Would you rather have a dog that would run to you when you called its name, or a dog that you would have to go and force to sit at your feet? he desires for us to love him in return, honestly, without force or coercion.

AZSuperman01, there used to be sin in Heaven. Remember, sin originated in heaven with Lucifer. So yes, you could sin in heaven (hence the fallen angels). And the devil could roam in and out of Heaven until Christ provided atonement. This is why Christ's blood is so remarkable. It not only cleansed the earth and humans, but heaven as well. Sin can no longer enter through the gates.

You are wrong to conclude that we wouldn't have liberty in heaven. Those who love God are being conformed to his will daily - not by force - but because they desired it. At death, we are completely sanctified and glorified, our will's are finally conformed to him entirely. This is how we will live in heaven. Therefore, there is still liberty, but there is no sin. We will be rightly related to our Lord.

** Even though evil is a present reality, the bible teaches that Christ's redemption has reversed the fall of man. Evil is now ceasing to continue and peace has come!

I believe it's your standard run of the mill voters

Ok, refresh my memory here.. who created the heart of man?

Interestingly enough, "god" gets rid of humans all the time, miscarriages, disease, genetic disorders, natural disasters, ...etc..etc..etc...
However, what you are saying here is that humans are intrinsically and fundamentally evil. So...if that is the case...is earth fundamentally hell?

But it makes no sense, 2 things here:

1. Presumed God does not commit acts mercy, for allowing 5 year olds to die of cerebral malaria only because he allowed them to have the misfortune of being born in poverty in Africa and for him to have created a parasite that is spread through mosquitos, why make parasites? why make mosquitos?

2. Why would this Presumed God allow evil (humans) to continue to live if, they are in fact intrinsically evil? This is a paradox if you believe your presumed god is an all loving wonderful omniscient, omnipotent being. How is this merciful? The orthodox teaching of evil and mans' situation seems more like a scapegoat strawman argument, baseless and without rationality.

Sure you can blame your presumed god, if he/she/it in fact exists. Again, refresh my memory, who was it that created man's ability to be conscious and willful and able to make decisions?
You cannot have your cake and eat it to.
Either God created man, in his image, therefore, by following your rationale, god is NOT the righteous nice being you seem to make him out to be, because if that's the case than there is no way humans can be fundamentally evil, because that would make your presumed god fundamentally evil, OR man was just simply not created.

And why should there be a price for liberty in the first place? This is all conjecture without proof. Who is Carl Trueman to say that evil must exist, is he god? Perhaps he's had a conversation with God and god told him so? This is a complete copout. It does not answer the question. God, in his omniscient, omnipotent self, could have created a utopian world where there would be no need for suffering, unless he created evil and suffering to fulfill is theocentric ego? I mean...come on.

This quote implies that God, then is not the omniscient, omnipotent being everyone claims him/her/it to be. Does it not? Perhaps then, you're saying controlling evil is then beyond his capabilities? If that is the case, could you not then question the very ability for him to have created the world? Perhaps another God created the world but this god wants your patronage? Spoiled goodness in and of itself is created....for with out spoiling and without goodness you can't have spoiled goodness.

So you are equating us with pets? So then, presumed god desires for us to love it, isn't pride and vanity a sin? I guess presumed god can break his/its/her own rules?

So then, once we die our sould then no longer are free? So free will is only a condition of earth. And why is that? So are we here on earth as a test? Why put us here to begin with anyway? and another follow up question, why can we (our souls) remember anything from our former (non earth life) before we are born? Also, if our soul is created at conception, then, my third question is this, why is god actively creating souls...hundreds of thousand of them a day, if in fact, the apocalypse is coming, hwat happens during the apocalypse for women in labor? WHat happens in the apocalypse to those embryos? Do their souls fly up to heaven too? or are they damned? They haven't had a chance to Prove their free will, so therefore how would those sould be treated?

But as you said, if no sin is allowed in heaven how can we have liberty in heaven. If we all want to be conformed in heaven, then how can there be free will. How do you know then, that out of the hundreds of millions of souls in heaven that not one wants to sin? Is Satan and the fallen angels the only free will libertarians in heaven? But no longer will anyone want to sin in heaven? What do you base this on? Do you know this for a fact?

Again, how can you be so sure, maybe when you get to heaven you wouldn't want to be there anyway, at which point, would you have the free will to leave?

The argument makes no sense adamgrant, not rationally. Occam's Razor my friend.

But the fall of man is in direct cause wiht the creation of man. Evil is not ceasing to continue...look at the wars disease etc...

I hope that didn't violate rule #3. If it did then I apologize.

oh, AZ. you really don't know me at all! I'm very aware of the Isaiah verse, it was my favorite verse for a very long time. i liked to quote it to other christians to get a rise out of them and see how they reacted and if they even knew it was there. I have many different views of the Bible/God/Christianity than the mainstream, pop culture christians you are familiar with. I enjoy helping them realize things that are in the bible so that they can learn how to defend them.

When i read that verse, my mind was totally changed. God created evil! What a radical concept. But, if God did create evil, does that make him evil? Does it mean that he does evil things? See, the Bible teaches a Creator/Creature distinction. God is not what he creates. If he created all things, God cannot be all things. Or else, he would merely be a part of creation, and not a creator at all. When I write a song, do I become the song? No. But I wrote the song by my pleasure and for a purpose. As the artist, I have the full authority to do whatever I choose with that song. So it is with God. IF he is the creator of all things, then he would - logically speaking - have the right and would be just in doing whatever he pleases. If God really did create evil, then surely he had a reason, and it doesn't necessarily mean that he himself is evil. if that verse is true, there still is no contradiction or fault with the doctrines of the Bible.

But after studying for awhile I learned that evil cannot be created (maybe it can in terms of action) but evil is not a substance or a disease floating in the air. Evil is the absence, or perversion, of good. I also realized that the word 'evil' as translated in the King James version is more than likely an improper translation. The first half of the verse is comparing opposites - light and darkness. to flow along properly, it would seem that the word "peace" should be opposed by "war" rather than "evil." Or, if the message of the verse was that God creates evil, the writer might've used the opposite "good" in place of "peace." I suppose we would have to do an in-depth study on the original words in their original languages to decide the proper translation. But this is exactly why my NEW King James Bible says "calamity" in place of Evil.

oh, AZ. please. If you are going to use the Bible's teachings to refute it, please make sure you actually know the teachings. we were created in the IMAGE of God - *note* "IMAGE".. Not exact copies. We possess only certain attributes of his. Which do include love, hate, anger, mercy, etc. etc. He didn't create us with evil in our hearts. We chose to be evil. Quit blaming everything on God and take up some responsibility.

And we are not expected to rise to a higher standard than him! we can't even rise to his own standards in the first place! but christ did and that's why he imputes his righteousness to sinners.

Again, please know what the Bible teaches before you try to refute it. I've had to restate this very simple and common fact more than once on this forum, but here goes one more time:

Adam and Eve weren't ignorant. The Genesis account has Adam and Eve ruling in the garden, obeying every command of God's. He gave them strict rules, and told them the consequences if they disobeyed. They knew the difference between right (obeying God) and wrong (disobeying God) even though they hadn't yet commited a disobedient act. it was when they were deceived for a brief moment through temptation that they fully "knew" and had their "eyes opened" to what disobedience is like. They knew they were disobeying him, but they did it anyway, because they desired the fruit.

They were able to grasp the concept of disobedience. if they couldn't, it doesnt make much sense that God would've specifically told them not to eat of the tree if it would have just been useless jibberish to them. again, they were not ignorant. Adam walked and talked with God everyday, they were rightly related to each other. i really wish that you and the few others that keep re-hashing this same old, incorrect argument would please stop. The bible doesnt teach they were ignorant, christian's do not believe or teach that Adam and Eve were ignorant. Your putting your own spin into the story to try to make God look bad, and make christian's doubt their faith. But it will not work.

yes, it is liberty. because i am the one who chose to be conformed to his image. it was my free choice for him to take over my life and direct my destiny. I dont think in heaven i'll have the choice to NOT agree with God, because I have already made the choice to be in agreement with God.

I have liberty in Christ because I am his slave. Sounds dumb, doesn't it? But it is one of the key teachings of the new testament. And it might not make much sense unless he enslaves you.
-adam
p.s. I really love your profile image. I'm just as much against the rapture as you are! I think it is completely un-Biblical. I have a song called "I wanna be Left Behind" that pokes fun at Tim Lahaye and that whole doctrine. You can check it out at myspace.com/theslavecollars.

You're half way there. Now, if you realize that good is also not a substance, you'll be on your way to understanding that god and evil are judgments of actions, not a lack or fullness of something.

God and evil are words we use to describe the nature of actions and how they relate to the people, objects, etc they affect. This whole neoplatonic notion of God/Good and the lack of it (Satan/Evil) is based in very old and no-longer respectable philosophical ideologies. Thats the problem with theology; it's still stuck in pre-modern philosophy. Philosophy has moved on, so perhaps, should theology.

Those theologians that have moved on have either recognized the religious stories as myth, art, or have become atheists.

Shaun