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This is the
Kill Em
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PLEASE MAKE
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FOLLOW THE
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This is the
Kill Em
With
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Forum!
RULES
PLEASE MAKE
SURE TO
FOLLOW THE
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This is the
Kill Em
With
Kindness
Forum!
PLEASE MAKE
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If I understand you correctly, the Secular Web Library has essays on atheism and religious disbelief.
"What right have you to condemn a murderer if you assume him necessary to "God's plan"? What logic can command the return of stolen property, or the branding of a thief, if the Almighty decreed it?"
-- The Economic Tendency of Freethought
That is most unfortunate. I can assure you it is not a universal quality. I only show anger to those who bring it, and in that regard, welcome.
The question you ask can be better answered by others, so I'll defer to them for the source material you're looking for.
I personally disregard it on a number of fronts. In no particular order, it contradicts the laws of physics. It requires itself to be taught to be known. It uses threats as coersion. It depends on itself to prove itself. And it is contradictory to itself.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
Interesting. You start out by insulting everyone here, and then you wonder if people will be kind in return.
Do you know what a 'projection-identification' is?
It occurs when a person projects out their own anger or hatred onto others, and then is 'shocked' when this anger is returned in kind.They then use this 'angry response' as proof that the 'anger' comes from the other person.
Here's a nice chart to explain it:
Step 1: A person starts out with unconscious feelings of anger or hatred of the other.... ones that they disavow as really belonging to them.
Step 2: They then place these feelings on the other person, and then act towards this person in accord with their feelings. The "angry, hateful" person is treated as such a person 'deserves'.
Step 3: The object of this attack becomes defensive. He or she may respond in kind. This response is taken by the initiator as the 'proof' that the anger and hatred resides in the object. The person's inital belief is 'verified'. . The person is unable to see the self fulfilling aspects of their initial belief is the very cause of the problem.
It is good advice for people on both sides of an adversarial situation to examine their own role in the matter, to learn to what level they themselves are responsible for the outcome. The belief that most exchanges take place between sociopaths and innocent victims is a self serving one, and a position of immaturity.
So you might want to consider your role in the fact that all the atheists you meet are angry.... maybe that's what you find, because that's what you expect to find. After all, there is only one 'constant' to be found here amongst all your interactions with all of these hateful atheists:
You.
Nobody needs to refer to such a source to know what love and respect are. We learn it from our families and significant others. We learn it from our ability to sympathize and empathize with others. We learn it because humans are naturally inter-relational beings. The most important thing to people is people.
"Hitler burned people like Anne Frank, for that we call him evil.
"God" burns Anne Frank eternally. For that, theists call him 'good.'
I find your words very interesting in the light of the post I have just written. Thank you.
"Hitler burned people like Anne Frank, for that we call him evil.
"God" burns Anne Frank eternally. For that, theists call him 'good.'
No problem.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
I apologize. It was not meant to be an insult. I simply was giving some background of my experiences. If I had not seen this thread, I would've completely ignored these forums all together and just regarded this website as another "We hate Christians, God, and Faith" type of site.
So what does the thirteen year-old son learn from his abusive alcoholic father? Does he learn what love is from his father? If I all I ever see is a sleezy low-life boozer like him for love, what do I know of love?
All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. - Matthew 10:22
Presumably the thirteen year old has friends, goes out of the house, watches tv, etc. The thing is, your father is definitely not all that you ever see, so you have plenty of empirical evidence that love exists, even if you don't receive it from your father.
WalkonWater, the primary thing we do at this site is expose logical fallacies. Your question, even if it was meant less than literally, contains a falsehood -- that is, if a father does not love his son, then the son cannot know love. The logical proof that this is not so is that unless the son has been completely cut off from all human interaction his whole life, he has seen love.
The same sort of logical fallacies are necessary to a belief in god. One of the reasons people get very angry with us is we have the audacity to point out to them that their arguments are flawed. We don't do it in anger, but they get very defensive when their views are questioned, and project hatred. In many of their minds, the only reason a person would question their beliefs is a lack of respect for them.
On the contrary, it is because atheists DO respect others that we try to free them from thinking that is damaging to themselves and others. Imagine if your friend was holding a stick of dynamite thinking that it was a roman candle. You would try to correct his mistake before he lit the fuse, wouldn't you?
That's what we're doing here. Trying to help others. I think you'll find that most everyone here is exceptionally nice if you're honest and don't resort to attacking us first.
Stick around! Maybe we can help you.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
Cool. Forget it then.
I accept that, but that's precisely how most adversarial situations start. Both sides always feel that they are the wrong party, and that the other guy started it.
Ok. But as Gandhi said "If you really want to see change, first be the change you want to see."
Don't get me wrong, I don't always follow that precept either.
And yet, that 13 year old probably does love Dad, and probably has learned something from him about love, no matter how meager.
And then there's mom, or grandma, or friends.... There's no need to appeal to the supernatural to explain how and why people love.... my cat can be loving, did he need to read Romans?
"Hitler burned people like Anne Frank, for that we call him evil.
"God" burns Anne Frank eternally. For that, theists call him 'good.'
My issue with theists: They believe things they can't prove.
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Hey water walker guy, perhaps you just bring out the worst in people. I'm not terribly pleased getting roused out of bed to see a couple of overly cheeful Christians at my door trying to sell me their product. Maybe if you just waited until after I've had my coffee and a good BM then I'd be a bit more agreeable.
I don't know if these would be great picks for most of the people on this board, but if you want reading material, the following was influential to me.
Betrand Russell has some good stuff (http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/bertrand_russell/). "Why I Am Not A Christian" is a famous essay.
I really liked the book "Beyond Born Again" by Robert Price. You can read it here: http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/robert_price/beyond_born_again/index.shtml
It's a really good book if you come from an evangelical christian background, like I did, but if you didn't then you might want to skip it.
It does kinda suck to read a whole book on a computer screen though, so get one of the many good books that have been coming out by Dawkins, Harris, Ehrman, etc.
My 2 cents on the love/bitter athiest issue. The bible does have some great passages about love, but the bible / christians don't have a monopoly on the idea of love. This "ownership" does come across as arrogant, even when it's unintended, which could lead to some defensive behavoir.
Anyway, I prefer the way love is described in the song "Love" by John Lennon. A little more poetic and personal than 1 Cor 13, if you ask me.
Well insted of pointing the finger at all atheists, do what all humans should do and look at people as individuals. They are intitled to their anger and their anger is justified, just as it was for blacks in the 1950s and 60s.
You lack understanding of the stigma attached to atheists and lack understanding of the word itself. It is because of religious belief that unessary stereotypes are laid upon us.
Now having said that, I myself do not mind a verbal brawl with someone and dont assume they hate me just because they use strong language. But that is a personal choice and each atheist here deals with how they are approached in different ways.
If you are asking for sympathy it depends apon what for. If you are blindly attacked by anyone over any issue based on a stereotype they they are ignorant.
BUT, if you are playing victim and not trying to undestand what atheists go through then you will not and should not get any sympathy. When I say you, I mean believers in general.
We are not going to back of people who seek to demonize us and marginalize us. Its great when people want to come here and debate. It is great when people seek understanding. But demanding polliticall correctness by anyone over "hurt feelings" is not the answer.
Human nature is in all of us. It is in the Muslim, Jew. Christian and atheist. We all should express our thoughts and emotions without fear and we all should be able to bitch about things we dont like. Why, not because everyone is right or wrong, but because we are all subject to human disire and human emotions.
So the key that I think will end bigotry, is not in silencing hatefull and hurtfull words, but to remember that we can have our emotions but all of us DO NOT HAVE TO ACT ON THEM JUST BECAUSE WE DONT LIKE SOMETHING, OR BECAUSE WE MAY FEEL HURT.
It is also human disire to be liked, but it is also normal to not like everyone. I think the key is to see everyone as individuals and look at bitching as just that. Bitching should be seen as merley complaining and venting about something and not externalized and projected as a stereotype one is sold and then repeats.
It all comes down to self awareness and introspection. I do myself use strong language. Other atheists dont. Even the ones use "g" rated language can be as angrey as me. I do warn everyone both believe and atheist not to see one label as a blanket assesment of all in that label.
You seem to prefure calm discussion. There are plenty of atheists here willing to do that. Me however, I prefure a no holds barred debate. It in no way means I hate all believers.
I would be with you against any atheist that would physically assault a believer, or distroyed personal property. No one on either side of the issue should ever resort to that.
However, survays show that atheists in AMERICA are the most dispised and distrusted minority in America. This site is dispelling stereotypes that all atheists think the same.
The fact that some here would go along with you on a "g" rated tactic, while others like me would not, should be one example of showing you that atheists are not all the same.
We would apreciate people like you spreading the word that it is ok to treat an atheist as an equal, as an individual, and even be willing to vote for one.
AGAIN, if you want to bitch about someone, bitch about that person, dont equate all under that label as the same and dont assume that because some here use strong language that we hate religious people.
"Love the sinner not the sin" atheists have their own non religious version, "Like the person, but not the claim"
We cant and should not lie to you that we like the claims you make. We see religious claims as perpetuation of magic and fiction. Do you want a friend to lie to you or is honesty more important? We wont hate people who simply because they believe, but we do dispise the blind expectation that religion should be off limits to questioning.
My advice is simple, dont make assumptions about what an "angry" atheist's intent is. If we are angry that makes us as human as an angre Christian. What gets us beyond that anger is not supression of it, but the empathy that we all have emotions and a disire to express them. BUT neither side should ever make blanket statements about the other and we all can treat each other as individuals.
NEITHER SIDE SHOULD FEAR OPRESSION OR PHYSICAL HARM OR ARREST OF THE OTHER, no matter what is said, BUT WE ALL SHOULD HAVE THE RESPONSIBILITY THAT IN ANY EVENT WE CAN CONTROL OUR ACTIONS IN RESPONSE TO THINGS WE DONT LIKE.
I am trying to give venters and bitchers on both sides along with the more "polite" people the understanding that all will express ourselves in different ways, both believer and non-believer and neither is wrong as far as both having emotions. We all can do this without assuming hate and without physically reacting in negitive ways.
What we are utimatly doing here is trying to spark debate. So try to get past that "anger" and try to understand why we are angry.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Hmm... Obviously I'm not "saying what I mean and meaning what I say".
I'm a student, as anyone who looks at my profile can tell. I'm studying logic, rhetoric, and humanities. I'm learning about logical fallacies (although I was told I'd learn that with material logic, not traditional.)
I'm not claiming to be "the one who can prove God exists" or that "the Holy Spirit is real." because I, unlike many; am comfortable with the fact that I can't prove and explain all the tenets of my faith. Because faith requires of certain level of belief in the unknown. That does not bother, although it may not be logical or rational; I still do it.
And I know that people seem to think that it's weakness or a crutch in which I lean on to help deal with the problems of life. I don't give a rat's rear end. It doesn't bother me. The joy that I have is worth being called a "weakling", "church boy", or "priesty-touchy". I don't understand why people look at Christians and say, "They are weak when they cling on to that God of their's."
All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. - Matthew 10:22
"belief in the unknown"?
Ok, I believe in the unknown atributes of my purple snarfwidget? Don't know what that is? Whats that you say? You wont buy it blindly?
You are stuck on warm fuzzy emotoins of having a super dad in the sky and that is all the "belief in the unknown" ammounts to.
You would rightfully reject my naked assertion of a purple snarfwidget and you'd be justified. Now try understanding why you reject my unfounded claim and apply that same logical reasoning to your own claims.
Wanting something to be real is not the same as having evidence for it. You admited not having evidence. Maybe you need to rethink your position if you clearly and rightfully admit you have none. You will not be smited or smoted or sent to a firery pit if you change your position.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
And just what proof do you have that I won't meet the ultimate suffering?
I know that the burden of proof is in my hands, but I only use that question as a rhetorical device. You see, I do not take your stance that all things imaginery can be taken to with faith. Santa Claus is a prime example of one who can be taken to with faith, but not on a level that God can be... Although I was never "coaxed" into believing in Santa, I can how a young child would find evidence of Santa's existence. Presents come at midnight, must be asleep or no presents, must be virtuous to obtain delightful gifts, gifts are opened and all are merry.
However, with God there are sacrifices. Large sacrifices. As young man who desires to do the will of God, I abstain from dating. However, because of my character, it is not difficult for me to gain friendship with the opposite gender; therefor I have not in the past and would not in the hypothetical present and future have difficulty find a girlfriend. And why stop there? There are many things which Chrisitans abstain from that would very desirable. Drinking, smoking, partying, sex, homosexual relationships, orgies, you name it.
With Santa, you've got to remember not to hit your sister before Christmas... Don't lie when you stole the last cookie... Remember to take out the trash when Dad tells you to. These things are sacrifices, but one's that do not have much moral bearing.
I'm not saying this proves God's existance, I'm not even sure this proves anything; but what I hope to draw a distinction between is your purple snarfwidget and God.
As for emotions, hmm, interesting prospect isn't it? Just what do we know about emotions? Where do they come from? Is it all in our head and what proof do we have of that? But of course, that's probably beyond the scope of our little discussion. I'm not an expert on emotions or psychology and I cannot begin to delve into it's mysteries, all I know is what I observe of myself and others around me.
By the way, God is not super dad in the sky. He's not holding my hand while I sin against Him. God, is more like a three-in-one supervisor and creator of all things. Being that He created us, He had compassion for the things He created; much like a master woodworker takes pride in a skillfully made piece of wooden furniture. If we want to debate on the existance of God, maybe we should define our terms; would that not make sense?
All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. - Matthew 10:22
Ooh! I feel obliged to respond. Take it up with the those pesky Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons. They are dead to the body of Christ.
All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. - Matthew 10:22
That reveals quite the god complex you have there.
See that's the problem, to the people of my church (myself included), Jehovah's Witnesses and Latter Day Saints (Mormons) are not Christians but actually occultists; and whether they realize or not, that's what I believe. Whenever I see them coming I run and grab my Bible and prepare to give them a spiritual spanking, in a manner of speaking.
Denominations are so different and yet all have a few critical beliefs. They must be addressed seperately, because they're differences make a very unique distinction from another. Catholics vs. Pentacostals, ect.
All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. - Matthew 10:22
And your Christ is based on Pagan mythology, so what does that make you other than a blasphemer for putting yourself on the same level as your god?
Pagan mythology? Hardly.
To which pagan mythology are your referring to? I'm familiar with both Greek and Roman pagan rituals, occults, philosophies, and religious beliefs.
All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. - Matthew 10:22
Mithra, Osiris, Hercules to name a few.
Oh, hell... what was the story that sounds just like Moses, only it's a lot older...
My brain's failing me, but I don't feel like looking up what someone else will know off the top of their head.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
First off, why do you view other forms of Christianity as occultists? Is it not equally possible that your church are the actually occultists? If not, why?
Secondly, many Christian practices (from all demoninations) have their origins in pagan beliefs. For starters, the idea of someone coming down from heaven to save your soul from hell, is hardly a Christian idea. We see this same concept going as far back as the time of Osiris (Or Isis, I may be mixing up my Egyptian Gods). The practice of drinking wine goes back to at least to the worship of Dionysis (if not further back, it's simply the earliest case that I can think of off-hand). The followers of the god Mithras (who dates back to 5BCE) would worship Mithras with a communion meal of bread and wine, they called him the light of the world, his birthday was celebrated on December 25th and lasted 12 days (this is where the 12 days of Christmas come from), and the Vatican was built over the site where his main temple once stood. Infact, to gain converts, the early church was known to deleprately adopt pagan holidays and traditions.
http://flyingbagpiper.blogspot.com
What proof do you have that my purple snarfwidget or maybe Thor or Osirus wont send you to your ultimate suffering? Why would you want to believe in an ultimate suffering anyway? Sounds horrible and vendictive to me?
Sure you were. "Santa" didnt "poof" magically incert itself into your brain, your parents told you. That idea was planted in your head by your parents and what better way to get a spoung to absorb a lie than give it cookies.
If it only took "faith" to believe in Santa then why do you now know it was your parents which was the reality? You figured it out. Someone may have burst your fantacy, maybe another kid told you the truth and you investigated to see if they were telling you the truth. Or you simply got wise to your parents scam.
That is what I did as a kid. No one told me Santa wasnt real. I simply compaired the stories my parents told me and the fantacy movies and cartoons on tv to the actuall reality of what happened Christmas eve. 8 Reigndeer are not going to fly or land on the narrow roof of a town house. Nore do any species of deer have the capability of flight. Nore did we have a chimney. My dad threw rocks at the roof to try to fool me into thinking the reigndeer had landed on the roof. I could hear my dad talking in the back yard while he was doing it.
God doesnt require the sacrifice of anything anymore than Harry Potter requires you to give him lint from your pocket to fuel his magic broom he flys around on.
You disire a protector. That is a natural product of evolution. The unfortunate side effect is that early humans made bad guess on how to protect themselves the result was the invention of gods to fill act as the answers when there were none.
You need a bearded sky daddy to to that? I am 40. I used to date and was once married. I dont do it now because I have had those experiances, wouldnt trade them for the world. But I certainly wouldnt obstain from them based on a myth.
There are good reasons not to have sex and have nothing to do with magic. You could end up with a baby you dont want, or the sex partner didnt want. You could end up with a birth defect baby that you couldnt find a home for or couldnt afford to take care of. You could end up giving your partner a desease or getting one from them. Or you could simply have sex with them and find out you dont like them and still have to be around them because of common friends or common work.
All the above are valid reasons to obstain. But that doesnt mean you should never do it and it doesnt mean you should wait untill marriage either. It is about educating yourself about your own body, about your partner and about the ramifications. But considering all that together does not constitute Jesus over Allah over Vishnu or Thor.
You dont need Thor or Allah or Jesus to decide to do those things or not do those things. But to imply that all people that drink, or smoke or partake in group sex that all of them, every single one is out to distroy humanity, is a bunch of garbage. All these things have always existed in ancient culture all the way up to present day. That is not an advocation to do those one of those things or do a combo of those things or do all those things. Just a simple recognition that they do happen.
And what a waste of hope that was. There is no differance. That is the point you are missing. Made up is made up no matter how you dress it up.
Emotions are caused by a variety of natural, NOT MAGICAL OR DIVINE....merely natural events. Our senses, sight, smell, touch, taste and hearing combined with our upbringing all work as input that will affect what our brain subconcioulsy or conciously how we react to a given situation.
We can even do brain scans to map out intencity of certain emotions and what part of the brain is most active during these emotions. Again, no deity needed to do that. Simple medical and scientific technology.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
No, that's just it. I never believed in Santa. My parents felt it would a cruel thing to see me get excited about Santa and then to discover that Santa was just hoax
Umm... Says who? You-who-are-so-sure-that-God-is-not-real, how can you account sacrifice to something you don't believe? If you were a theist, and indeed a Christian, you would know of what sacrifice I refer. And though I am not saying it's impossible to know of sacrifice, I do claim that you are ignorant to exactly what it is that we do and why.
Uh-huh, tell that to my father, who watched me get excited when my training sword came and my gun came in the mail; both of which I keep at my bedside at all times.
No, and I'd appreciate it if you'd show some respect to me by not referring to my God as something less. When you tell a child that Santa is real, you don't just blurt it out; you say it in a loving and respectful way as not to crush their spirits or make them extremely traumatized. If you ever hope to do anything but goad a theist, you need to stop degrading that which they put so much stock in.
I do not deny that. God is not a magician who pulls a coin from behind your ear to make you happy when you can't buy a soda from the machine. Often times when debating about issues of moral base I must fall back on an atheistic view because of the very diverse culture I'm in.
I'll spell it out for you all who are reading this. I am a Christian. I believe that God is a three-in-one deity: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. I believe that Jesus was born of the virgin Mary, who did have original sin; but was graced by the Holy Spirit and gave birth to Jesus the soon-to-be Christ. I believe that Jesus died on the cross as a sacrifice to atone for the sins of every individual of that present and that future (meaning now and our future generations). I believe that he descended to hell and gave every captive there a chance to repent and enter the kindom of heaven. I believe that he rose again on the third day. I believe that after he ascended after forty days of fellowship and teaching with his disciples and other witnesses. I believe that he left so that the Holy Spirit, which is the comforter; could come. I believe that the Holy Spirit empowered and still empowers people with the gifts that are spoken of in the New Testment (1 Corinthians 12:10, 1 Corinthians 12:28). I am not a polytheist and I'd really appreciate it if you all would stop treating it like I'm some dude who just worships every single god that someone tells me to worship.
If you all cannot see beyond that, then I'd rather talk my fellow cadets in Civil Air Patrol where they will respect me even if I believe in this "God who wasn't there".
But that's just it. The Christian perspective of the world is just that. That humans are fallen. It is the Christian belief that we as humans are inclined to do whatever feels good and persue it as long as we enjoy it and then move on. Much like followers of Bacchus would drink to get buzzed and considered it "communing with the god Bacchus".
Before you go out and claim that there is no God or gods. Why not try and figure out what it is that we believe. You've (the lot of you) have shown your ignorance to the belief that I cling to.
All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. - Matthew 10:22
We are ignorant? HEY EVERYONE WE ARE IGNORANT. We cant read what he writes.
Nope, not ignorant at all. I read what you wrote, never said you couldnt beleive it as a human right, you simply dont like my assesment of what you wrote. Maybe you should examine what you claim and actually read what you write before you call us ignorant.
You believe in a made up fictional being. I cant help you excape that to which you cling, unless you want us to help you. You simply wont get us to buy what you are selling unless you provide evidence. So far you havent done that. You cant do that because their is no rational defense to cling to believing fiction as fact.
Funny you should mention him. Also known as Dyonisus(sp) a deity who died on a cross 500 or so years before the myth of Jesus.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Interesting. You'll perhaps be able to view things from my perspective then, though in a slightly different light. I was never a theist. Though my parents are to an extent, they weren't forceful about it at all. They allowed me to come to my own conclusions. The only thing even remotely religious about me is that I did recieve a baptism as a baby. My parents were subjected to pascals wager and took the cautious roads "Why take the chance" kind of attitude in youth. Though should I have children I'll not be giving them one myself.
A sword and gun are no saviour of something ethereal like a soul. You've been taught to believe in the soul, and it's reception of the consequences of actions taken on earth.
But if the child irrationally refuses to take your words that santa doesn't exist, even with corresponding evidence, then what do you do? What do you say to an adult who believes in santa? Most people laugh, and they shouldn't(even I am guilty of it at times, though usually in response to attack). But it happens.
In order for people to see past things, they must understand them. And so I would ask why you believe in this instead of another religion, or no religion. Not who, or how, or when, or where, but why.
This however brings into question the basic overriding morality contradictions of your god in the first place. How can it be good to create a species that is inherrantly evil, that enjoys evil? And how can it be good to judge said species on it's at best limitted awareness on what is good when it is inherrantly evil? How can it follow that it is good to punish those who rationally refuse to follow what appears to be evil by it's own merits? The fact of the matter is that if there is a god, and it is truly good by it's own merits, then it would not punish those who disbelieve in him when he doesn't give proof of his existance. And he could not punish those who break his rules when they don't know his rules. Or don't believe he made them, when he doesn't prove he exists. So either your god wouldn't have created us if he was truly good, or wouldn't judge us as christianity says he does.
I am ignorant to belief in a god, because I've never experienced it first hand. I can only comment on observations of those who claim to believe in a god. So let me put the words to reverse, before you claim that there is a god, why not try and understand why I don't believe in it? I always try to understand the side I'm arguing against. It's the best way to discredit it or to credit it.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
You know Waterwalkerguy, I'm wondering if you know about the context of the phrase, 'judge not lest ye be judged'? I alluded to it in a previous post but it probably went over your head. In the Judaic religion to put yourself on the level of god was the equivalent of blasphemy. By concluding that Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons weren't worthy in sharing in the Kingdom of Heaven you usurped the position of God and laid down a divine judgement. Fundies often have this god complex where they believe that what they say is scripture and/or divine revelation. So are you here to tell us that you have been sent by God to render judgement upon mankind, a position, as revealed by scripture, is reserved for God alone?
It appears why have God almighty here on the forums, or at least a charlatan blasphemer who has just performed the unforgivable sin. Welcome to hell, where the rest of us unbelievers are destined to go according to your religion.
Thank you, Vastet. I feel like someone is actually giving me a fair chance at discussing and redirecting the focus of this entire argument. Thank you.
D-cubed, have you read the Bible? Have you read the Latter-Day Saints Book of Mormon: Another Testatment of Jesus Christ? Have you read even done as much as read the Torah?
You claim to know all these things about a faith you don't even have. Was faith shoved down your throat? Did the priest force you to study the Bible? What credibility do you have to establish anything you say? Who are you to be telling me that I am condemned for what I said?
If you're into sayings, I have one for you that is relatively speaking; "He who lives in a glass house should not throw stones."
All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. - Matthew 10:22
In as far as the original post goes, I would like to challenge your assertation that all of the Atheists you have met were of the flawed personality traits you provided.
I would suggest that you have met many very nice Atheists...perhaps in your own church. Atheists do not all spew vile for everything religious and nor should they. Atheism is not anti-religion. Not at all. We are not anti-santa or anti-satan. We just don't think those things exist. I don't think that Allah, Jehovah or Buddha exists in the context most often used, either. I am not against them..I don't hate them and I don't hate people who believe in them.
I hate to use the Flying Spaghetti Monster argument again, but it seems an easy comparison. I cannot prove or disprove the existance of the FSM as the creator of all. I reject it, as I am sure you do, as ...well...silly. Now please hold the thoughts and feelings you get from that rejection. They don't really stir much in you, do they? No..of course not. Because the idea is silly. Now simply allow yourself to imagine how I feel the exact same thing about your God as you do the FSM. The fact that more people belive in your God than in the FSM is irrelevant. Almost everyone believed the earth was flat at one point. The popularity of a belief not make it true.
So let's take it a step further now. Atheists are not filled with 'distasteful hatred and anger'. I'm sure one or more of the ones you met were, but I have met Christians who are the same way...many,many Christians. Just because I think people like Pat Robertson are biggoted douchebags, doesn't mean that I think all Christians are...nor would it be logical for me to think that way.
To me a true Atheist has no qualms with your relgion. He should not attempt to 'preach' his view points unless asked or incited. He should not judge you on your faith, nor should you on his.
You will tend to remember a poor experience with an Atheist over positive ones. It is human nature. Just like a child can have a loving dog his whole life, but if one dog bites him, he may become terrified of all dogs for life. We are programmed to remember bad experiences over good ones. It is an evolutionary development. Sorry..didn't mean to bring evolution into it.
Anyway, I want to go back to my first point. There are many more Atheists in the world than you know. Some go to church..but most likely do not. Those that do are likely terrified to admit their true beliefs and in so much of the world, it is not hard to understand why.
Imagine being a brilliant politician and being an Atheist. Could you ever admit it? Even though this person may have answers to so many of our great problems, America would reject him. They would rather a hypocrite than an Atheist. Athesits, according to polls, are the least trusted people in society. The irony abounds. Atheists have little to lie about. Our moral fibre is encoded into us through experience and empathy, not by dictate. Atheists have a much greater appreciation for life. We believe that this is all there is...you better live it well. We also know that since there is no afterlife, taking another persons life is the most vile thing you can do. We establish our morality based on how we want the world to treat us not on what we are told we should approve of or disapprove of. To me there is much greater conviction on the part of an Atheist. He holds to his own beliefs, which is much stronger than holding on to someone elses.
There are idiots in every group, community and family. We must all smile and try to ignore the idiots, which is difficult. They often speak the loudest and claim to speak for everyone. I don't want or desire any spokesperson. If you want to know about all Atheists, you'll have to ask all the Atheists. Your friend may be a nimrod, but it is not his Atheism that makes him that way.
If your beliefs bring you happiness and peace, then please stick with them. If you feel there may be questions (which is why I suspect you are here) then allow yourself the freedom to explore those questions. Any belief worth having can stand up to any scrutiny that I or any more gifted orator can throw at them. Be happy with what you have and who you are and allow others the same courtesy. Isn't that what Jesus teaches you?
That would be a yes to your reading list, as well as some other scripture including the books that were taken out of the Bible and some Eastern religions. I can read fiction without having to believe in it.
Now before you try to get me with your hypocrisy try keeping in mind you are the one who disparaged the faith of millions of JWs and Mormons and proclaimed yourself to be Christ. If I start to do something like that then sure, I'll be throwing stones in a glass house. I'm just perplexed how you can demostrate so much hatred yet be absolutely shocked when people don't like you. Do you have a problem with narcissism?
Woah woah, books taken out of the Bible? Uh, the only one who took books out of the Bible was Martin Luther. All other false gospels are just that: false.
And it just occured to me. How can you argue about my faith when Christians, especially protestants like myself, are so sporatic in their beliefs?
All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. - Matthew 10:22
Interestingly enough, that very sporadicness is an argument in and of itself.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
Walkonwater wrote:
Walkonwater wrote:
Walkonwater said:
Hukum and hogwash.
Ever "hang-ten" on the bow of a nuclear powered aircraft carrier at 30+ knots?
The Ethiopian Bible contains 81 books while the Protestant contains only 66. So aren't you just working off of God's incomplete word. Besides, that, how did you determine they were false gospels since you've never actually read them?
Heh... This is becoming really pathetic.
Catholics, can be dead; it depends on what they believe. Some Catholics don't take all the dogma of the Church and others take it all so very seriously. And some go to church every sunday and think that's enough to be saved.
Look as for those who are dead to the body of Christ. They're are probably people in my very own church who are dead.
Oh and uh, by the way, it's Christian, not xian.
God is an all powerful God. But we are not. We have His book, but our heads. And those who live in the flesh or in sin will read His book the way they want to so that they can continue to live in sin.
Ethopian Bible? So all Ethopians read this Bible? Or is it just more commonly found in Ethopia? I actually have never heard of it. I've heard of the Gospel of Thomas, the Gospel of Judas, the Gospel of Mary, and a couple others. And then there is the books which were taken out by Martin Luther. All of which contradict the true Bible.
All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. - Matthew 10:22
So it looks like what this comes down to is this: Only people that believe exactly as you believe are not dead.
By the way, it's quite common on these forums to use xian instead of your word, even in the Kill 'Em With Kindness thread.
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Xian:
Etymology
From Χ, the first letter of Greek Χριστος (Christ).
Xianity: The spelling Xianity was in use by the 16th century.
American Psychological Association (APA):
xtian. (n.d.). Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1). Retrieved January 13, 2007, from Dictionary.com website: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/xtianModern Language Association (MLA):
"xtian." Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1). Random House, Inc. 13 Jan. 2007. <Dictionary.com http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/xtian>Chicago Manual Style (CMS):
xtian. Dictionary.com. Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1). Random House, Inc. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/xtian (accessed: January 13, 2007).You neglected to answer the other questions in my post.
WalkonWater said:
Ever "hang-ten" on the bow of a nuclear powered aircraft carrier at 30+ knots?
ALERT: We've got a possible rational one here. Inform his curiousity. Seems well educated. Open to new ideas. Proceed with caution and compassion!
Glad to have you here WalkOnWater. You seem to have a better-then-average sense of the world around you. Be careful though, hang around here long enough and you might become atheist!
The Enlightenment wounded the beast, but the killing blow has yet to land...
Why don't you just come out and say everyone who you don't like, or you don't understand are going to burn in that eternal hell that your loving god created? You are one of the biggest bigots I've met. No wonder people don't like you. You don't even know what the The Coptic Orthodox Church of Alexandria is but you've already dismissed it as false although it's much more ancient that that splinter protestant church you belong to. Heck, you don't even know the shortened word for Christian and view it as a slut. Perhaps you wouldn't be more hatefilled towards everyone if you actually took the effort to know a little more about them.
I hate to burst your bubble, but one of my passions for the body of Christ is to unite them.
The problem with the body of Christ as it is is that we're focusing on other people's problems and trying to fix something that isn't broken. Instead we should be looking at our own hearts and repenting of sins that we've been neglecting. Pharisees had this very problem and Jesus pointed it out when he mentioned something to the effect of "worry about the pillar in your own eye before to take the speck out of mine."
Christians who allow themselves to be caught up in traditions of church and do not focus on salvation and a walk with Christ are dead. It's becoming more and more difficult to find churches that are not "dead" because they're becoming more "seeker-friendly". They compremise in order to have bigger numbers so that the darn collection plates are full. I say, forget about the collection plates, we can have church in the grass if we can't pay for the bills.
All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. - Matthew 10:22
Walkonwater, you are the biggest hypocrite. You only seek to spread division and hatred. If I go around and say something like, "All Black people are lazy worthless niggers but all I want to do is unite them and make them part of White civilized society," would I be seen as a racist or a really good guy? Your bullshit might work with your sheeple but any thinking person can see you for who you really are.
No, no... I think it you who have behaved hypocritically. This is supposed to be rational responders forums, right? And this is the "Kill them with kindness" forum, is it not? And you have not displayed any rude or vulgar behavior until now. Why?
By posting in this forum you agreed to the terms and agreements. I've done nothing but show all of the ignorance to the way Christianity. You might not like it that my God would reject those who don't fit His quota, but what more can He do when He's already sent His son to die on the cross and then sent His spirit after... Not much He can do when they still refuse to listen.
See, now you've resorted to Ad Hominem or "to the man" attacks which in Rhetoric are considered a below-the-belt type of thing to do. It's really shallow and basically says that you have nothing to contribute to this discussion. Mr. D-Cubed, I think you and I are finished.
I apologize if I ever said something that made you feel like I was trying to be better than you. But I honestly don't find any weight in your argument, maybe you don't find any in mine either; I don't care. What's important is that you've given up your "nice" act and shown your true colors. That's what get's under my skin. I think I've about had it here, maybe I'll pop in from time to time to watch another poor Christian who's so arrogant about his faith come and get torn apart by the dogs of this forum...
But those who have shown me kindness, understanding, and all such necessary things; thank you, without people like you Atheism would be another group of angry secularists who have an irrational hatred towards any established religion.
All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. - Matthew 10:22
Insult? Or not? You decide.
If someone breaks the rules of the forum with ad hominem, it does not invalidate the rules of the forum.
What about contradictions within this "true Bible"?
http://www.rationalresponders.com/forums/rook_hawkins/biblical_errancy/a_small_compilation_of_contradictions
Perhaps you should head over the the biblical errancy forum to defend that one.
-Triften
Nice bit of projection there but every post of yours has seethed with hatred. What about your 'do unto others' belief? You want to hate but you just feel shocked when your hatred gets turned upon yourself. You have denigrated every other Christian who doesn't believe as you do and taken it upon yourself to crown yourself as God to cast judgement upon billions of others and send them to an eternity in hell.
Mean ol' atheists! They ask questions and expect answers! Bad, bad atheists! I'll run away and never come back! That'll show'em!
Look WalkonWater you came in looking for a fight and ran when you found one. I think your faith is very weak. Stick around and give us some answers. You'll never convert anyone with such poor debating skills.
Ever "hang-ten" on the bow of a nuclear powered aircraft carrier at 30+ knots?
Glad to see that we agree. I'm simply done. Obviously I can't seem to say anything without it being interpreted as hateful or cruel.
Bah! Inside the house there is air conditioning!
I'm not here to convert anyone. I'm not even here to prove that my belief in God is rational. In fact, I proved that this; this very "kill 'em with kindness" seems to be nothing more than a hoax to lure a weak Christian/theist into debate and then to be torn apart by the bloodhounds of your group.
To express my views is impossible. I'm speaking Greek to Cambodians. It's impossible. My views may not bigoted, but tell me; does what I believe automatically mean that I hate anyone who doesn't believe what I do? Someone who is dead to the body of Christ is someone who I'm commanded and have a duty to love. But I guess that's one concept that's too difficult to grasp. I apologize that I came across as a bigot who hates everyone who doesn't see my narrow minded neo-Christan beliefs. And also, xian, is a bastardized form; at least to me, of what I am. Without the word Christ in there, it simply doesn't have the same meaning to most.
All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. - Matthew 10:22
Just for my own two cents, I think that much of this topic got started off on the wrong foot through misinterpretation. I'm glad that despite this you have learned that not all atheists are pricks out for your blood. So something constructive did happen at least.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.