Why would he want to play this game? This type of faith, believing in something without reason, is frowned upon in all other circumstances. Why would what is supposed to be a savior want for us to believe without reason? It seems senseless and arbitrary to just decide that faith is important in this one circumstance when it is otherwise useless in our day to day lives. What gives Jesus?

I often feel that way when I read Tom Robbins, or Virginia Hamilton Adair, or even Brian Greene, but I'm not going to try and pass discriminatory laws, or take a way someones right to choose, or condemn those who don't like Tom Robbins because the book might tell me to. This is what Christians do when they try to criminalize abortion, or oppose gay marriage, preach to others that they are going to hell.

I hate god the way I hate Hannibal Lecter. I know he's not real, but as a fictional character, he sure isn't a very nice guy and is plenty deserving of any hate he recieves. He killed every first born baby in Egypt for crying out loud, not to mention turning newborns into blue bobbers with that whole flood thing. Who could like a character like that?

Religion is useless. It is only necessary to reach goals which are detrimental to a stable and peaceful society and therefor all should work towards abolishing it.

Its followers sure make their presence known in this physical world and that is why the whole silly myth needs to be put to rest.

Never been religious so no one needed to turn me. My parents are great. I'm well educated, have a great family. Life couldn't be better except to get rid of that ridiculous religion crap that seems to drive a wedge between otherwise good intelligent people.

No such thing as heaven. Who would even want there to be? If you seriously consider it, it doesn't sound all that appealing. I'm not wanting to die or anything, but eternity? Well, it just seems a little too long to me.

My opinion of god is that he's a fictional character, and an ill defined one at that. I do not base this on Christians, but on reason.

No argument there.

Thank you. Life, what is your purpose? To be lived and to be enjoyed, you say? Cool. I can sure do that.

I have a right, no, I have a duty to protest that which I think is bad for society. Religion falls under that heading.

I hope that one day you will learn to let go of religion and live as a rational man. Then we can truly start to build a better tomorrow.

)

 

when i was a child, about 12 years old i remember my sister coming home with this story.  she talked of a man who words melted her heart, someone who showed her light in a life that had gone sour.

 being at my young age i laughted at her, mocked her and this man.  calming him to be blind and ignorant.  her face grew long and she was disappointed to be meet with sarcasim.  then the funniest part was she told me that there was this guy who wanted my soul.

 i remember the look in her eyes, one moment before she was about to get angry like she always did... this calmness came across her.  she smiled and asked if we would go with her one day, we just muttered yeah right.

 as time passed me and my sister got to talk alone about what had happend.  she had changed so much.  she was happier than i have ever seen her and she talked with so much passion.  i never thought that such a mousy person would have such a drive for something.  finally after swallowing my pride i decided to go with her.

 this old man was preaching and he jumped around on the stage like a crazy person.  people were jumping up and yellin amen!  i was timid and felt very uneasy.  as he talk i kept feeling this weight on my heart.  he asked if anyone would like to come up... i just choked down the feeling and shrugged it off.

a few days later, i was still thinking of this strange man talking about things i have never heard.  part of me wished i had gone up to the alter and prayed with them, but the other part of me didn't want to commit to such wacko's.

 on the third day as i was sleeping on the couch this disturbing dream came to me.  war was all around, people were dying and i was running from all the fighting.  the more i tried to escape the more i became entangled, there was no where to hide.  i felt a knock on my head and i fell to the ground.

 there was a bunch of people laying on the ground.. lined up, side by side.  i couldn't move.  some of the people where struggling.  then i noticed this silver water like substance flowing towards us and over our eyes.  one by one it took each man, as it touched him, he yelled out in pain.

 at the time it came to me suddendly i was scoped up by this man in a white robe riding a white horse.  i didn't look at his face, i felt unworthy, but he craddled me like a child.  i still remember the smell, something i couldn't explain but it brought so much peace to my heart.  when he layed me down i was standing in clouds.  i tried to look at him by the light was so bright i could barely see anything.

 at that time looking up at my Savior, i knew what i had to do.  he told me of peace, love and kindess in a quick blow of the wind. and then i woke up a changed man.

 

tell me, there has to be a time in your life that you have had faith in something?  a blind belief that something you are doing will work?

If faith is belief without evidence, then no knowledge is _for_ faith. If a gain in knowledge provides evidence against something taken on faith, then that provides evidence that something originally taken on faith is not true. If, on the other hand, knowledge gained provides evidence for something, then that article is no longer a matter of faith since it now has evidence.

Religious faith is something that destroys curiosity and thinking.

There's no problem with having faith in something real, like a person or an object. This is a different kind of faith. There is evidence that a person or item can be trusted to fulfill a promise or behave as expected. And yes, I've had faith in myself. It's called confidence and I don't get it from any supernatural forces.

Every word of the bible moves you? To joy or sadness? Are you happy that Jesus came not with peace, but with a sword? How are you moved when bears are sent by god to kill children? Or when the followers of Jesus are told to smash babies on rocks? Have you stoned your disobedient children to death as commanded in Leviticus? (Keep in mind that Jesus said that not one bit of the old law is to be changed.)

I don't hate the God of the bible any more that I hate most murderers. I pity him. It's sad that a being such as god can be so jealous and insecure. This manifests itself primarily in bullying those smaller than him.

If god is perfect, then he must be logical, right?

(If you don't accept this, then you admit god is irrational and you've thrown away the logical thinking he has given you.)

If god is logical, then he can't be all-knowing, all-powerful, AND all-loving because and Epicurus first said this:

1. Is he willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
2. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
3. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
4. Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

Why would an all-loving creator want to do any harm to us for any reason? Especially if he could have created the world in such a way that nothing bad ever happened?

Also, how are we taking away people's opinions?

If you can look at evidence to the contrary of one of your beliefs and still hold it, I find that very frightening. If self-delusion is a virtue, I don't want to be right.

-Triften

You defined faith, in the your 1st post. Which is what?
sapphen said, "{Religious} Faith - is a belief, trust or confidence, not based on logic, reason or empirical dat{a}"

If you were not referring to religious faith, then your definition is incorrect. It is logical to have faith that the sun will appear tomorrow morning. It is logical to have faith that when you turn the key in your car ignition that your car will start.

Quite honestly, did you expect to post something like that on an Atheist and freethinker forum and we would all immediately fall to our knees and say that you must be right?

Be brave. Post a question or two in a thread and defend your belief. Or is your faith so weak that even hearing another viewpoint is scary?

 

So if we go to hell it's god's fault? Well have fun with your sadistic god.

Quite honestly, what did you expect with a story about silver water and a robed man on a white horse?  Unless there is evidence, it was probably a pretty good bet that posters on this forum wouldn't be moved.

We are not attacking you.  We are simply pointing out that a religious belief system doesn't make sense.  We are giving logical and rational reasons why it doesn't make sense.

If there were a god, would he need you to defend him?  Surely he could take care of it himself.

 

 

 

But he has a plan. Unless he doesn't mind diversion from it.

 But even that It's still up to him, he knows what it'll take for me to believe in him. He hasn't done so, and if he doesn't before I die, well all I can say is "He knew I wouldn't believe, it was all up to him."

 

okay.. i can't prove to you guys that there is a God. it is by faith that i know He is real.  asking for physical proof of a feeling is not rational.  it's like asking someone to prove that they are sad.  we are sayin look their are tears and you say it is raining and a drop has merely landed on your check. 

the story wasn't meant to move you as much as to tell you why i believe.  that was my proof.  i remember the smell and the feeling i had inside my heart.  i seen the change in my sister. no amount of logic could convience me that was not real.  logic deals with physical things, God is not physical he is spiritual.

LOL, the religious system doesn't make much sense to me either!  i work to understand it... but the motives of God are His and not for me to understand.  a lot of Christians wouldn't believe me if i told them what i believe to be true about God.  none of us have it right, we are just hanging onto the small concept that Jesus was real and He died for our sins so that we can be saved.

 God does not need defending but my right to say there is a God and He is present in my life does.

a child gettin cancer is a terrible thing.  maybe it is to make the parents stronger or the doctors more intelligent.  that child is a true maryter but it is not fair to blame God for his death.  my childhood girlfriend lost her sister to bone cancer.  it took a long time for their family to get over that loss but in the end they turned to God. a terrible thing like that is for the friends and family to work thru, and it is our job as Christains to be there for them, to help them.

 how many atheis have child funds for childern with cancer?  i know that there is christain centers dedicated to helping these childern.

Ophios, God does hear you.  if you have a want from Him drop to your knees and take it to Him in prayer.  if you ever were saved He will hear you and i will pray that He gives you what you are seeking.  open your eyes, your heart and your senses for what you seek to find is right infront of you... Jesus is knocking on the door of you heart man, just give Him a chance. 

your dreams are very interesting, they say a lot to me.  i myself have had quite of few dreams of a large beast chasing me thru the woods.  i had the dream of this beast about a week before my unborn child was lost.  i tried to fight him but i had no weapon.  he beat me to a pulp.  then he disappeared.  when i got back to my feet he was there with blood on his hands and he told me that it was done. i can remember the helplessness i felt as i looked into his tiny red eyes.

 i can not argue with your logic.  i personally like logic and i feel like i am fairly intelligent.  but there is no logic to God, He just is.  He is because He said He is. i mean we have nothing to bring to the table but a bible and that is not true in your eyes.  the truth is, i can't prove God exsits to you as much as you can't prove he doesn't to me.  what word would define that?  we know air is real, we can't see it, but we feel it and breath it.  i know God is real because i can feel Him and breath Him.

one thing that really convenced me of God's presents is when i was exploring new age materials.  when you are alone, do you really think you are the only one in the room.  how would u see something unseen to the eyes?  no logic could tell you that.  you have never had an out of body experience?  or a dream that just seemed a little bit off. 

 Jesus gave us new laws to follow.  i dunno, maybe you have a verse that says Jesus wants to eat disobedient childern, but does that really sound right?  i don't care how you rework or state the verse, Jesus Christ does not want you to murder babies, that would not be logical.

i don't assume that atheis give or don't give.  a childs death is a shocking thing to debate over.  God is not a murder of childern and just because there are somethings that we can't understand, that is reason to call Him murder.  how does childern die of cancer in your world?  why can't the same be said in our world with God present?  just because he can control all doesn't mean He has to, that would be a totally different world.  is it reasonable that a group of people are trying to convience Christains that there is no God and He likes killing babies?

God has made a world that he controls, it is called heaven.  i feel like we all have long separated from God, we are all so far away we have even separated from ourselfs.  humans can be very powerful, supernatural even but our logic holds us back.  it is in the face of defeat or utter despiration that you will see that kind of faith, mankind prevailing over impossible odds.  we have the power we just choose to ignor it.

the US constitution is an example of faith.  these religious men had faith that they would win and set us free.  God was in them and thereforth God was put into our constitution.  i can't argue with you the fear i have of the things being done in God's name today.  i would almost understand why people think christains are out of date by the actions of churches, leaders and powers to be.  greed and power can be a very scary thing that even christians are not immune to. a world without religion would not stop that.

So you can not find one good teaching of Jesus in the bible?  just for fun and off the top of your head, what is one good thing that Jesus has taught... a principle that He has shown us.  certainly someone who can quote the bible so freely can give one account of His goodness.

 

 

you make me smile when i read this.  you put a lot of effort into it, but i don't think you understand.  God is not physical, God is beyond logic.  just like we don't fully understand time and/or really prove it's exsistance, we know it is there.

God is much more than a feeling.  He invokes a feeling.  you all are absurd if you believe mankind has discovered all the aspects of this world and it's mysteries. you can't solve a problem if you don't have all the pieces to the puzzle.  it's like doing a math problem without the numbers 7, 8 and 9.  we as a people are still learning and going beyond our previous knowledge.  have you thought that maybe prehaps something exsists beyond our current logic.

speaking of which, there are some theroies that gravity lies in another dimension.  would u care to prove or disprove that.  what else is in that dimension?

we have two sides of our brains, one uses logic and the other is intuitive.  you say that we limit our knowledge yet you guys are strickly focusing on the left side of the brain.  one day you will see wisdom replaces logic, and only by using all the wonderful aspects of your mind would u see the truth.

i feel God in my soul like gravity feels a falling stone.   God moves other people.  that is one way that He works his miracles.  i am asking you to look beyond logic because it does not hold the key to this world and things yet to be discovered.  faith is the root of discovery because discovery is the manifestation of proof.

Thomas Jefferson, as discussed elsewhere on this site, was not an atheist, but a deist. Quoting the site you linked, "Although Jefferson believed in a Creator, his concept of it resembled that of the god of deism (the term "Nature's God" used by deists of the time)." And, in Jefferson's own words (also on that site), "I can never join Calvin in addressing his god. He was indeed an Atheist, which I can never be..."

While Jefferson was no Christian, he was neither an atheist as well.

Indeed. If 'he' works causally at all, he enters the causal chain, and becomes natural.

Furthemore, such thinking undermines the entire suppposed point of the 'god hypothesis' - i.e. a solution for an infinite series of causes....

 

 

Yes, logic applies to referents, to words. I'm just happy to note this because it's a common error for some to suppose that logic applies to things.

Yep.

 I don't know about  him, but it seems familiar to me. 

Richard Dawkins....

 

todangst, we have crossed mountians since my first post...  also keep in mind that i may not be able to keep up with you for i am not a master debater such as yourself.  you may have to talk to me in layman's terms for me to understand fully your points.

thank you for joining our converstion  

my friend i am not presenting to you arguements, simply the truth. we don't have the answers. you think science is discovering new facts but they are merely discovering what was already created.

i know nothing of your theories yet i still stand here to post. not knowing is the beginning of understanding. the truth is hidden and some truths may never be known.

i'm not going to say anything here that someone else more wiser than myself has already said. my proof of God is in my heart and to you that makes me feebleminded, but to me it sets me free. where i see a God of love you see a worthless void.

i have a thoery. i believe our planet exsists inside an atom. the universe is contained within itself. so if one was to maginfy an atom close enough they would find another universe and if we where able back out far enough we would see that we are merely one of many making up a larger mass.

lets just say that this large mass is God. so infact God is everywhere, we are living on Him and He is living in us at the same time. how could one disprove my theory? it is nothing more than an idea and the truth of it is unknown. there could be faith in it's belief and we are currently living on the proof but until we can discover a method to back out far enough we would never know.

This far past, I don't know. I did rather well in my humanities classes in college, so I'm sure I could scrape together something to write a term paper on. In the dream, I think I was the keeper of the blade and the part of the knight was played by a friend from high school, Nick. I think near the time of that dream, he had dropped by for a visit (from several states away.) Either way, I'm fairly certain I could write at least 3 different analyses of my dream.

To me, saying that we can loose ourselves in logic is akin to saying "we can think too much" and, while I know one can get lost in thinking without acting, I believe that not thinking is the greatest sin of all.

That's another problem, thinking requires being unsure about one's answers and being willing to be wrong, while religion offers "answers" and "Truth" which, to me, are a poisonous fruit, because they replace thought and curiosity with dogma. I spent a lot of my teenage years "shopping" for a religion, going to church services with friends, wondering what I was missing. I realized what I was missing was a want for easy answers. So many around me were so scared and nervous about life, they wanted something, anything, that they could feel was the "Truth".

I do. I judge individuals by their actions. I think you may be a kind-hearted person even without god.

What sets me free, is the idea that we are here to explore and find our own meanings for life, independent of commandments and the approval of any god.

-Triften

I aim to please!


Remember what I said about logic?
Anything we can describe in language is bound by logic.
Anything you say is bound by logic, if it is to mean anything at all.
If God is beyond logic then all your words about him are meaningless.
A bit like "asjfldajgl ouhsglija idhglaihgd" or "carrot green try" is.

1) You have the experience/feeling but what makes you think that it had to have a cause from the outside world? How internal psychology has just as many mysteries as, if not more than, the outside world.

2) You talk of God causing something. If God causes things then 'he' is a natural being. It might be one of natures mysteries that we are yet to discover but natural all the same. This

Dimension is a mathematical concept.
We describe space in 3 dimensions and give time a fourth dimension.
However, the mathematical descriptions of what happens in time and space are complex and we might require extra variables, i.e. extra dimensions in order to describe it correctly. So these aren't other dimensions as in other 'places', just extra variables we need in order to describe the universe correctly.

Our intuition also uses logic. It is much more efficient than our conscious logic and deals with problems a lot quicker. (after all, we have too many decisions to make in the real world to work them all out mathematically!)
The downside is that it sometimes makes mistakes and misleads us so we need to use more reliable logical methods to correct it.

Remember, logic applies to anything that described in language so anything your intuition tells you that you can describe in language is subject to logic.

Lol! I probably learnt half of it from you in the first place!

there is power in words.  i would be lying if i said i complete agree with your concludion.  words are also art such as abstract poetry which envokes feelings without a direct point or symbolic logic if you will.

this time i would have to question the value of logic and would have to claim it is in the eye of the beholder.  God is beyond logic in the fact that he can not be logically defined.  aspects of Him can be but not the entirety.  He exsists in the rational and irrational.

as a boy i studied okinawa kenpo karate kobudo for about a year and thought i knew it all.  i have already learned discpline and repeation and was ready to fight the world.

one day after school i confronted a bully.  being over confient i insulted him and told him he couldn't beat me up anyway because i would block everything he threw at me.  as i turned to walk away that kid beat the tar outta me.  i mean i was crawling away and he was holding my shirt pulling me back.

after that moment i realized that my main objective was not to be the aggressor but the defender.  not only did i become the bully but i got beat up too. no matter how many competions i came second or third in (i got first once!), my pride defeated me.

i do not believe we can come to an ends with this conversation. while i do not agree with what you are saying i must bow down and back away. if logic and only define logical things.. i can not debate with logic like that.

all i can tell you is God is in my heart and what i have stated in my posts where given to me by God.  i welcome any other conversation or questions that you may have.

Yes. This is because the point in abstract poetry isn't supposed to be an accurate description of reality but to evoke feelings. Sometimes I think that poetry is deliberately illogical in order to evoke the feeling of confusion!

Logic and truth go hand in hand.
Value logic as much as you value truth.


If you are trying to describe reality using language then logic will apply. erhaps you will understand what I mean if I give you a better explanation of what logic is?

Law of identity: If A is true and B is A then B is true.
This should be common sense if you understand the word 'is'.

Law of non-contradiction: A cannot be both true and not true.
Again, if you understand the words 'not' & 'and' this ought to make perfect sense. If I say something is illogical then it has broken one of these rules. That means rules of language have been broken. What meaning can a sentence have if it is not using words correctly?  

I have a right to live without interference from people who believe in fairy tales. I have a right to not have your false religion forced upon me. Until you and all those like you lay down your arms in the war of belief, I will never lay down mine.

Your faith itself forces itself upon me, as do most others. I can point in 50 different directions and find ways your faith or anothers faith is forced on me. From the calendar to aggressive advertising to door to door salesmen.

Ah, but it is a war. For a long time I didn't want to believe it, and many others out there cling to that same false hope. But it is a war all the same. A war I am forced to either participate in or submit to. The fact that you are even here shows you too participate in the war to some extent.

Any aggression in my comments are in response to aggression in yours. If I go to a theist site and start arguing atheism, I'm being aggressive. A theist coming to an atheist site to argue their religion is also being aggressive. Your following comments are further proof of your aggression.

Quite the opposite. Though my parents are theists to some extent, they never forced their beliefs on me.

Yes to the first and no to the second. Though if it were ten years ago I'd be holding the same position and be in my teens and living at home. 20 years ago would see no difference from 10, though my arguments would have lost some of their power through my ignorance. Ten years from now I'll be in my late 30's and arguing the same, with more knowledge than I have now. I might live with a parent then, though I highly doubt it. Either way, I would argue the same. Don't try and stereo-type me. It won't work.

Heh. Technically you could argue that god put weed on earth for you to smoke. Bible says so.

Tsk tsk. Rule #1: Don't get caught. Rule #2: Don't get addicted. The breaking of rule #2 almost always leads to the breaking of rule #1.

Kind of depends on how far you let yourself go. You don't need drugs to self destruct. They can merely accelerate the process.

I view them both as natural, though I feel one is far more detremental to society than the other.

Yeah, I think we've strayed from the topic.

I'm sure it is. And I have absolutely no problem with your beliefs. If the day ever comes that people keep their beliefs to themselves I will be able to relax. There's a lot of changes that need to happen first though.

I have no problem conversing with people, be they theists or not. I have many friends who are theists. It's rather hard not to.

Good for you. My goal is to insure the rest of theism adopts a similar philosophy. Just with an extra step.

Maybe. If god is real, he's hidden it pretty well so far.

I think the term there is a bit mistaken. Noone really discovered gravity, someone just came up with a mathematical equation that explained it.

True.

I was rather open to the concept for quite awhile, I just never actually believed it. It never chose to show itself to me in any capacity. And the more I learned, the more improbable and impossible the concept became.

I'd rather you did something useful, like read a book on science. You need it.

Ah shit. I didn't mean to chase you away.
Well, best of luck I suppose. And I'm glad we were able to help you with something, even if it wasn't something we were trying to do.