for once there is a person wanting a discussion without the crap. granted ill give the answers, these are the questions that i find truely important.
taking into all of your stipulations:

i do believe God is loving. Why? Through all of the times that i have been in a place where i was nearing death, and nearing the place in my thoughts where i was willing to commit suicide, no person was able to help me. it took me falling onto my face and crying out to God. I was given a comfort i wasnt able to find anywhere else. I could feel his presence and love.

Omnipresent/omnipotent/and omniscient? yes Why? because no matter where i go, what i do, i still feel Him there. and not only myself, but everyone else who truely believes. He is there for all, not just me. Hope that ansewers all three.

believe in prayer? very much so. i have seen and been apart of the power of prayer. my looking into is just as this: God has responded to the prayers i have given. Best example would be with the ministry that God has shown to me, to be mine. i have asked to know more about it, and i do. God has also given the beginnings of this ministry in my own church. i know the name, generality of place, and the doors to open it. i have the contacts to help me when that day comes, that i truely believe He placed in my life for that reason.

And infallible, yes. thing is, if he created me, and created the heavens, and everything else, he designed it all. he created it that way, therefore, no imperfections, and no blemishes. infallible.

Hope that helps. but now i have a question or two.

I would like you to answer your own if you would, and then these:

Do you believe in alternate life, i.e. aliens?
What made you disbelieve in a God, not necesarilly the Christian God?

This seems like it will be a good thread, and im interested in seeing all that you have to say. feel free to ask anything. im an open book. and like the whole suicide things, ill tell you anything you want, just ask. i want my mistakes to be someone elses saving graces.

I.mcbryar.

I can only give a quick response now as I have to go out, i'm already late.  (funnily enough i'm going to my home church although i'm not a christian)

I say not a christian because the evangelicals who I hang out with would never describe me as such although like most people my principle form of religious expression is based on the christian tradition, ie christmas etc.

My own theism is just that, my own.  Meaning that I base my views on god etc on reasoning.  I have a subtle belief in certain revalations (my definition of religion) but my theism is principally philosophical I would say.

I am quite attracted to the vedic scriptures and krsna conciousness.  Some of my views are rooted here, hence the picture of krsna and radha (his consort) to the left.

You are right about love though.  Love can be one way.  I agree with you then.  But my view is that the nature of our sinful position has something profound to do with who we actually are!!  The nature of existance itself.  So saying that God loves us for me tends to muddy the water.  I choose the word compassionate because it is more neutral.  I may need to elaborate on this I feel, but not now as I have to go out. 

If by that you mean a place of eternal torment or punishment where souls go if they do not accept Jesus or whatever, then NO I don't believe in hell. 

LOL

I suppose this question must really be answered by first explaining why god is habitually referred to as male. It is not so much the case that god is male but rather that which we call male, the form and function and various qualities, is the personification of the impersonal spirit. The impersonal spirit is god, but in his transcendent mode. When the transcendent impersonal spirit is made manifest, or personified, along with his home and friends and hobbies etc, then this is god proper so to speak, the fully revealed spirit, yet at the same time, the image of the transcendent spirit. This image is male, or rather as stated, male is the quality of the spirit in personified form. The fully revealed godhead however does not simply include the personified god himself. Alone the spirit forever transcendent, or unmanifested. This is a paradox. How can something be existent in any meaningful way yet be above all things, time, space, form, mind etc. In other words, how does a transcendent being become manifest. The answer is that godhead consists of two aspects, both co-existent yet one primary, spirit itself, and the other secondary, the means of becoming. (or that which brings forth that which is, the material aspect of god). The material aspect is a function of the spiritual aspect of godhead. It ‘reflects’, so to speak, the unseen. Remember, this is not some arbitrary add-on, but an essential component of god himself. The fullness of godhead is therefore rendered by the personification of his spirit, and the personification of his means of becoming. Female is the personification of this material aspect, and female qualities are derived from this secondary aspect of godhead. One can call this personified form goddess.

In the Christian tradition we see this played out in the virgin birth. The invisible father (spirit) is made manifest in flesh (son) via the agency of the blessed virgin Mary. Mary is the name of Christ’s consort later on (certainly in gnostic texts), the same name suggesting a mythic connection with the blessed virgin.

The most perfect depiction of god then is when he is with his eternal goddess. The picture attached to my posts depicts this according to Vedic tradition as I like the picture. I think that western religion must rediscover the fullness of godhead and worship god by also honouring his goddess. Catholic virgin cults do this to a degree but do not fully realise her significance. This needs to be rectified in western religion along with other things if it is to survive and be a force for good. Western theism needs to be reconstructed according to a new model. This is the meaning of the name newmodeltheist.

newmodeltheist

i understand where you would go by saying the gen 1:26-27 verse being singular. but if i am not mistaken in the original greek, this scripture does mean multiple. and i must also ask this question to that in response: if god has a female consort, gf, or female counterpart, why would he use mary to have given birth to christ, the son of God?

Chelsea

definately think the responses are valid. i ask you though, where and what contradictions do you find? maybe i can do some more research to see what i find. and i also ask this, if you told someone working for you to do something and they didnt, would you punish them in some way? i would hope, for the sake of the company or otherwise it would be yes. but this is the same concept that God is using. it is punishment for not doing as it is commanded. A loving God would punish to show what is right and wrong just as you would to someone you love.

Hi I.mcbryar 

 Yes regarding the use of God (singular) and Us (plural).  Chuck Missler, a well respected American Bible scholar, refers to this as a divine grammatical error.  In other words a purposeful mistake if you know what I mean.  He regards this as evidence of the trinity but my own view is that is it evidence of the divine couple.  I think this because the image of god is described as male and female.  Much like 'man' is used to describe both men and mankind.  God here I think is used to denote god and godhead.

As for your other point, I hold to the view that much of scripture is mythologically true if not historically true.  But at any rate, if you don't hold to that then Christ's birth to Mary was in order to be clothed in earthly flesh rather than to be made manifest in his original heavenly form.  Same in principle but on a lower level so to speak.

Chelsea, I'm going to have to tweak your stipulations before I can continue.  I agree with stipulations 1, 2, and 4, but stipulation 3 is slightly problematic.  It is a stretch to assume that just because the beginning of the universe was caused by a creator that the first life on earth was "created".  I believe that life on earth (and elsewhere) probably evolved in the ways that scientists have observed.  In other words, I do not interpret the Genesis creation myth literally.  

I typically don't personally associate God with love.  I associate him more with fear, trembling, paradox, reverence, and sometimes even comfort.  I don't believe that God is loving to his creation in the same way that a mother is loving to her child.  I'm in my late 20's and I still keep in touch with my mother.  God on the other hand is distant and cruel by human standards.  But God is not a human, therefore I try not to hold him to any type of human standards - tempting as it may be. 

No, no, and no, respectively.  

God is not omniscient because the concept of "knowledge" is inherently human, and therefore cannot be applied to God.  The concept of knowledge presupposes an acquisition process in many cases, and if we apply this to God, we then have a God that learns, which is highly illogical, since he would be the source of all "knowledge", as we've come to know it.  While from our perspective God may seem to "know" everything, he really must transcend the very realm of knowledge itself in order to be himself.

Yes, but much less frequently than most christians would have you believe.  

To me, prayer and contemplation do not serve the purpose of pleasing God, getting God's "attention" (so to speak), or fulfilling some sort of cosmic quota.  I believe that prayer is, for the most part, the work of the believer on himself.  Does God ever listen and act?  I've never personally experienced an "answered prayer", but I'm okay with that.  Christian prayers are often reducible to amazon wish lists and wishful thinking anyway, and are typically wrought in a spirit of extreme narcissism and selfishness.  

So I've come to a point where I do not believe in "praying for things".  Sometimes I (selfishly) ask God for mental and emotional strength, but what I'm saying probably doesn't matter, it's the act of prostrating myself towards God that is beneficial to me, and me alone.  He never grants my wishes, though, and i'm fine with that.  

This is an extremely vague question, but I'll go ahead and take a stab at it.   

No, God is not infallible.  God is extremely fallible by human standards.  He makes no sense at all.  He is forever and right now, everywhere and nowhere, the author of both harmony and discord, love and hate, good and evil, and a host of other seemingly contradictory things.  If he were a human being, he would be put to death.  But I think that's the potential danger of embodying and humanizing the divine - we then begin to hold him to human standards.  

Christian, yes, but I must admit, the older I get the farther I find myself from traditional christianity.  I wouldn't be surprised if my path one day led me to agnosticism or atheism. 

newmodeltheist

Wow that is personal stuff, not quite sure I am so brave, kudos for that.
I can understand why such an experience would be convincing. Convincing for you. Unfortunately if I told you I had such an experience I would not expect you to merely take my word for it, though it would be very convincing to me. Do you feel it is possible that feeling could have come from something other than god?

i have thought on this many times. but i keep coming back to this one statement "what else could pull me from that place?"
Mentally i was ready to die. my only intent was death. therefore what else could have possible stopped me? ive found myself to not be afraid of death, doing some of the stupid things i have done, so that conclusion left my mind long ago.

I can see where that would lead you to believe that he is omnipresent, but not as much omnipotent or omniscient. For me if there is some sort of god omnipresent seems to be on of the more believable attributes he could have. Perhaps that is because for me it is easiest to think of a possible god as a sort of force, rather than a person.

i see why that would be a thought. and i dont really think that God is meant to be classified as human. not saying that is what you are saying, but just because it is how He is refered to. He may be something closer to that of a force, but i think He does have the attributes of a human. kinda contradictory? Hes not human, but making us in the image, Hed showed a glimpse of how we will precieve Him.

Clarification: you are saying god told you what your ministry was and how to accomplish it? Could you be more specific?

Prayer has always seemed one of the more unlikely things about Christianity. God will do what he is going to do, nothing I say will change it. Fulfillment of prayer always seemed like coincidence to me since there are so very many prayers that go unanswered. Prayer for enlightenment seems very like meditation to mean and I think enlightenment can come from within as well as without.

Sure on the first part. Simply, yes... sorta. Not that he gave me a mental handbook complete with map, but that a general idea was given. The primise on how it would look, who would be there, generally, and where it may be located. I know things and how that they will happen. I see them already beginning. Second part, it is meditation, and communication. we have to focus on God to hear Him. His voice is subtle, as seen with a very young samuel, and david, and also with Christ himself. I can give scripture if needed. I also believe enlightenment is different from God. I believe it is more of person freedom from thought and present feeling. Most people think im saying your just getting high. im not. i believe its almost another form of conscious. Like the subconscious, but you just have to want to "unlock it", for lack of a better term,

Infallibility is another trait I have had difficulty reconciling with the Christian god. Jesus’ sacrifice always seemed to be god’s way of changing his mind.

Not really. All throughout the Bible, in the old testiment, God gives commandments on sacrifice for the cleansing of sins. Christ came as the ultimate sacrifice so that all may be forgiven, reference to chelsea's comment on a loving God punishing the entirety of mankind. God, being all knowing, and in my views solely, saw one of two things: 1. that all of man kind would behave the same and therefore punished them or 2. the opportunity to show that only He can keep you from your own sins. Again, my personal thoughts.

jmm

I typically don't personally associate God with love. I associate him more with fear, trembling, paradox, reverence, and sometimes even comfort. I don't believe that God is loving to his creation in the same way that a mother is loving to her child. I'm in my late 20's and I still keep in touch with my mother. God on the other hand is distant and cruel by human standards. But God is not a human, therefore I try not to hold him to any type of human standards - tempting as it may be.

i have to disagree with you here. God is not one to cause fear. in the many places that God sends angels to deliver a message, or He himself spoke, the first thing usually said is fear not. i can understand the paradox, most people find God to be a paradox, as represented an innumerous amount of times on this site. Allah on the other hand is all of the things you described. That is in thier holy bookm dealing with muhammed.

ill speak on the others later as i have more time. i am curretnly leaving. i hope i could be of more help in the future.

I.mcbryar

just to avoid confusion, my name is atop one of your posts above.  this was not a conversation that I was having with you. regards. 

jmm, you've done something that a lot of theists never can, and for that, I think you ought to be very proud. I, too, was raised in a fundamentalist church, so I know how difficult it is to even question some of the church dogma.

A lot of people, myself included, still want to know why you still consider yourself a christian. Again drawing a parallel from my life, I did kind of the same thing you're doing. I became a quasi-agnostic-spiritual-something-or-other, and believed that there must be some kind of supernatural, but that it definitely wasn't the god the christians were portraying.

I tinkered around for a while with a kind of fluffy spiritualism, learned how to read tarot cards, and explored deism. By the way, learning Tarot cards took me a long way towards atheism, because once I learned how to do them, it became obvious that the cards are constructed in a way to make cold reading work hand in hand with the desires of the person getting a reading. Once I saw there was no supernatural part of that, it became easier to see the natural explanations for many other things that were supposedly evidence for the spiritual world's existence.

I don't want to burden you with my whole life story, but I will tell you one more thing. I have had three life changing experiences that were accompanied by a feeling of (forgive me) transcendent happiness. By leaps and bounds, the most profound was the exact moment that I realized that I am just an animal, and that my life is my own. I literally almost jumped out of my own skin I was so happy. To say that my life improved from there would be akin to saying that Bill Gates has a little extra spending cash.

Clearly you're not afraid to ask the hard questions. Just know that nearly every atheist here has been through the same thing, and obviously, we're quite happy having made the leap away from religion.

Chelsea
I do have a question though. While you were a "Christian," and i put it like that based on my belief, did you ever just try to let go of your own capabilities and rely on God? Why I am asking is because I was skeptical, for over a year. And it was not until I went to a convention with my youth group and actually decided I would quit thinking along the lines of myself and let this God prove himself. I know the Bible says not to test God, but I did it more as a reassurance. So, did you let God have a chance? A real chance?

It reminds me of Abraham and Lot. Lot in the old Hebrew means a veil. Until God removed Lot from Abraham's life, Abraham never really saw the promise in his life that God had for him. Did you let your own desires, as Abraham did with Lot, keep you from realizing these things? After a year of dealing with questions and just giving up on the lack of answers, I took a chance. It's one I would do all over again. I know no other thing. I do not see how feeling like you can just happen would make sense. I heard a great quote that I use today: " I just don't have the faith to believe in evolution and a chance appearance." I kinda changed it to my own version which only states Darwinism. I believe species change and work to better themselves, but I just can not believe in one creature becoming another, or that all animals came from one cell.

Let me pose another interesting question, or two really. Why is it that if there is so much evidence and lack of answers, that atheism is the fastest shrinking religion there is? This is coming from a national survey done by the government. I wonder this because it makes me think that this proof is not what people are finding necessary.

But more importantly, why is it that thousands of people are willing to give their lives to this God that they don't see, at once, with no regard for science, and then stay with it faithfully for the rest of their natural lives? What could cause that? ( I know, I asked a third, just came to me as I was going.) I would hope that you wouldn't say an emotional setting, or something based on emotions, because most of the time this happens in a place like a soccer stadium.

Thx

I suspect you need to read Hambydammit's post again.  The part about the Tarot cards, etc. is all in the past tense.  

Emotions can be drawn in any setting.  What is important is the state of the individual, not where they are.  If one is in a position of emotional need, desire, etc, then that experience can happen in many places.

Why do millions of people give their lives to Allah whom they don't see, at once, with no regard for science, and then stay with it faithfully for the rest of their natural lives?

Shaun 

i apologize to begin with. i read your post in a rush, seeing as i read it at school. i did miss the past tense portion. But i want to explain what i meant as you qouted. ill do my best.

i disagree with you saying that i quit thinking. realistically what i did was stop letting my personal fears, thoughts, and any other thing inhibite God from doing the things in my life He wanted. i let go of what i wanted and gave God the thing He wanted, me. There is a great book i am reading called Drawing Nearer. This book discusses the things we must do to draw nearer to God. There is a great example of what i was trying to say, that was brought up in this book. in the book of Samuel, God calls to the young Samuel 3 times before Samuel answers God. Samuel believed that his mentor was calling him. On the second calling, the mentor told Samuel to reply back and not to come back to see him. When Samuel did, God was able to become closer to Samuel and tell him that he would later judge Israel. Im the same way. I kinda ignored God, and didnt listen to what He had to say. I finally "amswered" and am now where i am today.

Wow. So much to respond to.

Who told you that what you wanted was bad? I'm not saying it wasn't, but this is a worthwhile question. Did you just know it was bad without being told? Why? My point is there are good, logical reasons for "bad" things being bad. You didn't need god to know that something wasn't going to get you very far in life, so why did you need god to stop doing it? Emotional crutches happen to everybody. It's just when you start calling it god, other people who happen to believe their emotional crutch is real and yours isn't start getting pissed. Why not just rely on your family and friends to hold you accountable. That's what all the atheists in the world do, and statistically, there is a much lower percentage of atheists in prison than theists. (In the U.S.... and I do mean percentage, not actual numbers.)

First, I don't know what horrible sin you committed, but if the sin made you feel guilty, then again, you didn't need god to feel guilty. You could just stop doing it on your own like all the other atheists in the world. Doing bad things that harm other people causes guilt because we are social animals, and damage to your reputation is extremely hard to live down. We know this, so we feel very bad when we screw up. It's a built in survival mechanism.

Believe it or not, I understand this statement completely. I felt exactly the same way before I left Christianity. And before you ask if I was a true Scotsman (See this link to know what I mean) please take a step back and realize that probably 90% of the Americans on this site were true believers. Not only was I a Christian, I was an apologist, doing exactly what you're doing now, trying to convince atheists to believe in God.

I believe your question is an honest one, and I don't know any other way to answer it than to say that I know from first hand experience that it's difficult to believe that the world makes sense without a deity until you realize that the deity is the thing that doesn't make sense. Sounds contradictory, I know, but it's not. Everything in the universe happens for a very sound, logical reason, but these reasons contradict the bible, and don't agree with the model of the universe presented by Christianity. If you begin with the assumption that God exists, of course logic will seem illogical! The problem is, the assumption that God exists is a fundamental logical error, and everything that follows from it just keeps spiralling down the toilet of irrationality and irrelevance.

(Realize that "logic" is not a science. It's a description. Logic is the word we use to refer to the existing, universal process by which humans process information and reach conclusions. There is no way to argue that logic is not valid. There have been many threads dealing with this issue.)

No, they're not crucial, and no, the findings have not been proven false. You are ignorant of the scientific method, and particularly ignorant of the theory of evolution if you believe that. Many of the theories you hold dear have gaps. Electricity, for instance, is not completely explained, yet we know that it works, and we can describe the effects of it. The theory of gravity has gaps. We are nowhere near to understanding every bit of the DNA sequence, yet we can describe with great accuracy that which we do understand.

I.mcbryar, I suspect that you are not interested in truth. Rather, I think you've found something you believe to be true, and you are going to cling to it despite the fact that there is a wealth of evidence to the contrary at your fingertips. If you'd like to learn about evolution, there are hundreds of very detailed textbooks available, as well as good links online. If you'd like to know about atheism, there are plenty of great books you can buy from this very site. Logic? Again, plenty of textbooks.

Having said that, if you're just going to post unfounded claims, like "evolution has been disproven," you're not going to garner very much respect around here. Are you seriously trying to say that thousands and thousands of scientists who've devoted years of their life to earning PhDs in their respected fields are either so dumb that they can't see that evolution is false, or they're all lying because... um... actually I can't think of a reason why they'd all lie....

and because you read a few websites, and listened to a few preachers, you know the truth?

Please.

ah, i understand a little better now. thanks. but i do want to know something, what do you see as an answered prayer? Do you see it as a yes? or maybe a no? or maybe a physical manifestation? i ask to try to see where you come from here.

you were correct in assuming i mean fossi evidence. i go from here because time is held in these fossils. this is the best record of our earth that we have. and about answering things about extinct species and "new" species. i never said species couldn't go extinct. it is obvious they have. there is proof of creatures that are no longer here. dont dismiss that at all. but new? that i have to disagree with. just because it is new to us does not mean it is new to the earth. elephants, to continue your example, were in India long before the Germanic tribes of Europe, the ancient Romans, or even the Chinese learned of. does that mean that they were not there? another example is when the U.S. patent office made the claim that everything had been invented and that there was nothing more to be created. later on, cars, trains, computers, ect, all exist. the technology just had not been found. we find new species of insects everyday, but does that mean they were just recently created? or the creatures we have known about for centuries?

i have to question your thoughts on the idea of food. would it not take, as evolution itself claims, a large time, for these single celled organisms to adapt to eating? so how does it become a quick thing? and also, food is a basic need for survival. energy is passed from one creature to another, so therefore, eating would have had to have been a need from the begining. this is another part of the cell that would have had to come together from the beginning. many accredited scientists today say the chances of all of these parts of a cell comming together randomly would be astronomical. virtually impossible.

and the god issue, so what do you believe about this creator? i have heard many theories on creation, about what the God is doing, or not doing. for instance, he/she is just watching the world, that they created it and then left it, or some that i dont understand at all. just curious.

Salamanders and Songbirds

More details on the salamanders, with additional links

London mosquitos

Another article on Himalayan song birds

Speciation by reinforcement



Lots of examples here

More examples

Speciation models

Links on examples and models

More on the London mosquitos

Ringed-speciation model and examples, plus links

In Drosophila (fruit flies)

Biochemistry

Evolution of human intellect and diet

Evolution of language

Music and the relation to language (registration required)

Evolution of religious memes

Bacteria flagella

Avida Digital evolution

More on the evolution of religion

Complex evolution in the laboratory

The eye

The brain

Ok.  Your turn.  Show me the convincing scientific evidence that evolution is false.

So, you are around 19, then? OK.  Here's the problem I have with thisclaim of trying logic for the first 14 years of life.  When you are 14 (and younger) your cerebral cortex has not sufficiently developed to process many tasks necessary to even be capable of certain logical conclusions.  When does our cortex develop fully?  Well, that depend from person to person, but anywhere from the 17-early 20's for most people.  

Thus, even if you are being truthful in trying to use logic to figure things out until the age of 14, then accepted Christianity for the next 5 years, you would not have been sufficiently intellectually mature (let alone emotionally and psychologically) enough to really consider the logical ramifications of these theological questions at 14.  

Granted, there are exceptions, and you may have been one of them.  But frankly, your grasp of the issues that i have seen from this discussion are not quite sufficient to grant that 5 years ago you were intellectually developed enough to have grasped all of the ramifications of these questions.  That is, unless you've somehow gone from logical prodigy to what I see in your questions and arguments now, I sincerely doubt that you have really considered all of the implications of your questions.

Thus, I hope you stay to follow the arguments along and are willing to allow yourself to be open to the community of people here who have a very good grasp of logic, history, theology, psychology, and the myriad of other topics that people here have varying levels of expertise on.  

Please do not take this post as an ad hominem attack, as I mean it in the sense of constructive criticism, and not an attack at all.

Shaun 

Pacific Pan Deist.

Your notion of god makes sense to me. I have considered that that might be "who" god is. I don't really feel it though.  Does this notion of god affect how you live your life?

Chelsea