Pope likes that old kind of rock'n'roll?

thingy
SuperfanGold Member
thingy's picture
Posts: 1022
Joined: 2007-02-07
User is offlineOffline
Pope likes that old kind of rock'n'roll?

One of my best friends is an Athiest, always has been.  I've known him since the 1st grade, yet it was only around 8th grad that I myself started questioning religion (and 10th grade when I tore myself away).  we both went to Catholic schools our whole lives, two seperate schools, him because his (athiest) parents thought they'd provide the best education and me because that's where my dad went and my family were strongly roman catholic.

Being forced in to catholic schools for him unfortunately meant being forced in to going to church with the rest of the class/year/entire school.  One thing that always amazed him was the mind-numbing chants we always droned out.  There's a few certain prayers said at certain times during each and every ceremony and he was always dumfounded how we seemed to not notice or care that it sounded like we were all brainwashed and chanting in time "Yes master, I will obey!  Obey!"

This doesn't work with young people.  In Austrlia at least, traditional churches have been losing numbers in droves.  Evangelical churches are popping up all over the place (the most popular here in Sydney being Hillsong) and it's a booming trade.  They're actually attracting young people back.  Other more traditional churches are slowly adjusting.  Small changes like having more modern songs instead of the traditional hymns, an actual band instead of a choir and pipe organ.  Short plays up on stage to get across the message of scriptures etc.  It has to some minor degree worked for them too.

Now it's finally time for me to get to the point of all this ...

The Pope has just declared that he wants Churches to do the opposite.

Quote:
THE Pope has urged greater use of Latin prayers and Gregorian chants in large public and international Masses as he moves to wind back contemporary expressions of church prayer life.

The Pope has cast a critical eye over styles of musical accompaniment, the colour of the priests' vestments, even church art in a teaching document issued in response to an international synod of bishops on the celebration of the Eucharist.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/pope-blesses-some-of-that-oldtime-religion/2007/03/13/1173722471218.html

Does this guy have the slightest clue at all?  I guess from our standpoint it can only be a good thing.  Drive more people away from the church and to rationality.  Maybe the Pope himself is an Atheist? Sticking out tongue

Organised religion is the ultimate form of blasphemy.
Censored and blacked out for internet access in ANZ!
AU: http://nocleanfeed.com/ | NZ: http://nzblackout.org/


Roisin Dubh
Roisin Dubh's picture
Posts: 428
Joined: 2007-02-11
User is offlineOffline
I think it's a good sign for

I think it's a good sign for secularists that at least one major religion has resorted to marketing campaigns to save their shrinking masses.  What's basically happening is this-- There is a book that allegedly contains the Word of God.  There are traditions and teachings that stretch back thousands of years.  Both the book and the traditions contain messages like, "be a good person and you will live forever in paradise" and "if you're not good you will suffer for eternity in hell."  Despite all this, kids aren't impressed.  Apparently, god wasn't a very good persuasive writer, and so church officials now have turned to the one remaining thing that can get people to buy a shitty product-- a shiny package.  What is drawing some youths back to these evangelical churches isnt their content, it's the rock show format in which it presents the material.  When you think about it, it's pretty desperate.  The pope, to his credit, understands that the religion cant survive if the focus isnt on the doctrine.  However, that would imply that the doctrine can stand on it's own merits.  Increasingly, we are seeing that it can't.

"The powerful have always created false images of the weak."


Hambydammit
High Level DonorModeratorRRS Core Member
Hambydammit's picture
Posts: 8657
Joined: 2006-10-22
User is offlineOffline
And are we surprised that

And are we surprised that the pope has his panties in a wad over this "new fangled music"?

During the Council of Trent, which convened three times from 1545 to 1563, the church was considering a variety of draconic restrictions on new and dangerous social trends -- notably, polyphonic music. (Oh, yeah... there was that Luther guy, too...)

For those of you who are not music geeks, go find yourself some Gregorian Chant and listen for a while. You'll find that it's generally in one of two forms: 1) everyone sings exactly the same melody, or 2) some sing one melody, and some sing the very same melody, except a bit lower or higher. In music, we call this "parallel voices."

(If you find some chant that sounds more complicated, you're going too far forward in history. Later on, some of the organum was more complicated, but I digress...)

Anyway, somewhere along the line, somebody figured out that you could actually sing or play two different melodies at the same time, and if you were clever, you could write them so they made neat sounding harmonies. This was the beginning of polyphony. Without polyphony, the best we could hope for would be singing "Row, Row, Row your boat" in a canon, or "round." We'd have no Bach, no Beethoven, no Brahms, no Billy Idol. Oh, and theists, we wouldn't have Michael W. Smith, either.

Anyway... I could talk about that for a while... used to teach music, believe it or not.

So, the Council of Trent was thinking pretty seriously about banning polyphony. You see, God doesn't like polyphony, because it sounds so good that it prevents people from thinking about God. I'm not making this up, by the way. This is really what they thought. So, Giovanni Pierluigi da Palestrina, arguably the most influential Rennaissance composer, showed up with his Missa Papae Marcelli, a remarkably beautiful mass using a wide range of polyphonic techniques, which he had written specifically for the occasion. After hearing it performed, the Council immediately saw the error of their ways and voted not to ban polyphonic music.

Ok, the last part of that is just a legend. Palestrina actually wrote it about ten years prior, and there's no evidence that the council immediately changed their tune (pun intended) after hearing it. It is likely that Palestrina did offer the mass as "evidence" and that he probably addressed the Council, but the story of him "saving music" is a bit overblown.

While we're on the subject, anybody remember that all the preachers got really upset about all that Rock-n-Roll music back in the 50s? They claimed it would lead young people to such horrific moral crimes as dancing and staying out late. Jerry Fallwell was famous for blasting Rock and Roll from the pulpit. Someone will have to check me on this, but I think he was the guy who decided that KISS stood for "Knights in Satan's Service."

I think it's damn funny that so many churches are starting to use a Rock and Roll format to keep the young people interested. Apparently abstinence, teetotaling, and pious prayer meeting attendance just aren't the draws they used to be.

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism


thingy
SuperfanGold Member
thingy's picture
Posts: 1022
Joined: 2007-02-07
User is offlineOffline
Don't judge a book by its

Don't judge a book by its cover.  As long as it's the same message getting through and the wrapping is in line with the message*, then does the wrapping really make a difference?

It wouldn't be the first time Christianity has changed its views anyway.  It has a habbit of changing its views based on current laws and popular moral values, this is one of the best arguments against Christianity by Muslims.  That's why it is surprising that it still doesn't support condoms at the very least.  

But alas I'm not a theist so I'm happy for them to take what I perceive as backwards steps.  

 

 

(*Note: This may sound a little redundant, however I stated this as just after typing it I thought "message being delivered at gunpoint or through torture etc? ... I think I had better be more specific.&quotEye-wink

Organised religion is the ultimate form of blasphemy.
Censored and blacked out for internet access in ANZ!
AU: http://nocleanfeed.com/ | NZ: http://nzblackout.org/


Hambydammit
High Level DonorModeratorRRS Core Member
Hambydammit's picture
Posts: 8657
Joined: 2006-10-22
User is offlineOffline
Religion is remarkably

Religion is remarkably adaptive.  History proves that.  I feel certain that if left unchecked, Christianity will not even remember the "Great 21st Century Music Debate" in the 25th century.  Oh, it'll be in the history books, and a few erudite bookworms will spout off about it on atheist forums, but the churches will be happily playing the "old songs" that have "always been the foundation of church music."  You know, composers like Amy Grant and Sandi Patti.

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism


Susan
Susan's picture
Posts: 3561
Joined: 2006-02-12
User is offlineOffline
Hambydammit

Hambydammit wrote:

Religion is remarkably adaptive. History proves that. I feel certain that if left unchecked, Christianity will not even remember the "Great 21st Century Music Debate" in the 25th century. Oh, it'll be in the history books, and a few erudite bookworms will spout off about it on atheist forums, but the churches will be happily playing the "old songs" that have "always been the foundation of church music." You know, composers like Amy Grant and Sandi Patti.

Don't forget the singers like Anita Bryant!  (Or is everyone else here too young to remember her?) 

Atheist Books, purchases on Amazon support the Rational Response Squad server.


Nimitz68
Nimitz68's picture
Posts: 48
Joined: 2006-10-29
User is offlineOffline
Oh you are so giving away

Oh you are so giving away your age! I just barely remember her...from high school. Wink


Susan
Susan's picture
Posts: 3561
Joined: 2006-02-12
User is offlineOffline
Nimitz68 wrote: Oh you are

Nimitz68 wrote:

Oh you are so giving away your age! I just barely remember her...from high school. Wink

I vaguely remember when Anita Bryant was Miss America in 1959. *sigh*

I vividly remember the boycott against Florida oranges because of her anti-gay stance around 1979.

Atheist Books, purchases on Amazon support the Rational Response Squad server.