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Free Will Contradiction?

Posted on: March 17, 2007 - 8:44am

phooney

Posts: 385

Joined: 2007-02-07

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Free Will Contradiction?

I think we can all agree that an omnipotent being could certainly provide us with enough evidence of his existence to put it beyond all reasonable doubt.

I've seen some theists argue that he doesn't do this so as not to rob us of our free will to believe in him or not. I disagree with this arguement on the basis that even if we knew he existed, we'd still be free to choose to follow him or not, we'd just have a good reason to do so.

What I was just thinking about as a further rebuttal of the argument is of all the people who (according to religious texts) have received just such evidence. The speaking burning bushes, the divine interventions, the visits from angels etc. Was the free will of these biblical characters not as important to god as everybody elses? Did he rob them of any accountability for their actions?

It's probably been mentioned before.... but it's something I just thought about.

Posted on: April 5, 2007 - 4:39pm #51

razorphreak

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Jaden wrote:

Jaden wrote:

Nevermind the point I was trying to make, it wasn't towards you (and I obviously failed in attempt) . It was more or less trying to say, it matters not the proof Christians bring here, because they think all Theists are delusional. So they might as well be talking to crazy people. So if all people who believe in God are crazy, is it rational to listen to them. So there's the dilemma for you Razorfreak.

Actually I find it rather entertaining and, believe it or not, very educational to read what others post on this forum. What I actually find interesting however is while atheists believe theists are delusional, why is it their concern to prove them delusional?

Jaden wrote:

So I would like to know your interpertation of 2 Corinthians 10:5
"We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ."

2 Corinthians is a rebuttal letter based on the Corinth church's response to 1 Corinthians. Paul wrote 1 Cor because the Corinth church had begun to form a dogmatic approach to their way of believing and Paul had to correct them into stopping their arrogance that they were more divine than others. 2 Cor is a response to how Corinth reacted (according to his apprentices) and in chapter 10 he is defending what he has taught. The verse you quoted is part of his defense against others in the Corinth church who question him as a true apostle.

Jaden wrote:

And to the Atheists, what is the proof you need to possibly believe that God exists.

I don't understand this part...was it part of asking on 2 Cor??

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire

Posted on: April 6, 2007 - 5:07pm #52

Vastet

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Jaden wrote: And to the

Jaden wrote:

And to the Atheists, what is the proof you need to possibly believe that God exists.

I don't know. But I'd know it if I saw it. I also know that if there was one, it wouldn't be any god I know of that's still worshipped today.

Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.

Posted on: April 6, 2007 - 7:26pm #53

Susan

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I agree with Vastet. I

I agree with Vastet.

I think "knowing it when I see it" would be like smelling pot. I didn't know what it smelled like, but I definitely knew exactly what it was the first time I smelled it.

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Posted on: April 6, 2007 - 9:25pm #54

razorphreak

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vaslet, susan, And if is

vaslet, susan,

And if is God's will, you will know it at the time of his choosing. It's happened to several friends of mine, it's happened to me, and if it be his will, it will happen to you.

Posted on: April 6, 2007 - 10:17pm #55

Vastet

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And if it be your will, you

And if it be your will, you shall escape the shadow of religion and enter the light of humanity and science. It's happened to every friend of mine who really cares one way or the other. Can't say it happened to me, since I was never under the shadow in the first place. But it really is your decision in the end.

Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.

Posted on: April 6, 2007 - 11:55pm #56

razorphreak

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It's not a shadow to me

It's not a shadow to me though. It wasn't my choice to be called and it isn't my choice to hear him. It's not a choice to break away when you are in this deep...

Posted on: April 7, 2007 - 11:28am #57

ShaunPhilly

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Well, if it's not our

Well, if it's not our choice, then what's the point of trying to convince us of anything concerning it. And if God never chooses to make himself known to me, does that mean that I was born to be an atheist, and God wants it that way?

Hell, who am I to argue. I'll remain an atheist, then.

Eye-wink

I'll fight for a person's right to speak so long as that person will, in return, fight to allow me to challenge their opinions and ridicule them as the content of their ideas merit.

Posted on: April 7, 2007 - 12:33pm #58

Vastet

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razorphreak wrote: It's not

razorphreak wrote:

It's not a shadow to me though. It wasn't my choice to be called and it isn't my choice to hear him. It's not a choice to break away when you are in this deep...

Well, for me it is a shadow. The darkest shadow we have hanging over us.

Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.

Posted on: April 7, 2007 - 6:05pm #59

razorphreak

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ShaunPhilly wrote:

ShaunPhilly wrote:

Well, if it's not our choice, then what's the point of trying to convince us of anything concerning it. And if God never chooses to make himself known to me, does that mean that I was born to be an atheist, and God wants it that way?

Shaun my friend...I'm not trying to convince you of anything. I can only speak for myself and answer to what my faith tells me.

If God does not reveal himself to you, YES you were meant to be an atheist. God can choose how his creations will be according to his will, believer or not (Romans 9:21). There will be MANY who will say you can repent, you can say you want God, blah blah blah, but it is written that no one will approach Jesus (the way to salvation) until God makes him known to the man/woman (Matthew 11:27). And if God does not make himself known, you are who you are according to his will. Again, and I know I've said this hundreds of times already (how many posts do I have??), because you are not chosen, that does NOT mean damnation (Romans 2:14).