PLEASE MAKE
SURE TO
FOLLOW THE
RULES!
RULES
This is the
Kill Em
With
Kindness
Forum!
PLEASE MAKE
SURE TO
FOLLOW THE
RULES!
RULES
This is the
Kill Em
With
Kindness
Forum!
PLEASE MAKE
SURE TO
FOLLOW THE
RULES!
This is the
Kill Em
With
Kindness
Forum!
RULES
PLEASE MAKE
SURE TO
FOLLOW THE
RULES!
This is the
Kill Em
With
Kindness
Forum!
PLEASE MAKE
SURE TO
FOLLOW THE
RULES!
RULES
This is the
Kill Em
With
Kindness
Forum!
PLEASE MAKE
SURE TO
FOLLOW THE
RULES!
Offline 
Bumping.
What? No theist takers on this?
Awww. Come on. This is a good question!
Well, I would be just pleased as peaches, I might even take the little bugger out for some ice crream or a drive-in movie show....
Awww, crap I forgot, I'm not a theist.....
*BUMP*
I would like to see some theists chime in on this one.
A hard one too!
Can we tell what happened to us when we told our parents we were atheists? That might be interesting.
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Iruka, please create a new thread for that. Maybe in the Freethinker's forum.
I'd really like to hear what the theists have to say which is why I put this in the Kill 'Em With Kindness thread.
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I'm very interested to hear what a theist would have to say as well.
Bump.
Bump.
Not even a hit and run, theists?
Bumpus.
They know that they don't have to be parents to answer this, right?
Come on, theists! I even posted this in the Kill 'Em With Kindness forums so nobody could insult you for your answers.
HHmm. Maybe the answers are too graphic and violent for this forum and they're just obeying the rules.
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I wouldn't care.
You are a theist, correct?
I was raised Christian and believe in God.
Depending on age.. I'd ask why. If he had good reason.. the so be it. If I believe the God allowed me freewill on the matter.. why would I try and deny it from someone else?
Yet, if his reason is based upon something other than good reasoning (and yes, I do believe there is good reasoning to be, or become, an atheist, as well as bad reasoning).. then I might have to approach it differently.
Of course.. I don't have any kids at the moment.. and don't plan on having any until I'm out of graduate school--so I still have some time.
No doubt there could be reasons that are just plain silly.
Silly aside, though. Do you have any idea where to draw the line between good reason and bad reason?
Would you consider it a good reason if the child (let's say a 17 year old for argument's sake) had reasons along the line of:
God wouldn't allow terrible disease.
God wouldn't allow child abuse.
God wouldn't allow poverty.
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Where does anyone draw the line between "good reason and bad reason"? If it was easily found.. I'm sure the american legal system would be a much more certain place.
Only if he/she had reason to believe that those things existed independently of anything else.
For instance (and no, I don't mean to say God is a parent but), if a parent spanked a child, would that, in and of itself, be reason to believe that the parent is not a "loving parent".
I would contend no.. unless the "spanking" existed independently of anything else.
And yes.. at age 17.. I'm pretty sure I would entertain the conversations-- my dad did it when I was much younger than that.. so why would I do any different? It seemed like a good thing.
I would only go so far back.. people only think as deeply as they want to.. and therefore, how far I would push my son/daughter into "critical thinking" would only go so far as to not damage our relationship. My belief, as a Christian, I believe, is in line with this.. no benefit is gained from pushing a child into feeling stupid (for any reason)-- which is a definite possibility when "challenging" someones thought processes.
(edit) Perhaps I should have said "good reasoning".. as opposed to "good reason". Judging "good reasoning" is a bit less subjective than judging what is a "good reason". Hmm...
Thanks, Rhad.
I must admit that this was a rational answer!
Heh. But, in anycase, we'll see.. I'm sure having a kid has some unexpected effects on a psyche.. so, who knows, I may be a dad who will speaks baby talk until my kids are 18.
But.. in the end, I just hope i'm a good parent--whatever that entails.
Is the choice of worshipping god or burning in hell considered as free will?
I don't dislike all of the religious people...just the religious part. - The ones that think they are good because they don't kill and are kind should think about the harm they do by perpetrating the idea it's OK to believe in things that lack any evidenc
I'm a Christian. This does not necessitate that I believe in a "hell" where people "burn forever"-- you assume to much concerning my belief system. Not all christian denominations are the same as Catholics or Baptists (which (I believe).. are the largest denominations within Christianity-- which, I believe, hold as part of their beliefs a concept of "a literal placed called hell where people are tormented". But, I'm sure they'd be better to explain their beliefs on the matter.. as well as how they would address this particular parenting situation).
[added] The bible does not necessitate the belief in a literal hell where people are eternally tormented--I believe other interpretations on the matter can be reconciled with biblical concepts)
[addedx2] It occured to me that I might have been to harsh.. and for that I apologize. I realize that the "hell concept" is rather popular.. and therefore, it might be reasonable to believe that it is a necessary belief if one is an evangelical.
So, once again, apologies
Hello RhadTheGizmo
Hey no problem. I was asking a question and I learned something. ie. I thought the idea of hell was universal among christains. I'd never heard any other interpretations. Now I know different.
Thanks.
I don't dislike all of the religious people...just the religious part. - The ones that think they are good because they don't kill and are kind should think about the harm they do by perpetrating the idea it's OK to believe in things that lack any evidenc
You're right, it is a good question! As the father of three teenage boys and a 5-year old daughter, it is the type of question we dread while raising them. "What if they say they don't believe in God?" "What if they tell me they are gay?" What if they tell me they are pregnant or fathered a child?" But as a follower of Yahashua HaMashiach ( aka Jesus the Christ) my answer is already written.
The answer to all those questions is: You love them! That is the best thing a parent can do. By that I mean you show them proper respect for thier opinions and beliefs, just as I expect them to respect mine. Belittling them, raving and ranting at them, or shutting them out does nothing but cement the idea that parents are closed-minded tyrants.
If it is a young (under 10) child saying it, they are probably responding to something recent in thier experience, say a tv show or something they heard. As a parent it would be my job to ask them why they have decided this and listen to thier reasoning. If it is of the type"Johnnie goes to church and he is MEAN so I'm not going to church!" then I simply explain not all people going to church are good, or Christian. If some students in her class are nice and some are mean, shouldn't we expect the same from any group. If thier decision is based on someone hurting them physically then it is my job to assure them I still love them and will try to make sure the offender can't do it again.
If it is an older child, then we should sit down and discuss thier decision and the causes of it. Why this decision and why now? What has changed in thier life to bring them to this conclusion? Is it an accumulation of many little things or one or two major things? Then my job as a parent is to explain why I wouldn't make this decision for myself or why I think it might be an unwise decision. My job would also be to show them other possible outcomes or conclusions to be drawn from the things bringing them to this decision.
What I say to them would depend entirely on the information gathered from them at the time. My reaction to thier decision would always be the same! "You are my son/daughter and I love you! I will not always agree with you or approve of the things you say or do, but I will always love you."
Ultimately our jobs as parents is simply to prepare our children to live and function as adults. We don't do this by stifleing them, shutting them off, or putting them in our belief box, or by rushing to do things for them every time they fall or make a mistake. We prepare them by nurturing thier thinking skills, helping them cope with thier feelings, and letting them make mistakes, then help them learn from those mistakes.
My children are not perfect, and they definitely are not mini-me. They are each unique individuals with unique gifts and talents. They will make thier own decisions about life, death, taxes, sex, and everything else. I have enough problems making my own decisions, I can't make all thiers also.
Follower of "I AM" the Elohim of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
All children, like all adults, are atheists by nature from the beginning. It's not as though you could find out that your child is an atheist - you know it already from the time they are born.
As for changing this (or justifying remaining in it), I don't see this as a possibility for children. I do not even really consider people to be capable of truly rational thought until nearly their 30's. Before that time, they are children - they think and act like children. Again, this is their nature. It is the nature of all of us.
Since you asked: I am a theist and then some. Inside what parades itself as the "church" today, I would be called either an ultra-fundamentalist or a liberal - depending upon whom you asked. In the world, I am most often regarded as a nut-job. That's to be expected, so I do not disparage anyone their opinion of me.
As for my own kids (I have 8 of them) I deliberately discourage the notion of "making decisions for Christ" or "giving their hearts to Jesus" or any other such nonsense until they are at least in their 20's. Children are simply not equiped to make such weighty decisions. A casual purusal of MySpace.com is more than sufficient evidence of that.
I know that 90% of what kids think they believe at age 18 they will no longer believe ten years hence. And one of the things that I am most grateful is the fact that I am not having to live with the consequences of decisions that I made at age 17. Or 23 either for that matter.
The whole matter of whether you remain an athiest or whether you surrender your will to that of God depends largely on the workings of the Holy Spirit. Men (and women) can aid and influence that, I suppose, in one direction or the other, but only to a certain degree. I really do not buy into the idea of complete and true and unadultered self-will.
That I am (what we call) "saved" is largely none of my doing. It was very much like I was a mere spectator in the whole affair, even though I know, in the end, I was directly accountable for it.
There are things that are easy, and there are things that are hard. Some things that Jesus said (and those that followed him closely) are just that: hard sayings. I am content to leave them as hard sayings. I do not feel the urge to have to know the utter ends of all things. There are things that I understand, and there are things that I am content to leave alone unto another day.
The biggest fool is the one who thinks he has it all figured out. Many is the man who thought thusly to the end. And they are all, without exception, dead today.
Except maybe one.
As an aside, is there a topic asking how atheist/agnostic parents would feel if their child declared that they were a theist?
Freedom of religious belief is an inalienable right. Stuffing that belief down other people's throats is not.
Yup. Here you go!
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Cheers. In true internet fashion I saw the topic approximatley thirty seconds after pressing the return key on my question.
D'oh!
Freedom of religious belief is an inalienable right. Stuffing that belief down other people's throats is not.
I'd be sad.
Would you care to expound a bit with the questions in the original post?
(By the way, welcome to the forums!)
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I have to disagree with you, rational thought is not at all dependant on age. Some people are incapable of rational thought their entire life (sadly). I think it depends on your education, you can learn how to make rational claims and how to think rational et cetera. And 30 may be setting the bar a little high (it also depends on individual maturity).
Science is organized knowledge. Wisdom is organized life. - Immanuel Kant
Aye, same. I am 16 and capable of more rational thought than people 3x my age. I do not believe age to show intelligence or even the capability to rationalize.
"Why would God send his only son to die an agonizing death to redeem an insignificant bit of carbon?"-Victor J. Stenger.
"...I am 16 and capable of more rational thought than people 3x my age..."
Thank you for so aptly proving my point.
I don't think I could have done it better myself.
Do you realise that it's pretty disrespectful what you say? It's a plain generalisation and what you said about maturity is a naked assertion based on your own bias. Furthermore, how do you define "rational thought" and "truly rational thought"? That sounds just like "true" and "truest" to me.
Can rational thought be rational on a meta level? That wouldn't change anything about the truth value of a statement...
Yeah, I notice adults disrespect the capacity of the youth all the time. I'm 18 myself, relatively young so to say, but I've touched more science books and books on logic than most adults ever will...(most don't even know what formal/modal logic is).
The ability of rational argumentation is simply a skill you can learn.
From my own experience I'd say, that young people who sincerely educate themselves in intellectual disciplines are often far more reasonable and mature than older people project them to be. The only difference between old and young is the time they've had to gather knowledge.
My conclusion: Some gain maturity sooner than others. Some later. And many never will.
P.S: Ever thought about why the age requirement for voting is as it is?
Science is organized knowledge. Wisdom is organized life. - Immanuel Kant
If my children come to atheism or agnosticism in a caring manner, then I would be very happy. But if they embrace atheism, as do so many atheists that scream and rant exclusively at Christians to somehow escape guilt and guilty feelings, or to bobblehaed alomg with some psuedo-alternative club, then I would have to hope my children become rational thinking beings sometime in their lives.
Agnostic wouldn't be so bad. Atheist, I would be worried for the mental and physical health.
0 x 0 = Atheism. Something from nothing? Ahhh no.
And Karl, religion is not the opiate of the people, opium is. Visit any modern city in the western world and see.
Guilty of what?
Science is organized knowledge. Wisdom is organized life. - Immanuel Kant
I note that I have gotten responses to the first question, but not the other three.
Any takers?
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1) I believe that I can't force anyone to accept Jesus and thus would only ask him/her why they don't believe in God and then share why I do believe in God.
2) I think age wouldn't matter
3)No it wouldn't matter
4) I don't have any children, so no I haven't.
"
From my own experience I'd say, that young people who sincerely educate themselves in intellectual disciplines are often far more reasonable and mature than older people project them to be. The only difference between old and young is the time they've had to gather knowledge.
My conclusion: Some gain maturity sooner than others. Some later. And many never will."
You may be pleased to know that I agree with you 100%
Here's food for thought: There is a difference between "cannot" and "will not", just as there is a difference between "will be" and "shall be".
That should answer all your questions by the time you get to the bottom of it.
Y'know bzeurunkl you're actually really insulting. I'm 20 and quite regularly debate with my lecturers in the philosophy department over drinks, am headed for a first class degree and am constantly thinking, philosophising. Yes, I'm the first to admit my philosophy isn't fully formed, I haven't covered every avenue of thought, I haven't had the time to continuously re-think every avenue I already have been down, because I've only been alive two decades, at least one of which I was incapable of any rational thought for.
But to say that everyone under 30 isn't rational is not only false but extremely insulting, prejudiced and is based on irrelevant differences. The time we are alive for does not affect the capacity or use of our brains. There are much older people who have never used their brains, most of them are religious. The brain is fully formed during puberty, there is no real difference intellectually between an 18 year olf and a 50 year old of similar IQ, although the 18 year olds will inevitably think differently, the level of thought will be no different. You're mistaking rationality with maturity.
Atheist Books
You need to keep in mind my reply to Matness. What I said was a complete generalization for the sake of making a point. It was rhetoric. Even I do not believe it to be literally true, and, like I said to Matt, I agree with that part of his statement 100%.
One of the failures of insisting only on "logic" is that human beings are not logical creatures.
That's what's so amusing about the concept of "athiests."
Psychologists think (though I am unable to prove their hypothesis one way or another - but I have no reason to doubt their method) that the human brain does not operate on "logic" and that there are parts of our brain's workings that are not even subject to it.
That's what makes the cartoon strip "Dilbert" so funny.
"There are much older people who have never used their brains, most of them are religious. The brain is fully formed during puberty, ......"
BTW - There's a generalisation of your own. To say that most people who do not use their brain are religious is painting with several different broad brushes at the same time. Two of them would be that "older people are not using their brains", and that "most of them are religious." In fact, I'd have to say that most of them are just plain ignorant, simpletons who tend to smoke weed and drink budweiser and pay $100 to watch football games on PPV.
And your assertion that the brain is fully developed by puberty is just plain factually incorrect.
Barring a degenerative disorder, the normal human brain continues to develop until death.
I agree with everything you've said in your exchange on this matter except for the education part. Many theist are educated and fail to think logically. I think it more depends on the type of education in a specific sense. Many people go through school without ever being taught how to think critically.
Hell, I'm 22 and haven't even graduated high school yet(rare medical condition, but I'm working on a degree slowly) and yet I know more and read more about science and the bible than most people I know(though not on these boards
)
I suck at signatures.
I would be perfectly okay with it. I would enjoy discussing faith (or lack thereof) with my child anyhow. Everyone has a choice in the matter, children included.
I would find the matter more serious if the child was 16 instead of 6, but I would be accepting either way.
nope... I'd treat them the same.
I do not have any kids. However, my mother is a very staunch Catholic, and I'm pretty sure she thinks I'm gonna burn in Hell... after all, I'm pro-choice and liberal. I even believe in re-incarnation and I don't go to church.... but she loves me just the same. She just prays for my eternal soul to be saved from the hellfire of damnation everyday... but she means well.
*edited for I'm an idiot
Ah, the pitter patter of tiny feet in huge combat boots.
Moonhawk's answer was so complete and wise I can scarcely think what to add.
The specific point about if it was a son or a daughter is interesting to me though. I only have a daughter now (number 2 on the way is still a ?) but I can see where my response might be different. As a father I could see where I might feel more protective of my daughter and a little tougher on my hypothetical son. This might lead me to appeal more to my daughter in an attempt to protect her whereas I might be more apt to let a son experience some of the negative consequences on his own without as much petition on my part. All of that is hypothetical at this point and would depend on the temperament and personality of the child.
Wisdom > Logic
YOU WROTE: What would you react and what would you do if you found out that your child is Atheist or Agnostic?
How would your response differ depending on the child's age?
Would your response differ if it was a daughter rather than a son?
Have any of the Christian parents on this forum dealt with this personally?
I am more than happy to write a response to your question. I am not only a Christian parent, but a minister and one who has devoted my life to teaching people about Jesus Christ.
I have already explained to Scottmax that conversion at the tip of a sword is not conversion at all. What I mean by that is that I, nor anyone, can convert or convince someone to become Christian. I can certainly share my faith and I can teach, but in the end - one must be called by God to be a Christian. Conversion is both a heart and head transformation. I teach my children about God and about Jesus Christ because it is truth. I realize that the majority on this website don't agree with me, but I am the parent to my children and therefore I will teach them what I believe to be true. If you are a parent, you will teach your children what you believe to be true. I would like to say that I am tired of reading on this site that I and other Christian parents "brainwash" their children. And here is why:
1. Again, I cannot make someone have faith in God
2. If the majority of atheists were once theists (which is what many of you claim) then we really stink at this brainwashing thing. In other words - it doesn't work, so why are so many offended by a parent doing what we believe to be right?
How would I respond differently depending on their age? Well, while the child is a minor and under my care and responsibility, they will continue to go to church with me and listen on Sunday morning. When the time comes that they leave the house, they will have to make up their own minds about what they believe. Let's be clear about this. Theists (in my case, Christian) believe in God and Atheists believe in no God. There is no empirical scientific proof for either belief. I cannot scientifically prove He exist and you cannot scientifically prove that He does not exist. Everywhere on this site I see the same thing - "The burden of proof fall on the theist." Whereas I disagree with this statement, neither can be proved. As for my kids, I would continue to pray for them just like I pray for people on this website.
I do not see a different response for daughter or son.
Although my children are still quite young and I personally have not dealt with this issue - I know parents in my congregation who have dealt with this. It hurts them and they wish it didn't happen - but they know that belief in God is not within our control.
Just curious - what would you do as an Atheist, if your child came home from college and said that a friend of theirs led them to the Lord. They now had faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. How would you respond to that news?
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
REVLyle, take a look here:
http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/sapient/kill_em_with_kindness/6206
My wife is a physician - a general practitioner and an atheist.
I'm a Catholic, who attends mass and takes communion twice a month.
We're both in our very early 40's and we have a 22-month old son, Brandon.
Brandon is going to be baptized very shortly (the delay has nothing to do with our religious views and some "conflict" - it's just good old fashioned procrastination..!)
When he's older, then he'll go through the process of confirmation - and then when he hits his teenage years, he'll be in a position to make his own mind up.
My wife does not have any problem with these Catholic rituals.
He'll know that his father is a "man of faith" - a believer and he'll know his mother isn't.
My wife is a very bright woman who's made her mind up based on the " lack of evidence".
However, he'll know his father - a banker with an MBA - is a believer based on the evidence..!
It's funny - I was raised as a Catholic, but in my mid teens, my belief and faith started to wane. When I was a senior at university, I decided to embark on a "quest" to confirm once and for all my growing "atheistic / agnostic" views.So I decided to speak to as many "learned people" / professors as I could from very diverse backgrounds - read as many books as I could so that I could finally put "religion" to bed and be secure in the knowledge that all of the "stuff I had been taught in church - by parents - etc was nothing more than "fiction".
Instead, the opposite happened.
Simply stated, the arguments put forth by the "religious" scholars made more sense than the arguments put forth by the "non-religious" respondents.
So, I won't have any more of a problem with Brandon's lack of beliefs -if that's where he happens to fit in - than I do with my wife's lack of beliefs.
Congratulations, jive turkey on your impending little ?
I hope everyone is healthy and doing well.
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No. I would teach my children how to research for themselves, how to critically think for themselves, and how to find their own answers.
I would never lie about what I believe, but I would not teach what I believe either. I would give them the tools to figure it out for themselves.
I'll fight for a person's right to speak so long as that person will, in return, fight to allow me to challenge their opinions and ridicule them as the content of their ideas merit.
BTW, I was a Senior SysAdmin for 10 years and just recently moved to a DBA role (saw your myspace page).
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