Actually, been busy working with the MS society a lot lately. I've been doing my bits. Correspondences like the one you saw, showing TGWWT for friends, and the like. As befitting my own style, i'm taking a softer approach. Firm, yet accomodating.

Great story man, you have amazing character and determination. Where do you goto catch showing of the Rocky Horror Picture Show? Not too many of those around anymore...

 Stan Wilson's article in response to my comments

What a Christian learned from an atheist (headline)

Once in a while, you have to take your lumps. And lumps were taken.

If you are not an atheist and plan to write a column or blog post or other public-square item about atheism, as happened here two weeks ago, take fair warning from the one with the lumps. Mind your p's and q's. Watch what you write. Check it twice. Better still, ask yourself --- do you really want to deal with the grief that may result?

Because you might not. Just like Christians, atheists have a small, dedicated group of unofficial monitors who --- again, just like some Christians --- quickly respond to whatever they see as published misrepresentations of fact or definition. This lumpy one received the, er, benefit of their expertise.

Speaking of definitions, an apology and a concession must be offered to Austin Cline, who is the contributing author for the section on atheism and agnosticism for the informational Web site about.com. The mistake made was to identify atheism as a belief system. It can be, as Cline pointed out, a component of a belief system, but should not be considered a belief system unto itself. Cline's depth and latitude should be deferred to, at least in that regard.

Amid the e-mails from knowledgeable atheists so eager to, uh, help (yes, that's the word), came one from a man who sought to talk to me, rather than at me, and to answer a fundamental question posed at the end of the previous column.

"In an article you wrote, you asked whether atheism has ever saved a life," wrote Jameson Sawyer. "Yes. Mine."

Sawyer is from Bowling Green, a suburb of Toledo, Ohio, and has suffered from multiple sclerosis since 2003. And last year was a bad one for him.

"I was in a dark place mentally," he wrote, "my fiance and I had broken up after five years, my multiple sclerosis was acting up, and due to it, I was rapidly becoming paraplegic, with no feeling in my legs and unable to even stand, let alone walk. I was basically bedridden. I will be totally honest here, I was contemplating suicide."

Friends prayed for him. However, Sawyer gives the credit for his decision to carry on with life to modern medicine, therapy, his own considerable grit and two other very important things.

One was his dedication to others. Sawyer was a team captain for the MS Walk in Toledo that year. As the day approached, he lay on his bed with a deadly combination of pills in his hands and his teammates on his mind.

Though "the pain was amazing," he wrote, "I thought about how my act would affect my own family and friends. I thought about how it would affect the people with MS who I'd be depriving of my ability to raise funds and awareness for the fight."

So his decision to choose life was made. "I'm too much of an actor. I'm not ready for the final curtain call."

He put the pills away and did his job at the MS Walk, on wheels and in pain.

"I had a mission to do, and it needed to be done," he wrote.

Whether you are atheist, Christian, Buddhist, Muslim, Jewish or whatever, you cannot read that and not feel the tug of connection, of sympathy --- not pity --- and triumph that can be shared.

The other important thing was corollary to the first. If you believe, as Sawyer does, that you're put here for other people, then you have to know the ground rules. He did, in his own way.

"As an atheist, I believe (with evidence to back it up) that this life is the only one we get. Getting off this ride now means you don't get another ride."

Of course, he means he does not subscribe to a belief in an existence after death, but anyone who does still can take his point and apply it.

In fact, a Christian should, on both points. First, just notice the Samaritan got the thumbs-up because he was there for the man who'd been robbed and beaten, but Pharisees who practiced religion for political reasons just got the thumb.

Second, heaven may be described as a reward in the Bible, but the point is clear: it's not an escape hatch, and, karma notwithstanding, life on Earth is a one-time deal.

There are some points on which Sawyer and I will have to agree to disagree. But disagreement is not the point, here. The point is what a Christian can learn from an atheist, and here it is: When best understood and applied, Christianity is a very human faith.

"Now, through a lot of work (both my own, my friends, and my doctors) I can get along with my life," Sawyer writes. "My ex and I have patched our friendship. . . . I can walk. I can get to my 'Rocky Horror' shows, my coffeehouses, my MS Walks. Every day isn't perfect. But it's the best I got."

The best we got here is a level field where two who disagree can stand and agree to understand.

That's not giving any ground to atheism, by the way. Sure, there was all that, uh, guidance from the others who e-mailed in, and some observations from Sawyer, but nothing that would make any serious, studious, logical, well-read, circumspect Christian stop and say, "Well, that does it. I was wrong."

But it doesn't mean there's nothing to be learned from them.

Thanks, Jameson Sawyer.

P.S.: If you want to read about Sawyer and his fellow soldiers in the cause against multiple sclerosis, visit facesofms.org.

Stan Nelson is a news editor at The Pueblo Chieftain. He may be reached via e-mail at [email protected].

Thanks.

 'The best we got here is a level field where two who disagree can stand and agree to understand.'

'But it doesn't mean there's nothing to be learned from them.'

I didn't expect to, at least to this man, become the 'goodwill ambasador' of Atheism. But hey.. words are one of my god-given (heh) talents. 

 We each fight this battle in our own way, with our own weapons. This is my way. And at least to one person, I have shown that we can be good without god. And he showed it to others. Bonus points.

Yeah, nice one.
I think that sometimes we as a community talk 'politically' rather than 'personally'... if you know what I'm saying here?

As a community we do often.. and that's needed.. but when I see the chance to get personal, I take it.. it might not 'change the world'.. but it can show a single person atheists are not worthy of the mistrust we've had heaped on us. The fact that he writes columns and shot that message in print was a bonus.

Actually, not really. If they are right, we'll all get a chance to convert after we die. Awfully nice of them, don't you think?

-Triften 

It was very well done, and it was a very good idea. If there's one thing I absolutely love, it is shattering stereotypes and standards. Human growth is one of the most beautiful things to witness, I think. The problem with most theists is (and I am guilty of it myself) we get bored easily. We don't really care about statistics, studies, reports, investigations, or anything that involves something we already have an opinion about (thus the continued stereotyping of atheists as being immoral dispite massive amounts of evidence to the contrary). If there's one thing we all love, though, it's a good story. We can overlook facts and figures, but it's another thing entirely to ignore another human being staring us in the face (although there are those who even manage that...).

I think you'll find that a lot people who are theists aren't the "sinners in the hands of an angry god" types. They realize the value of human life, and they also believe in a god who values human life. You can tell when you go to a church what kind it is, because they'll inevitably teach about one of two things: they'll either stick you with the guilt trip about how no one lives up to god's perfect standards, and judgment day and all that, or they will emphasize their god's desire to save mankind. I would imagine that the writer of the article you wrote to was probably one of the latter Christians. Some people, however, just don't see the beauty in the world. I don't know that I'll ever really understand why.

Can't say I blame you, really. There are some crazy ass beliefs floating around out there.

Amen [sic]. I have to say, you are already one of my favorite people here, and I barely know you at all.

Would you mind explaining to me how there could possibly be a difference?

Faith is faith.  Either you have a rational explanation for your (seemingly, as presented) irrational "faith", or else you have no faith at all, in anything.

Same question to the Jesus-in-leathers-dude, who's name I cannot see right now while making this reply.......

Atheists are against Fundys, Atheists are for GOD, ..... a message from the awaking sheep ..... We are all god, no more fundy god, god is 100 % ME/YOU/ALL. All is god.

Lets stop saying just the word GOD. It doesn't work in world wide communicating. Can we ever get beyond this communication problem ? God what again ? Fundy god ? Atheist god ? WTF ?  NO GOD ?, define god please , before you speak that word ....  no one as yet has uttered the word god with any total sense. Use adjectives please .... WHICH GOD ?????

I have 'faith' that when I turn on my computer, it will in fact turn on. I have 'faith' that when I wake up tomorrow the sun will still  be churning along. Both of these events have been demonstrated over and over. I am prety confident that the sun will in fact be there tomorrow. And my typing this post shows my'faith' in my computer was well deserved.

 Faith

In truth, most Atheists would probably love to 'just get along'. As I'd assume most Christians would. However, Theism does have a lions share of control in our country, even at the expense of the majority. Example: Stem Celll Research. Both the House and the Senate approved the bill. But Bush is playing the Veto card. At the expense of the majority of Americans. Personal Faith is simply put.. your business. You can dislike or disapprove of abortion. Or gays. Jerry Springer said it best. 'If you don't like gays.. don't date them.' I'm not saying I know your personal beliefs on these topics. I'm referring to the stereotype Christian belief.

I'm in complete agreement that both sides can be confrontational. But much like the African-Americans who had to fight for equality for something they had no control over, Atheists need to fight for equality. A great example..

Sherman: What will you do to win the votes of the Americans who are atheists?

Bush: I guess I'm pretty weak in the atheist community. Faith in God is important to me.

Sherman: Surely you recognize the equal citizenship and patriotism of Americans who are atheists?

Bush: No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God.

Sherman (somewhat taken aback): Do you support as a sound constitutional principle the separation of state and church?

Bush: Yes, I support the separation of church and state. I'm just not very high on atheists.

 Replace the word Atheist with the word African-American and you can see why groups like the Response Squad are needed. I want to get along. And in all fairness, religious people have shot doctors and flown planes into skyscrapers. WE do things like blood drives and autism research funding. I'm not in any way saying that Atheists have never done anything morally wrong. Just not in the name of their lack of faith. The following quotation from the Nobel prize winning physicist Steven Weinberg has become well known, but it is so devastatingly true that it is worth quoting again and again:

“With or without [religion] you’d have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, it takes religion.”

Faith is this: holding a belief without evidence

In this way you cannot have 'faith' in yourself.  You know how you will act in a given circumstance, or roughly how you will act, based on how you have acted.  What I do in the case of a fire or in witnessing a robbery and speculating on what I might do or speculating on how I don't know what I'd do until it happened is not faith.  There is no 'faith' in the unknown.  The unknown is just that.  It requires no faith to be ignorant of something.

The Atheist, I'm sure you know (but I'll tell you again), has no faith.  Faith is not required to not believe in something for which there is no evidence.  You don't require faith to not believe in Zeus or Thor or the Invisible Pink Unicorn.  There is simply no evidence for their existence and you do not believe in them.  In this way do Atheists not believe in your god or any god.  Faith is holding a belief without evidence.  The Atheist has no belief and that requires no evidence.  There is no burden of proof on the skeptic if the claim the skeptic does not accept has no evidence itself.  There is no evidence for god, thus belief in god would require faith and non-belief would be the position of a rational person.  Atheists not only don't share your faith, but have no faith at all.

Faith does not necessitate religion, but it can.  Perhaps you do irrationally believe in a god.  Perhaps you follow no religion.  Religion, however, does necessitate faith, unless you pay lip service to the particular traditions of a religion without believing in god or a 'higher power'.  There is a reason why I can ask of what faith someone is and in response be told what religion that person belongs to.  People attach their faith to their religion and their religion to their faith.  You cannot believe in the Christian god without being Christian.  You cannot believe in Yaweh without being Jewish.  You cannot believe in Allah without being Muslim.  You cannot believe in Krishna without being Hindu.  If you purport to have faith in a high power and follow no religion it would be ridiculous for you to then state that you believe in a religion's particular god.  There is no president to believe in the god of a religion if you are not of that religion.  How can you extricate a god from a religion?  Essentially, you cannot, or you have your own new, personal god.  Oddly, people can believe in these personal gods and can also be of a particular religion (in the case of the monotheistic religions).  Christians often ignore a great deal of the biblical nature of their god, insist they have a personal relationship with it, and maintain to still be Christians.  If you take the Christian god and purport to believe in it and not be a Christian it is very silly.  The essential point here is that there is no 'HUGE' difference, as you suggest, between faith and religion, but they do not have to be one in the same.  They are, however, often one in the same.

I'm very sure you know exactly how to agree or disagree with me, but as you are incorrectly equivocating different meanings of faith with each other you are merely ignoring what I've written. I have not redefined faith. I have offered the application of faith as concerns faith in the belief of gods. When you talk about having faith in oneself, this is not the same at all. I won't put up with this sort of dishonest.  You have commited a fallacy, you have not proven your point.

I do not need to be a fireman to know that I will try to get away from the fire. This has no bearing on what I pointed out. You equivocated one use of faith with another with the intention of proving something. You offered an argument and committed a fallacy. Speculating about what I might do is not a matter of faith. Here, you don't even make sense.

What exactly do you mean here? I have made no assumptions and I gave quite enough reason for anyone to think that faith can necessitate religion. I have not made 'so many assumptions' or 'judgments' in only two sentences. I did not even suggest that you indeed believe in a god, but it is certain that such a belief would be irrational, that's not assuming anything (or as you might say, judge). I am not offering an assumption about god belief. I am offering the fact that god belief is irrational based on the definition of faith. It is simply the only logical conclusion to draw. It is not reasonable to believe something for which there is no proof.

Follower of Christ would be a label if we used it to describe followers of Christ rather than the word Christian, which means follower of Christ.

I stand by what I said. A Christian is a person who believes in the Christian god. You may look up the accepted definitions of religion and you'll find that when I state that the god cannot be extricated from the religion, what I say it true. It cannot be. To believe in the Christian god you must believe in the nature of the god as described in the bible or by a Christian religious institution. To believe in the Christian god, that is, you must also believe in the things that god is purported to do, to be able to do, etc. If you don't, where exactly is the Christian god in your belief? I was fairly explicit with regards to my point.

We refer to the Christian religion (or faith, where faith is used to mean religion). Being Christian is to be a member of a religion.

Religion is not a religious institution. If you meant to talk about religious institutions, you should have said so. You cannot equate religion with religious institution.

Thank you. You've managed to post while ignoring what has been posted before or you would not have made the categorical fallacy you have.

On topic:
Excellent job, Jesterspace!

Edit: Aparently I repeated myself! 

A few quick points.

1) My avatar pic: Done in honor of Halloween, a celebration (to me) where as a kid I got candy, and as an adult I get to have parties with my friends and dress silly without funny looks. After the holiday, I will be returning to my normal pic

2) Remember the topic of this particular forum thread.

3) However the conversation is interesting. Might I reccomend taking it to another spot... even making a thread?

1) Thanks.. I'm a longtime devotee of the Rocky Horror show. And yes I can see how it could be seem as offensive to some. Sarah Silverman? I knew of the Kathy Griffin thing, but I've been really lately lately and haven't had the time to keep up on everything.

2) I was primarily referring to the exchanges you were having with others.

3) Hmm... maybe general convwersations or Atheist vs Theist.

Thanks, man. Props for coming here and expresing your views.