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Response to a Falun Dafa Practitioner

Posted on: July 7, 2007 - 9:28am
inspectormustard
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Response to a Falun Dafa Practitioner

Just as an aside to anyone else who tries to read this, there's a lot of odd sounding language. Adherants would say that these short notes are not accurate, and I should use the actual text. That would make this post even longer than it already is, so here is some rough translations of the basic lingo:

Falun Gong/Dafa : the name of the religion 

 Practitioner/cultivator : Falun Dafa adherant

Cultivation : Reading the falun dafa books, doing the exercises, and living as best as possible according to

 Truth, compassion, benevolence : the core virtues of Falun Gong

Right fruit : level of cultivation

Ordinary people/person/human : inside word for non-practitioners

Demon : Communists, people who are overtly disruptive to the ideals of Falun Gong

Karma : Considered to be an actual spirutual tar which is built up by either accidentally or purposfully "sinning," though sin is rarely used.

Virtue : A substance made of "goodness," acrued by being a good person

Talk23 wrote:

You did ask some pretty deep questions lately and I'd like to try to have some better discussion about them than what is possible on the discussion boards.

In writing this, I'm assuming you genuinely want to discuss this matter. If not, you can just delete this message. Either way, please remember that I'm only talking about things from my own limited understanding. Also, I hope you understand that I'm not criticizing you about being atheist or trying to make you believe the way I do. Just discussing things.

First you asked: If one sees something bad and does nothing, are they in error? If so, why don't benevolent beings prevent wrongdoing? If not, what is benevolence? Have you ever known anyone to achieve right fruit?

At a low level it seems that the answers to your questions will just run around in circles, conflicting one another. The way I see it, that's just human thinking at the level of an ordinary person. I used to have such questions, but I never gave up hope that sensible answers would come. I did find them in Zhuan Falun.


Some other things you said: "The books do not illuminate benevolence, only an idea of benevolence which seems to be attained through inaction."
and
"Furthermore, the idea of karma shown in the books is incalculable. To live a-karmically, one must attain sight. To truely see, one must attain a level of cultivation no one I have ever found has achieved"

I'm not sure what you mean by "illuminate" but Zhuan Falun does give me a better understanding of benevolence. My understanding of inaction is that it refers to something like "attain without intent". Practically impossible when using ordinary human thinking. This is the part where I am reminded of Master's words in Lunyu, "In order to explore this domain, humankind must fundamentally change its conventional thinking."

Regarding the incalculability of karma: I agree that ordinary people, and most cultivators, cannot accurately calculate karma. But, that does not prevent a person from trying to live according to good principles. Similarly, no one can accurately calculate how many gallons of water there are in the world's oceans, but that doesn't stop them from sailing ships.

About living a-karmically: That sounds like an oxymoron to me. It's certainly not something you read in Zhuan Falun. Furthermore, even if a person can truly see the difference between right and wrong, is he able to make the right choice? Will he not give in to temptation sometimes? Cultivation is not as easy as some people imagine.

The thing is, though, I think the constant winding up in cultivation leads to a kind of passive self-hatred. What I mean is that, according to the books, no small infraction may be overlooked. Even thought karma, something most people would never consider as a means of doing wrong. Of course, cultivators are held to a higher standard than most people. It is this ratcheting of standards which I believe to be harmful.

Talk23 wrote:


About not knowing anyone who has attained a level of cultivation where they can truly see: I don't think there is a direct correlation like that. Also, I think that if a person were to attain such a level or ability, he could no longer stay in this world, nor would he want to.

Perhaps not, but it seems that of anyone who truely wanted to save people and really show how good cultivation is, it would be Li Hongzhi who would step up to James Randi's challenge to demonstrate supernatural abilities. 

Talk23 wrote:


My overall impression of your comments is that it seems that when you read Zhuan Falun (as I understand you to have said), you might have had some intent to find something to criticize. Or perhaps while reading, you were not believing what was said. This brings to mind another quote from Lunyu, "'The Buddha Fa' is most profound; among all the theories in the world, it is the most intricate and extraordinary science." This quote indicates to me that the Buddha Fa will not be easily understood, especially if you study it with a certain intent. How could you attain something as profound as that if you study it with some intent? (Reference your own comment about attaining through inaction.)

Before adopting a certain belief people should always use the eye of detached skepticism. (To other readers, attainment through inaction is a notion which is carried over from the Tao almost verbatim.) 

Talk23 wrote:



My own understanding of studying the Fa is that it is best done with a clear mind. Learning what you're ready to learn. The more I read with a clear mind, the more I understand.

These are just a few things I thought of. We can talk more if you want.

Yes. Obviously I am calling the credability of Mr. Li into question. There is very little scientific evidence to say that he is who he says he is, save for his own word and those who follow his teachings.

 

Finally, to those who others who read this post I would ask that if you reply you used your very best behavior. Falun Dafa is still under heavy persecution from the Chinese government, and so followers are used to hearing things like "evil cult" from the communist party. In fact, I wouldn't be suprised if one of their paid trolls dropped by to leave some garbage. A quick bit of research will reveal just how crazy the CCP has gotten. To my knowledge there are two films which dramatize the persecution, though I have yet to see them.

‹ Christmas vs Xmas Is this true? ›

Posted on: July 10, 2007 - 2:04am #1
Talk25
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Some clarification

Thanks Inspectormustard for your invitation to this board and for your thoughtful comments. I'd like to clarify a few things first.

Some people consider Falun Dafa (a.k.a. Falun Gong) to be a religion. We do not. While it is of the Buddha School, it is not part of the Buddhist religions. Falun is translated as Law Wheel. Dafa is translated as Great Law (loosely translated as Law and Principles). Gong is a type of energy. Falun Dafa is loosely translated as "The Great Way of the Law Wheel". Falun Gong can be translated as Law Wheel Chi Gong.

I disagree with your definition of demon. It implies that Falun Dafa has "enemies". It is my belief that Falun Dafa is the pure land, and no one is worthy of being an enemy of Falun Dafa.

Please, self hatred is the furthest thing from Falun Dafa. We just do our best to improve according to our own understandings of the teachings. I fail to see how holding oneself to high standards could be considered harmful. Please explain.

It seems you are missing the point of cultivation when you are too concerned about supernatural capabilities. This is not the purpose of cultivation at all. As I see it, it's just a phenomenon some people experience and Teacher Li is explaining about it. Besides, they're most likely not what you'd expect, so you might not even recoginze it if you saw it. JMO.

Nothing wrong with skepticism.

One of the videos is called Sandstorm. It is fiction, but very good. http://www.sandstormmovie.com/home.php

The other video is called Shake the World. It is basically a documentary of the early days of the persecution, told in a story format. http://www.shenzhoufilm.com/

The world needs Truthfulness, Compassion, Tolerance.
Falun Dafa is good.


Posted on: July 10, 2007 - 9:26pm #2
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Welcome, Talk25. That's

Welcome, Talk25.

That's fascinating!

When you get a chance, we'd love it if you'd hop over to General Conversation, Introductions and Humor and introduce yourself. 

We look forward to your contributions here as you will bring a truly unique perspective. 

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Posted on: July 12, 2007 - 11:54pm #3
Talk25
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Thanks for the invitation

Susan, I'm glad to talk to anyone about Falun Dafa, but my browser is not compatible with rationalresponder website. It crashes whenever I try to change pages.

Pretty soon, I think Falun Dafa will become more widely known in the world. In the mean time, you can learn more about it at www.falundafa.org. Everything is free to download and you don't have to register or make a password.  I recommend the book China Falun Gong to people who are just curious. It's not too long and talks about just some basic stuff, JMO. The book practitioners study is called Zhuan Falun (Turning the Law Wheel). It's the main book of Master Li's teachings and contains everything, except the exercise instructions which are in the other book I mentioned.

Another website is www.clearwisdom.net. It's sort of the official website. Most of Master's lectures can be found there and there's a lot of stuff written by practitioners, including first hand experiences of torture at the hands of Chinese officials.

I'll take this opportunity to briefly tell you my opinion about athiests. Most of the athiests I've talked to are rational people who genuinely care about others. However I think it's incorrect to directly associate belief in god or gods with violent behavior, as many athiests seem to believe. The thinking seems to go like this: Religions believe in "God". Religions are responsible for  "Holy Wars", Jihad, Crusades, Inquisitions, etc, etc, etc. Therefore, belief in gods causes violence.

This thinking is too shallow, the way I see it. It is a simplistic model that does not take into consideration a lot of other things. Many wars and other violent acts are not caused by religions. For instance, the 100 million people who have died as a direct result of communism, which is officially athiest (I'm not blaming athiests). Yet there does seem to be a single characteristic with all of these violent acts, that to me seems a more likely cause of the violence. That single thread is intollerance. It doesn't matter whether a person believes in gods or not, as long as she can tolerate differences of opinion there shouldn't be any violence.

Some athiests have this saying, if you say god exists, you have to prove it with scientific methods. Again, I disagree. Belief in gods is not in the realm of science. Similarly, I hold that beilef that gods do not exist is also not in the realm of science. Neither position can be proven or disproven by science. JMO

Anyway, those are just some of my opinions and don't necessarily have anything to do with Falun Dafa.

Falun Dafa is good.

m

The world needs Truthfulness, Compassion, Tolerance.
Falun Dafa is good.


Posted on: July 13, 2007 - 10:36pm #4
Susan
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Talk25 wrote: Susan, I'm

Talk25 wrote:

Susan, I'm glad to talk to anyone about Falun Dafa, but my browser is not compatible with rationalresponder website. It crashes whenever I try to change pages.

Try downloading and using FireFox.  Also, be sure to select the default "theme" (gray) in your account.

Also on your account page, click on the "edit" tab and deselect"Stickam Room" and maybe a few more.  That will make your pages easier to load.

Regarding the rest of your post, I agree that intolerance is at the root of the problem with violence.  Unfortunately, many religions teach intolerance.  Many times the intolerance is of anything that does not completely agree with their stance.  Intolerance of other belief systems; intolerance of others' life choices; intolerance of others' moral values; intolerance of non-belief.

Alas, this intolerance sometimes gives some the feeling of superiority and authority.  They feel a need to force their beliefs and values onto others by legislation or, if you will, conquering those who believe differently. 

The RRS wouldn't be here if everyone respected everyone else's beliefs/non-beliefs, kept their religious beliefs out of government and our schools (and off my doorstep and windshield!)   Sadly, that's far in the future.

 

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Posted on: July 14, 2007 - 1:44am #5
Talk25
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Agree

Susan, I couldn't agree with you more... except, the future may be here a lot sooner than you think. Smiling

The world needs Truthfulness, Compassion, Tolerance.
Falun Dafa is good.