Alvin Plantinga
Hello. You philosophy buffs are probably familiar with Plantinga. He's famous for a new version of the ontological argument, a defense against Mackie's argument from evil, and the idea that naturalism and evolution, when combined, create a nonsensical belief. Have you guys found any especially powerful criticisms of his work? I'll outline some of his arguments here for ease of reference.
The ontological argument:
- By definition a maximally great being is one that exists necessarily and necessarily is omniscient, omnipotent and perfectly good. (Premise)
- Possibly a maximally great being exists. (Premise)
- Therefore, possibly it is necessarily true that an omniscient, omnipotent and perfectly good being exists (By 1 and 2)
- Therefore, it is necessarily true that an omniscient, omnipotent and perfectly good being exists. (By 3 and S5)
- Therefore, an omniscient, omnipotent and perfectly good being exists. (By 4 and since necessarily true propositions are true.)
His rebuttal of Mackie's argument states that, basically, God has no control of our freedom and that we are naturally "otherworldly depraved." It doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
The evolutionary argument against naturalism states:
Since the probability of natural selection having favored minds that would possess true metaphysical beliefs (such as naturalism) is inscrutable or very low, then believing in evolution and naturalism is self-defeating.
(I probably have not done full justice to these arguments, but you get the idea).
An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded.
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That the scientific picture of the world (big bang, naturalistic evolution etc) is true but a God is responsible for it all, perhaps necessarily?
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That the scientific picture of the world (big bang, naturalistic evolution etc) is true but a God is responsible for it all, perhaps necessarily?
There's nothing about any scientific theory that requires a god. "God" is unnecessarily added on, due to a theistic desire for this to be so....
"Hitler burned people like Anne Frank, for that we call him evil.
"God" burns Anne Frank eternally. For that, theists call him 'good.'
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That would be an argument against the 'necessary' claim.
They could still believe in a theistic theory of evolution, evolution as proved by science and theism as 'given' by another approach leaving a worldview that involves both. I think that this is how most moderates see things. It is also the official position of the Catholic Church if I am not mistaken.
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That would be an argument against the 'necessary' claim.
Right. Which is the goal.
They could still believe in a theistic theory of evolution, evolution as proved by science and theism as 'given' by another approach leaving a worldview that involves both. I think that this is how most moderates see things. It is also the official position of the Catholic Church if I am not mistaken.
It is. But the problem is, what's the motivation? Is the motive a scientific one?
If we've deciced that 'god' is not a necesssary part of the hypothesis, then we have to ask: why retain it?
"Hitler burned people like Anne Frank, for that we call him evil.
"God" burns Anne Frank eternally. For that, theists call him 'good.'
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They will be using science to shape an accurate worldview.
Presumably they have separate motivating reasons for believing in God.
From there it's just a case of combining the two into one single worldview. God created the Darwinian universe! Yay!
What's more, God can potentially plug any gaps in the theory.
I think it's a very sensible and pragmatic approach for one who is happy to live to their Christian upbringing to a sensible degree. It's only if they put this theology under philosophical scrutiny (which they might never have to do) that problems will emerge. All my motivations for finding God refutations are to oppose fundamentalism. Fundamentalists derive things like ethics from their theology. Moderates are more open to change their theology based on their ethics so if I had an ethical disagreement with a moderate then I could debate purely on ethical/secular terms. It would be unlikely that they would bring God into the conversation as their theology depends on 'good ethics' rather than 'good ethics' depending on their theology.
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They will be using science to shape an accurate worldview.
How so, when naturalism doesn't require a 'god'?
Presumably they have separate motivating reasons for believing in God.
One ought to question whether is it this desire then, that is behind their desire to keep 'god' in the equation when 'god' is unnecessary.
From there it's just a case of combining the two into one single worldview. God created the Darwinian universe! Yay!
But what is the 'theistic' worldview other than an unjustified assertion, combined with secularism?
What's more, God can potentially plug any gaps in the theory.
But this is the same thing as saying "I don't know" so again, what value does 'god' play here, scientifically?
I think it's a very sensible and pragmatic approach for one who is happy to live to their Christian upbringing to a sensible degree.
It can only be a sensible approach if 'god' makes sense as a term. It can only be a pragmatic approach if 'god' adds something to the equation.
"Hitler burned people like Anne Frank, for that we call him evil.
"God" burns Anne Frank eternally. For that, theists call him 'good.'
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Doesn't that strike you as odd?
Intellectual dishonesty from a theist? Not really. Its hard for a Christian apologist and/or a Christian Philosopher to remain honest, since dishonesty comes so natural for a Christian. Odd? na, just another day in the life a Christian trying desperately to defend his God.
I'm not aware of any viable theistic evolutionary theory....
I argued this in class the other day. I said, to even postulate that a God directed Evolution is to change the theory itself. Evolution, properly conceived, is a purposeless process that is unguided by any sentient being. The whole idea behind evolution, is that...to quote Dennett, show that all of life can be explained via cranes building cranes without any appeal to skyhooks (I hope you have read Darwins Dangerious Idea, otherwise you will probably miss the reference).
"In the high school halls, in the shopping malls, conform or be cast out" ~ Rush, from Subdivisions
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todangst wrote:Doesn't that strike you as odd?Intellectual dishonesty from a theist? Not really. Its hard for a Christian apologist and/or a Christian Philosopher to remain honest, since dishonesty comes so natural for a Christian. Odd? na, just another day in the life a Christian trying desperately to defend his God.
I don't just mean the intellectual dishonesty, I mean the ease with which we are able to point out errors.. seriously, did it take more than 30 seconds to see a problem?
I'm not aware of any viable theistic evolutionary theory....
I argued this in class the other day. I said, to even postulate that a God directed Evolution is to change the theory itself.
Yes, because there's no telelogy involved in evolution. In addition, why would a 'god' use such a slow process to achieve a goal anyway?
What I mean by this is this: as per the bible, the goal of 'creation' was to create man.... so, why achieve this through billions of years through evolution?
Evolution, properly conceived, is a purposeless process that is unguided by any sentient being. The whole idea behind evolution, is that...to quote Dennett, show that all of life can be explained via cranes building cranes without any appeal to skyhooks (I hope you have read Darwins Dangerious Idea, otherwise you will probably miss the reference).
No, I know the reference to cranes.... you can't appeal to intelligence as the solution for the existence of intelligence!
"Hitler burned people like Anne Frank, for that we call him evil.
"God" burns Anne Frank eternally. For that, theists call him 'good.'
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I specifically used the word 'motivating reasons' as I don't think anyone can come to theistic belief on purely rational grounds. However, I'll tell you why it's pragmatically sensible and intellectually honest.
An acceptance of science is an acceptence of the results that scientific study has found about the natural world. Questions of God are not scientific questions but metaphysical. All the arguments for/against might be presented with scientific facts but they ultimately depend on a priori arguments.
The scientific method is a simple enough idea that we can all relate to. Make a theory and test to see if the theory works. This will prove or disprove the theory. Metaphysics is a lot lot more complex. There's no simple method and there's no quick 'n clear way of choosing the best theory. Scientific facts are seen as indisputable. Metaphysical theories are seen as completely open questions. Whether one should just accept purely scientific facts is seen as an open question and when people see that many day to day experiences like emotions and ethics aren't clearly explained by science, or atleast you can get a clear grasp of them without using the official scientific method, they become open minded to what other kinds of knowledge that one can obtain without science.
This sounds like idiocy to you because you're so familiar with these philosophical issues. I think that's a bit unfair on non-philosophers as we haven't necessarily grasped their area of expertise. I even think that Richard Dawkins makes similar errors based on his scientific background as he seems to treat theology as questions of science rather than questions of metaphysics...
Another reason is that we are taught a good grasp of science in school and are familiar with its results and successes. I'm not sure what it's like in the states but in England we do not teach philosophy in compulsory education. We aren't trained in logical fallacies, we have not studied the theory behind the scientific method, we aren't taught general methods in epistemology formally. We get some basic examples of epistemology taught within other subjects like history and science but no unified theory and no specific techniques to tell truth from falsity in general. Some of us carry on to study philosophy formally, others of us get a grasp for techniques through practical experience - arguing and disputing with people. This won't be for everyone.
So I see this moderatism as pragmatic because it gives a metaphysical picture which might be shown to be flawed when placed under the philosophers microscope, but it's 'close enough' for most people need to give a worldview to fit their practical lives. The only way they could improve upon it would be to dogmatically accept the views of a philosopher or study philosophy and grasp the issues themselves. I don't think any philosopher would approve of the former and we can all understand why people would rather spend their time doing something other than the latter. (I also liked what Chaos said in the "Philosophy Degree" thread about the consequences of becoming a philosopher! )
If we were to bring philosophy back into mainstream education...
Well, I know I've signed a petition to my government. Have you?
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I specifically used the word 'motivating reasons' as I don't think anyone can come to theistic belief on purely rational grounds.
And I specifically spoke about the failure of the 'god' hypothsis as a scientific theory, and specifically stated that motivations to retain the 'theory' were clearly not scientific.
It has no potential as an explanatory device.
We're having a disconnect, and my experience, things always go downhill from here.
However, I'll tell you why it's pragmatically sensible and intellectually honest.
Sorry, but for me, to be pragmatic is to work, to have an observable effect or outcome. Nothing about any 'god' hypothesis can be pragmatic. There's no legitimate grounds for including a 'god hypothesis' in any scientific endeavor.
Please understand that I am talking about the scientific method, and what works and what does not work within the method. If someone's motivation to retain a 'hypothesis' is a personal desire that otherwise is not supported by the data, then one is without any scientific justification for holding to it.
Whether one should just accept purely scientific facts is seen as an open question and when people see that many day to day experiences like emotions and ethics aren't clearly explained by science,
Whether or not people wish to accept 'scientific facts' is moot, because I am talking about the role of 'god' in hypotheses.
"Hitler burned people like Anne Frank, for that we call him evil.
"God" burns Anne Frank eternally. For that, theists call him 'good.'
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I think I see what you're saying.
I agree with you that there's no God in science.
To answer the original question then:
A 'theistic evolution' isn't a scientific theory, it's more of a worldview combining a scientific outlook and a theology as coherently as it possibly can!
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I think I see what you're saying.
I agree with you that there's no God in science.
To answer the original question then:
A 'theistic evolution' isn't a scientific theory, it's more of a worldview combining a scientific outlook and a theology as coherently as it possibly can!
I'd agree with that, except that the only problem is that there is no 'worldview' other than a naturalistic one... whatever 'god parts' are added are either anthropomorphic (an angry punishing skydaddy) or deistic/pantheistic in the Spinozian sense (i.e. purely natural).
The theist can choose to call this 'god' but when it comes time to assess the 'value added' portion from anything other than naturalism, the scale reads: Zero.
There's no 'there' there.
"Hitler burned people like Anne Frank, for that we call him evil.
"God" burns Anne Frank eternally. For that, theists call him 'good.'
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I think that misses the point in a way...
I mean, what you just said there was basically asserting naturalism.
There are alternative metaphysical theories to naturalism.
I agree with your naturalism but to say one has a different worldview is to speak in a context without the naturalistic conclusion.
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I don't just mean the intellectual dishonesty, I mean the ease with which we are able to point out errors.. seriously, did it take more than 30 seconds to see a problem?
Well, all Philosophers have their retarded moments. My two favorates are by Descartes and Kant. When it was brought to Descartes attention that the people of Canada did not have an idea of God, he responded with "they do, they just don't know it yet." Shut the hell up Descartes, did a rock fall on your head?
Kant's is even more stupid. When it was brought to Kant's attention that his theory of ethics had the concequence that you should never lie even if it was to protect a woman who was being chased, he responded the following way: if you are hidding a woman in your house and the man comes to your door and asks if you know where she is, and you lie, she might get scared are run out of the house, to which the man will chase her and kill her.
Yeah, or she will stay put, you stupid idiot. Its as if great Philosophers lapse into absolute absurdity at times.
No, I know the reference to cranes.... you can't appeal to intelligence as the solution for the existence of intelligence!
???
"In the high school halls, in the shopping malls, conform or be cast out" ~ Rush, from Subdivisions
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todangst wrote:I don't just mean the intellectual dishonesty, I mean the ease with which we are able to point out errors.. seriously, did it take more than 30 seconds to see a problem?Well, all Philosophers have their retarded moments.
Is a whole career a moment?
No, I know the reference to cranes.... you can't appeal to intelligence as the solution for the existence of intelligence!
???
I'm using one of Dennet's own examples: that solving the 'mystery' of the appearance of intelligence on earth must come from avoiding an appeal to intelligence as the solution... intelligence must be explaned by looking at non intelligent processes and how they can cumulate into creating intelligence.
Appealing to intelligence (god) as the origin of intelligence (man) does nothing.
"Hitler burned people like Anne Frank, for that we call him evil.
"God" burns Anne Frank eternally. For that, theists call him 'good.'
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There are alternative metaphysical theories to naturalism.
Viable ones?
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Is a whole career a moment?
When Plantinga is not doing Philosophy of Religion, he is doing decent Philosophy. He put forth a theory of justification known as proper function and he has worked on theories of modality.
I'm using one of Dennet's own examples: that solving the 'mystery' of the appearance of intelligence on earth must come from avoiding an appeal to intelligence as the solution... intelligence must be explaned by looking at non intelligent processes and how they can cumulate into creating intelligence.Appealing to intelligence (god) as the origin of intelligence (man) does nothing.
Exactly
"In the high school halls, in the shopping malls, conform or be cast out" ~ Rush, from Subdivisions
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There are alternative metaphysical theories to naturalism.
Correct, there is always supernaturalism. However, supernaturalism is incoherent. Think of it this way: There is an alternative to evolutionary theory. However, we all know creationism is false.
"In the high school halls, in the shopping malls, conform or be cast out" ~ Rush, from Subdivisions
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Strafio wrote:
There are alternative metaphysical theories to naturalism.Viable ones?/quote]
Lol! When you put it that way...
It's just that when you said there's no viable "theistic evolution" theory it made it sound like the attack was on the combination rather than just at theism in general. After all, worldviews that combine theism with evolutionary theory are more viable than theistic ones that don't.
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The evolutionary argument against naturalism states:
Since the probability of natural selection having favored minds that would possess true metaphysical beliefs (such as naturalism) is inscrutable or very low, then believing in evolution and naturalism is self-defeating.
(I probably have not done full justice to these arguments, but you get the idea).
I did a neat little YouTube video on that argument:
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Plantiga's 'possibly necessary' argument is featured in the Wiki article on Ontological Arguments
He says it is possible that there is a necessary being.
It seems he is implying as the metaphysical question hasn't been settled or that because we make human errors and it's possible we've made a mistake on it then it is possible that "there is a necessary being" is a true proposition.
However, when you look at it like that, anything is possibly necessary.
In my opinion, it begs the question.
If a being is necessary then it is contradictory for a worldview to not include it. Therefore it is provable. If it is not provable then it is not possible for such a being to be necessary. In saying that a necessary being is possible then you are saying that it is possible to prove which is only possible if it is true.
It is not like an empirical/contingent being whose proof might come in the form of new evidence.
So for Plantiga's proof to work he needs to prove that a necessary being is possible, i.e. prove that a being is necessary and this takes him back to square one. Right?
edit: It turns out this "begging the question" objection has been raised by other philosophers too.
Great minds think alike I guess!
Yeah, it seems like he could've just skipped premise 2 & it's followup altogether. Assuming that that is an accurate paraphrase of the argument (or a direct quote), he programs the working argument into the definition in the first premise by defining it as "necessarily" existing. (Well, shit! Who can argue with necessity? ) Even so, "being" is still ambiguous, imo, and he'd have to define "omniscient" and "omnipotent" in a way in which they wouldn't cause contradictions (if that's even viable--limiting them would seem to conflict with "maximally great".
I'm not familiar with his work, but the third argument gets me curious. Anyone have more familiarity with that one? I think my failing there is that I only have a dim grasp of probability. How do you estimate the probability of something like our minds evolving?? And how does the fact that it actually happened factor in? Looking back, it might seem that the odds are 1 in 1, in that sense.
Indeed. I am more curious about the evolutionary argument as well, since it strikes me as blatantly wrong. He is, however, a good philosopher, which means his arguments are not to be dismissed without a thorough rebuttal. I've only recently encountered them, and I have been considering formulating a reply, but I was looking to gather more information from secondary or tertiary sources first.
An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded.
With all due respect, I personally consider Platinga's argument as having the same fatal flaw as the ontological argument itself.
The question is: are we discussing at aconceptual level, or at a real level? Because if we are discussing at a conceptual level, then everything is fine. If we are discussing at the level of physical reality, we have a serious problem.
The S5 axiom, in the way used by Platinga, can be easily contradicted when we are referring to physical, noticeable reality. Basically, its argument would be:
Taking the logical sentence P, we have:
- if P is possibly necessary, then it means that there is at least one real model in which it must be true
- if P would not be true, that real model in which it must be true would be a contradiction
- since something is contradictory in one certain real model, it is contradictory in all real models
Therefore, if something is possibly necessary, then something is necessary.
This usage of the S5 is easy to dismiss, based on the fact that it is contradictory in all real models, IF all models are based on the same logical model; it isn't necessarily contradictory if we use a DIFFERENT logical model (such as creating a logical model in which, for instance, the barber's paradox isn't actually a paradox). The easiest example to notice is in mathematics, where different logical models are used to shape up different kinds of geometries (non-Euclidean ones), for instance, or in the process of creating different operational models with mathematical analysis. Such examples need a certain P to be true, whereas, if that P is true across ALL real models, it would create a contradiction in at least one of them.
Also, real models don't necessarily describe reality as we see it. From what we currently know, there is no other "real" real model but the one that we are currently in. Others are just processes of imagination, either free or through algorithm, which work just well at a concept level, but not in reality.
So basically what Platinga states is that if that supreme being wouldn't exist and have all the characteristics as described, it would create a contradiction in a possible world. Since we can imagine possible worlds in which such contradictions occur, Platinga's mission would now be to prove that those worlds actually exist. And frankly, I for one would rather stick to proving God alone, than countless other possible worlds.
Inquisition - "The flames are all long gone, but the pain lingers on..."
http://rigoromortis.blogspot.com/
I think Plantinga makes for a good stand up comic.
Here's he's only giving us a definition.
Not if the definition leads to an internal contradiction.
And it does. We cannot speak of a 'being' that is devoid of any universe of discourse.
THe argument dies here.
Here's his error: This 'god' is responsible for creating the concept of free will, for granting it to his creation (knowing the consequences) and for shaping it's paramaters, as well as shaping the nature of the person and the environment that the person is in.
Ergo, a creator must be perfectly responsible for his creation.
Even if we take this as true, the fact that the probability is low would not mean that it is impossible.
So as long as evolution remains the best viable theory, this argument fails.
And then we can move on to attacking his claim that the odds are 'low'.... which you can bet is equally misguided and flawed as his other arguments.
actually, supernaturalism is self defeating, so this can only be read as a projection.
No, you've nailed his arguments.
"Hitler burned people like Anne Frank, for that we call him evil.
"God" burns Anne Frank eternally. For that, theists call him 'good.'
As long as the definition itself avoids internal contradiction, such as violating ontology.
Nice point.
Right. I'd consider this another refutation of his argument... I rarely see a theist argument that can't be refuted from multiple perspectives.
Heheh! Yes, the 'possibly necesary' argument is a retreat for theists... it's an implicit acceptance that the original necessary beings arguments fail.
And if they fail, then how can a possible necessary being argument work?
"Hitler burned people like Anne Frank, for that we call him evil.
"God" burns Anne Frank eternally. For that, theists call him 'good.'
Its not a mere opinion, its a demostrable fact. Even more shockingly, anyone with even a dim sense of Modal Logic knows that in the universal model, S5, any proposition which is said to "possibily necessarily exist/be true" is logically equivolant to simply "it is necessarily true." Therefore, Plantinga is merely engaging in sophistry. He is a smart man...I find it hard to believe that he didn't know his argument was question-begging.
"In the high school halls, in the shopping malls, conform or be cast out" ~ Rush, from Subdivisions
You in luck. There is a whole book devoted to Philosophers taking aim at his argument:
His argument does strike you as false...at first. However, it is one of the better theistic arguments. I am currently studying the argument in my "Probability Theory and its Philosophical Applications" classes. To drive drive Plantingas argument home, we need to understand that Plantinga believes that if Naturalism were true, then behaviors...not true beliefs would be selected. Is this true? Well, lets look at an example where it is: Imagine that a man loves cats. Let us also assume that he lives next to a river that is filled with alligators. Let us say that he forms the belief that if he runs away from the river everytime he sees an alligator, he will get to see a cat. In this instance, the man has a false belief...but his behavior is selected by natural selection.
An interesting claim...its probabily false, but I will have to wait and see as the course goes on. Here is Plantinga's essay:
Now, no one argues against the probability calculations. The probability is not what is fallacious...it is the background assumptions.
"In the high school halls, in the shopping malls, conform or be cast out" ~ Rush, from Subdivisions
Oh c'mon, he is a smart guy. He just wasted his life defending a fantasy. He should be pityed more than anything. Nietzsche one said: "We should never forgive Christianity for Pascal." What does this mean? It means that before Christianity gots its claws on Pascal, he was a great mathematician. Christianity got a hold of him, and then he stopped doing legitimite mathematics, and put forth his "wager." The same is true for Plantinga. He could have been a really good philosopher...Christianity claims another poor bastard.
Ah, but he isn't taking aim at evolution. He is taking aim at the conjunction of Evolution with Metaphysical Naturalism. He thinks Theistic Evolution is fine.
"In the high school halls, in the shopping malls, conform or be cast out" ~ Rush, from Subdivisions
We could point out that Christianity was indeed fitter than Greek/Roman rationalism for this very reason!
For good books that critique Plantinga's views, you might like to check out not only Chaoslord's reference, but also "Warrant in Contemporary Epistemology", by Kvanvig, and Graham Oppy's "Ontological Arguments and Belief in God" and "Arguing About Gods". - JL
I will investigate those, but I'd be curious for more feedback. Here is an objection to his argument that I've thought up: naturalistic beliefs did not evolve, so much as they developed after we abandoned the false beliefs we did evolve with: religious/supernatural ones. It seems that the divine has evolved as an explanatory framework for that which we do not understand, so he is definitely right that we can evolve to have false beliefs. However, at that point, biological evolution leaves off and intellectual/critical reasoning take hold. After all, naturalism was accepted only after theism was shown to be for all intents and purposes indefensible, and is surely not a product of evolution so much as philosophical/scientific inquiry. I guess in this sense, we have explored the natural world and utilized methodological naturalism to great effect, and from there went on to philosophical naturalism. So perhaps his argument, in this sense, does not apply, as it would to Fred the caveman who avoids tigers. What do you guys think?
An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded.
I will investigate those, but I'd be curious for more feedback. Here is an objection to his argument that I've thought up: naturalistic beliefs did not evolve, so much as they developed after we abandoned the false beliefs we did evolve with: religious/supernatural ones. It seems that the divine has evolved as an explanatory framework for that which we do not understand, so he is definitely right that we can evolve to have false beliefs. However, at that point, biological evolution leaves off and intellectual/critical reasoning take hold. After all, naturalism was accepted only after theism was shown to be for all intents and purposes indefensible, and is surely not a product of evolution so much as philosophical/scientific inquiry. I guess in this sense, we have explored the natural world and utilized methodological naturalism to great effect, and from there went on to philosophical naturalism. So perhaps his argument, in this sense, does not apply, as it would to Fred the caveman who avoids tigers. What do you guys think?
An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded.
Yes.
Agreed. Ad hoc sophistry at that, as this 'possibly necessarily' is merely a retreat from the original necessary being argument.
That's what dogma does to a mind. Logic be damned.
"Hitler burned people like Anne Frank, for that we call him evil.
"God" burns Anne Frank eternally. For that, theists call him 'good.'
He's a good stand up comic. His intelligence is moot as long as his dogma drives him to arguments that both you and I can deconstruct so easily.
Doesn't that strike you as odd?
Ah, but he isn't taking aim at evolution.
Again, so long as evolution, the science, remains the best viable explanatory theory, his argument fails.
I'm not aware of any viable theistic evolutionary theory....
"Hitler burned people like Anne Frank, for that we call him evil.
"God" burns Anne Frank eternally. For that, theists call him 'good.'