exchanging the mind
Offline hey, i was just thinking about children all over the world that are raised indoctrinated into a certain belief system, whether it be religion, or social stereotypes. for example, i work with children who were sexually abused at a young age, now, as i've learned more and worked more with the kids, all of these kids see adults as perpetrators, and the job that i have is to teach them the best ways to discern if someone is trustworthy or not, the oldest people i work with are 17, these older kids who have been institutionalized for up to 6 years of their life and have been from group home to group home over and over again are constantly taught and shown that not all adults are abusive, as much as these kids are told/shown the truth, and they get real life examples of that truth every day, they still never seem to trust any adult authority figure, some kids live as survivors of their trauma and recover, but most live in the mode of the victim. basically what i'm tryin to portray here is that if a child grows up living in a world that produces a particular belief system in the child that makes them judge things in the world thru their own lenses of their own experience, how strong does some facts have to be to turn that person's mind around, especially if the person feels that without a doubt..that they know the truth... i see this in all the good atheist/theist debates, i am on one side of those debates, but attempting to not look at either side, what does it take to really convince someone who is willing to debate the topic that they are wrong? to me, it definately takes love for the truth, and humility, as in being humble enough to admit that you're wrong, and not just saying it, but believing it, and being willing to let down any followers/ family members that are on your side, and conforming your beliefs to what is true, but if someone lives their life with a particular view, coming to believe a new view is basically the "reborn" experience many talk about in religion, but then it becomes a process, as more things relevant to your old lifestyle come about, you take your new lifestyle to find the best way to handle a situation. so with all that being said, what the hell should we do with our lives!
its really all too much for someone to figure out in a mere 60-100 years of life on earth, those were just some thoughts on my mind, i may add more if something comes up, i hope it atleast made a little bit of sense, i'm not used to writing out my thought process, so yeah! tell me what you think.
-devin
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You MUST be able to convince yourself.
I have never believed in God, I had a couple of bouts with the supernatural (which is expected for a child) but I never believed strongly in what I was saying. My parents did a great job keeping indoctrination away from me, and never pushed Atheism on me, in fact I never even learnt such terms until I was about 15. Even though i've never had such a complete turn-around, I still change my mind on concepts of philosophy frequently as I receive new information.
The RRS crew should be able to comment on this better since they've experienced such changes first hand.
"Character is higher than intellect... A great soul will be strong to live, as well as to think."
-Ralph Waldo Emerson
i appreciate that perspective on it, i wasnt raised indoctrinated to anything, but i do see thru the lens of what i know and have experienced, so in a sense life itself has indoctrinated me, or really, my mind has interpreted my experiences and here i am, how i am today, and that governs my lifestyle, i do agree that i must convince myself, but something has to pose itself to me to inspire me to seek out convincing myself of something. wow, i've never thought in depth about this, but i am now
-devin
If you admit to being Indoctrinated, then you have a problem that you need to fix ASAP. But I think you're just mis-using and underestimating the word
Persuasion takes a certain level of powerful manipulation (mental or physical) to be indoctrination.
E.g. One tactic of indoctrination frequently used on children is the idea of hell, Brian Fleming reminds us that few children would not be absolutely terrified of gnashing of teeth in darkness, and deadly fire and brimstone, such is the concept of Hell - one of the first things children are taught. Through this, children would be subconciously forced to be terrified and begging for salvation from this horror. They are then taught that to avoid it, they must have a personal relationship with, altogether now, Jesus Christ. They are taught that without God one can have no morality, depending on the denomination they are told to angrily and viciously deny the theory of evolution because it is satan's work.
The bottom line is Fear, and Dawkins interviews an old woman in The Root of All Evil who explains these tactics, and how even now (as an Atheist) such concepts still have the power to frighten her. This should really set off alarm bells that a high level of active and malicious psychological manipulation is going on.
It's difficult to get out of this mindset, judging by the very small amount of Atheists in this country. No Atheist that I have ever dealt with attempts to preach ideals to a believer, their main goal of deconversion is to simply get people to think.
A factor unrelated to indoctrination and religion is the simple fact that people HATE being wrong, we have too much pride. I see this in myself very often, and it's something I need to work on, I feel like i've failed myself when i'm wrong - so I sometimes fight the facts. This doesn't happen when I have time to think, such as on a discussion board or essay.
"Character is higher than intellect... A great soul will be strong to live, as well as to think."
-Ralph Waldo Emerson
ok, in other words, we grow up one way, believing that the way of life we live is true (as in the my truth, your truth, and the truth thing) then later on come to find out your truth isnt true, the pride puffs up, and we be ignorant and ignore the facts for our fantasy land, or we decide to change our mind, also the conscious comes into play here, the more we deny the truth about what we believe, it kind of eats at you until you either buckle, or eliminate the guilt completely.
i just see that it is hard to teach an old dog new tricks, especially if he's known the same tricks, and has gotten his needs met with these tricks, i'll respond more but i got to go at the moment
That's basically true, but you only mentioned pride, which is just a minor factor. There is also fear, but the main factor in the complete denial of evidence is complex psychology: having a doctrine jammed down your throat with the idea that Satan is fabricating the opposing evidence and influencing the evil Atheists
I think it goes even deeper than that. Honestly if I wasn't already set to study Astrophysics at college, i'd be interested in studying the psychology of faith, it's rather fascinating. Both majors would eventually get me handed over to the Inquisition though
"Character is higher than intellect... A great soul will be strong to live, as well as to think."
-Ralph Waldo Emerson
yeah if only there was a state that would allow people with opinions of their own to not get lynched, i can kind of see pride and fear go hand in hand, and deeper than that even, because pride brings fear of embarassment, that blended with fear of hell can cause a lot of issues, my example of the abused child is that one way of life was jammed down their throat, causing a lot of trauma in the child, and the child just adapts to that lifestyle, and the percent rate is so low that many abused people never change, and with the job i have i see the kids go thru fear of their abuser as a young child, and that same fear being in them added to pride, and wanting to be tough and always right as their older, just like you said we HATE being wrong, that would be a neat issue to dive into, seeking out why man is so prideful, especially checking out other cultures and how they recieve tough true information, well i gotta go, random people come to my house each time i try to post something useful! i guess thats what happens as a christian that hasnt called anyone or shown up for church in 2 weeks,
-devin