Idea about why theists are statistically happier then atheists.
Offline While learning about Willam James in my normal psychology class i had an idea of why more atheists are statiscally more depressed then theists. It has to do with James's idea of the spiritual self. The spiritual self : "is the inner and subjective being."(frager,fadiman). I have hypothesized that since atheists don't have an automatic spiritual self (theists have what ever their religion is aka they have their religious faith) then they are therefore more depressed unless they develop this spiritual self. So if an atheist develops this spirtual self (getting into a hobby, doing things that make him forget about the outside world (not sure on this statement but this is my understanding of it)) then he probably have the same likely hold of a theist to develop depression. If he does not he has a higher likely hold based on the above statements.
Fellow psychologists: Any ideas? Critisisms? Thanks
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First, the majority of explanations in psychology are multifactoral. Of course having a hobby, purpose, and being involved with something other then yourself is going to be a deterrent to depression and other psychopathology. Also, some research suggests that depressed indivdiuals (more likely dysthymic depression, which is not severe but a consistent low mood) see the world in a more realistic manner than optimists. Their problem is they focus on the negatives while disqualifying all the positive aspects of life. I would ventrue to say that based on their realistic views they would be more likely to be atheists as oppossed to atheism leading to depression.
"Those who think they know don't know. Those that know they don't know, know."
See, I never bought that theists aren't depressed and atheists are stuff. I grew up in the church and half the good little theists I knew were depressed. My mother is the most staunch Catholic I know and she had to be put on medication. When I was going to church I was really depressed. I think depression has less to do with faith or no faith in God and more to do with brain chemistry and circumstance. But I am uneducated in the mystical ways of psychology. I just know what I see and feel.
Ah, the pitter patter of tiny feet in huge combat boots.
Mystical ways of Psychology?? I guess if you believe Dr. Phil is Psychology you would come to that conclusion. Obviously there are going to be theists who are depressed. There are no absolutes when it comes to Psychology because people have complex lives. For example, not everybody in NY on 9/11 developed PTSD. Individuals with pre-existing anxiety disorders were more likely to develop PTSD, but even then all of them did not ALL develop PTSD. Yes, you can be religious and depressed.
Also, brain chemistry is not the only factor that plays a role in depression. What I mean is, people do not just have chemical imbalances because they move in and out of depression and other life circumstances, stresses and the indivdiuals perception will lead to depressed moods. As a result of these factors their brain chemistry may change, which is why some anti-depressents are very effective. However, certain forms of psychotherapy have also shown changes in brain chemistry in those who improved after treatment. Therefore, it is not a permanent chemical imbalance that can only be changed by so called "Reblancing the chemicals."
"Those who think they know don't know. Those that know they don't know, know."
Also, I wonder if this has actually been studied. I know there is literature that supports this idea, in that people who report being more spiritual show less pathology or do better in treatment. However, I don't think there is anything comparing atheists to theists specifically.
"Those who think they know don't know. Those that know they don't know, know."
It was a freaking joke. I was making a point that my response was only my opinion, not based on scientific fact. I have never studied psychology, and therefore, I do not have the scientific knowledge with which to base my opinion.
Ah, the pitter patter of tiny feet in huge combat boots.
Sorry, I am not a mind reader and it is hard to tell based on how you wrote it.
"Those who think they know don't know. Those that know they don't know, know."
but according to Maslow one of the signs of a self-actualized person is seeingthe world in a more realistic way. Which he determined by looking at successful people in the past.
Also about the multifactorial thing, really depends on the psychologist. There are some who dogmatically thing their specfic theory is the one that can explain all things. Such as freud was very adament about this. I've also notice that Cognative-Behavorial psychotheropists (at least the ones i've seen and heard things about) seem to think only in terms of that theory. Now i do think there are more people becoming whats called "eccletic" psychologists who would agree with you and others who have a leaning towards one theory but don't think it explains all things.
What i was trying to show was that one factor in it may be this idea of a spiritual self. That atheists have to work at doing this unlike theists who have an automatic spiritual self in their "faith". I did not mean to say that this is the only reason or this explains it all. I am saying that this could be on thing that seems, at least from a thinking perspective without any research i've read, that might contribute to higher depression rates.
I have a feeling I'm not understanding something correctly and that someone like Todangst is going to rip me a new one. Espceically since I thought it up on my own and it had to be and idea someone else has thought of before.
Sorry for the long post
1. There is not much empirical support for Maslows theory, at least beyond the first two or three stages in the hierarchy.
2. Mulitifactoral does not mean multitheoretical. Most CBT therapist take a more multifactorial approach to an individual's difficulties than most other orientations. This is more specifically called the biopsychosocial model. Any given person has a certain biology and genetics they carry with them, past learning histories and personal experiences, current living environment and life stresses, social support, spirituality, SES, culture, etc......... How these interact together is used to explain current functioning by most individuals who would subscribe to this model. This is different than most psychodynamic therapists who talke in terms of needs, defenses, and conflicts. Although, there are psychodynmic therapists who would take a broader approach.
3. What you are saying about spirituality may play a significant role in depression and looking at this aspect for a particular person may be helpful for them. I also think, based on what you are saying, that working to find or being inventive in finding a purpose/reason/hobby is more rewarding and fulfilling. People who are just given things usually don't appreciate what they have.
"Those who think they know don't know. Those that know they don't know, know."
Rationalschema - I'm unfamiliar with Psychology and I just have a quick question. With regard to the changes in brain chemistry, are saying that changes can occur without any chemical intervention (i.e. Prozac)? If a personal had a mild chemical inbalance, is it possible through therapy alone the change that imbalance? Can people essentially 'talk' themselves out of a chemical inbalance (for lack of a better word)?
If god takes life he's an indian giver
Oh I agree that someone who finds their "spiritual" through own self-discovery will be much more fulfilled and happier, it seems like a logical idea to me.
I wonder if they've done studies on how subjectively and objectively happy theists and happy atheists are happy. What i mean is how happy the two groups all and which one is generally "happier'. I know this would be hard to empircally test but i wonder if atheists are happier and more fulfilled when they are happy. If they where i think it would add some support to my idea i think, because like you said someone who has their spiritual self given tot hem isn't going to be as fulfilled and happy as someone who finds it themself.
It depends what disorder your talking about. Schizophrenia is considered more organic and not amenable to much change without meds. However, these clients can learn to manage their schizophrenia.
Depression and anxiety disorders are very amenable to changes in brain chemistry. In fact, your brain chemistry is changing every minute based on your current experiences. However, your memory and past experiences are also influencing how you percieve your current experience. For instance you will attend to certain information and distort information to fit your pre-existing beliefs about the world.
Before I go off tangent, the skills taught in "real empirically supported psychotherapy" focuses on changing peoples perceptions, environments, coping skills, and behavioral skills. So, if i start behaving differently my environment changes. Since my environment (stimuli) influence my brain activity, my brain activity, which involves chemicals, should change. Even specific behaviors and changes in perception can influence brain chemistry.
Here is a simple example. Some depressed individuals have limited positive or pleasurable activities in their life. They are pretty much isolated and vegetative. When these indivdiuals begin to engage in pleasurable activities their mood begins to improve. One would assume that this activity begins to change brain activity as well as other bodily funcitons.
I hope this wasn't too much. I will gladly explain anything that isn't clear.
"Those who think they know don't know. Those that know they don't know, know."
It makes sense that I would distort new information to fit into pre-existing beliefs. Is that why sometimes its so difficult for people to change their beliefs?
I have to admit that I'm fascinated. I also am not entirely sure what you're talking about.
With the exception of more organic inbalances, we actually have a great deal of power over controlling our perceptions. I know that sounds silly and obvious to a lot of people, but I happen to have a friend who is really depressed but refuses to admit it, or do anything about it. I just trying to understand why she won't do something about it.
Essentially brain chemistry is always changing, correct? Do we manipulate the brain chemistry with our perceptions or do we manipulate our perceptions with the chemistry. I apologize if I'm really off base.
And I'm really sorry for derailing this thread. Perhaps there is a book (preferably lay-man term) that I could look into?
Thanks!
If god takes life he's an indian giver
hmm... yes, there could be any number of reasons why thesists are statistically "happier."
I'm not completely settled on this yet, but I'm leaning toward the notion that this phenomenon of atheist depression happens because nihilism seems to be the logical result of atheism (and the corresponding lack of belief in a post-mortem consciousness). If there is no eternal purpose for life, and no hope of existence beyond death, the blink of an eye that is our life seems absurd: hence depression, suicide, etc. I've heard of an experiment with rats in which two rats are put in water: one is presented with the hope of escape, and one is not. The one with the hope of escape swims the longest before giving up. I don't know if that is just a story or a genuine experiment, but it seems to make sense.
Anyway, I elaborate more on these ideas here: http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/sapient/philosophy_and_psychology_with_chaoslord_and_todangst/7831
Chime in on that thread with your thoughts, if you like. I'm sure you could help me refine my thoughts. Thanks.
Ockham's Razor is only as sharp as you are.
Perhaps it would help to define a term.
Brain chemistry -Any brain activity involving neurotransmitters, formation of new neuronal connections, loss of neuronal connections, changes in speed of connections and processing. In other words, learning and unlearning about our percieved environment.
You are very close. Perceptions are our brain-chemistry. Perceptions are just our method of labeling what happens as the result of brain mechanims. So they are essentially one in the same. So a change in perception is the result of a change in brain chemsitry and vice versa.
I don't know of any lay books covering all of this. I am just combining what all the research suggests. The closest book I can think of is "The Mind and the Brain: Neuroplasticity and the Power of Mental Force" by Jeffrey Schwartz.
As for your friend, there are many possiblitiies, all of which may be true.
1. She is scared about making changes, going through the pain of change.
2. She has low self-efficacy. In other words she does not believe that she is able to do what it takes to make a change. This is common in depressed individuals in that they beleieve they are incapable, they don't do anything right and are failures.
3. She may have tried once to change and failed, which reconfirmed her existing belief that she is worthless and will never do anything right. This could lead to a state where she believes nothing will work.
4. She has very low energy to even attempt to make a change.
5. She is getting reinforced (either positively or negatively) for staying the same.
Most likely all these factore are interacting together along with biology, her previous learning history, current stress, and coping skills.
Sorry, I can get carried away with this stuff.
"Those who think they know don't know. Those that know they don't know, know."
Thanks so much for the info. I think I'd like to check out that book. I do have to admit that its a little difficult for me to wrap my head around (ahem, really bad pun, get it?) I think I may have do a little research on my own to figure this all out.
As for my friend, I'd definitely say #2 and #4 are pretty good. Well, they all are, now tha I think of it.
And don't feel bad for getting carried away, you just gave me a ton of information. Thanks.
If god takes life he's an indian giver