Reductionalism and Morality: Does once cancel out the other?

illeatyourdog
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Reductionalism and Morality: Does once cancel out the other?

Many hold on to the view that Reductionlist Physicalism, or the idea that such aspects about humanity like emotions, beleifs, thoughts, etc. can be reduced to a physical motion, action, or change in the brain.  Although, in many respects, I agree with this view, I also feel that it leads to uncomfortable conclusions that proponents of this view do not want to adhere to.  Which is fair since they see this claim, which they can back up with evidence, as a positive, as do I.  However, I cannot see how talk of morality can even enter this view since they would have to reduce it to some physcial action in the brain meaning that, everyone would, in essence, have their own morality unique to them.  The question I have (as well as will answer) is, if this is morality anymore?  I would say it is not.  If we are going to reduce such notions to actions in the brain, we shoudl also reduce the actions to themselves to what is actually occuring than what we percieve is occuring meaning that, all that there in a case study involving different people with various functioning brains and presenting them with moral dilemmas that have their roots in moral philosophy rather than science, all that is being studied is decesion making.  Nothing more.  The only way proponents of this view try to deal with this challenge is by invoking relative morality.  The problem with this is that it suggests that they are working with an assumption about morality, that it is relative, wihout anyway to back it up scientifically (at which point they move focus from this limitation on the claim to how the challenge has little to do with the claim itself).  Now, I can stomach this type of response from philosophers since philosophers do not have the rigorous evidence finding to support their claims, rather, logical arguements, thought experiments, or some metaphysical story to back up their claim.  But the core of Reductionalist physicalism, they claim, is in science so the fact they resort to the tired "morality is relative" or "it is immoral relative to this moral viewpoint" just seems scientifically lazy since teenagers make similar arguements in regards to morality and they don't need a full body of scientific knowledge to convince themselves of it.  They just need to see how some actions in one family is ok whereas the same actions in another family are not ok.

 

Now to continue a discussion that started in Topher's thread about the scientifically validity of Reductionjlist Physicalism . . . 

 

 

topher wrote:
You misunderstand. It talks about bad moral decisions but not in an absolute/objective manner (which you seem to be implying), but in a relative/subjective sense. Basically, people with damaged to the brain will make immoral decisions in comparison to people without such damage. In other words, normal people will tend to choose X (based on instincts such as empathy, as Kelly discussed), while people with the brain damage will tend to choose Y, which the people without the brain damage would likely consider to be immoral. That was the point the article was making.

 

Again, the question is, on what basis are the individuals considering the actions of the other individuals immoral or moral?  If the only basis they have is becuase it doesn;t resonate with how their brain functions, that is a very weak basis for morality and, as I stated in the intro, seems inttellectually lazy of the scientist to call this process of decesion making morality.     

 

topher wrote:
You don’t believe in some kind of absolute/objective morality do you?

 

I don't beleive in morality period.  Not so much becuase no one can really give any sort of clear or applicable explanation of the concept aside from the tired "knowing right from wrong", but due to the fact that throughout the history of humanity, the only model of morality that really fits is relative morality.  If this is the case, though, calling yourself moral does not really mean anything since, twenty years from now, the very things that make you moral could make you immoral.  Furthermore, from a philosophical perspective, there are only two real groups of morality: consequentialist morality and nonconsequentialist morality.  The problem with consequentionlist morality is that an action is right only IF the conditions are right.  To use your previous example, it is ok to kill someone to save five but not ok to kill someone if you are bored.  The action has little value and is entirely dependant on the particualrs surrounding the action in question.  The problem with noncosequentialist views is that too much value is put on an action.  Kant, for example, argued that you should never lie even if you are lying to a murderer to save your friend.  It hardly seems the case that any action is always right or always wrong regardless of the particulars of the situation.      

" Why does God always got such wacky shit to say? . . . When was the last time you heard somebody say 'look God told me to get a muffin and a cup tea and cool out man'?" - Dov Davidoff


Merakon
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Congratulations, you've

Congratulations, you've come to the realisation that morality is nothing more than a basless artificial construct, a social form of theatrics and nothing more. 

And from your post, everything about morality is dead on, it seems that everybody's moralistic inclinations tends to be a emotional reactionism but in no way connects to a real universal formation of measuring. 

 

The powerful feed ideology to the masses like fast food while they dine on that most rarefied delicacy: impunity.


wavefreak
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Merakon

Merakon wrote:

Congratulations, you've come to the realisation that morality is nothing more than a basless artificial construct, a social form of theatrics and nothing more.

And from your post, everything about morality is dead on, it seems that everybody's moralistic inclinations tends to be a emotional reactionism but in no way connects to a real universal formation of measuring.

 

 

To use the cliched example. then the "disposal" of 6 million jews by Nazi Germanywas wrong only because it bothered enough people that they decided it require action?

What if a brain is prone to chamical states that induce pedophilia? Is that neither right nor wrong until a culture arises to pronounce its moral judgment on the action?

Isn't this line of reasoning what gives fuel to theists that insist atheism is lacks any moral foundation?


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Merakon

Merakon wrote:
Congratulations, you've come to the realisation that morality is nothing more than a basless artificial construct, a social form of theatrics and nothing more.

 

To relate this to the topic of the thread, so reductionalist physicalism confirms scientifically that there is, and never was, any such thing as morality?  Or that, at best, morality was a misinterpretation of the natural processes of nuerons firing?

 

Quote:
 it seems that everybody's moralistic inclinations tends to be a emotional reactionism but in no way connects to a real universal formation of measuring.

 

Which is ironic considering that the most well developed moral philosophies try to do away with emmotions, or as they call them, the passions.

" Why does God always got such wacky shit to say? . . . When was the last time you heard somebody say 'look God told me to get a muffin and a cup tea and cool out man'?" - Dov Davidoff


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wavefreak wrote:To use the

wavefreak wrote:
To use the cliched example. then the "disposal" of 6 million jews by Nazi Germanywas wrong only because it bothered enough people that they decided it require action?

1) America was developed in a similar process only the early Americans killed less over a longer period of time (and we gave them casinos).  And the Americans "won" meaning that it was not even recognized as wrong until America became a superpower and then reflected on it and went "hmm . . maybe there was a better way." 2) America did not really concern itself with what was going on until the attack on Pearl Harbor (any concern before that had to do with America being attacked, not neccessarily saving the Jews).  And since we "won" again, we have the creative licenses to paint the most horrible picture of the "losers".

sidenote: I am not saying either act of massacre was correct.  I am just illustrating how similar actions do not "require" the same amount of "moral" value due to factors that aren't really moralistic at all i.e. "winning" wars. 

Quote:
What if a brain is prone to chamical states that induce pedophilia? Is that neither right nor wrong until a culture arises to pronounce its moral judgment on the action?

To answer the first question, yes.  To answer the second question, if reductionalist physicalism is true, then yes, it is niether right nor wrong.  It is either accepted or not accepted in certain cultures.  In mohammed's time, it was accepted, in modern times, not so much.  The best Reductionalist Physicalism is do is to show that such a person does have a damaged brain suggesting that it is unnatural relative to undamaged brains which would be considered to be natural.

Quote:
Isn't this line of reasoning what gives fuel to theists that insist atheism is lacks any moral foundation

I would really not want to think that every atheist regurgitates this viewpoint like its scripture and have other ways of handling the tired 'Where does morality come from?" question.  Also, athiests can and do have ethics which they can determine after realizing that morality is a misinterpretation of natural processes in the brain.  Does hits make their set of ethics right (in an objective sense)?  No.  But it is a step closer to understanding what makes things right as opposed to positing a higher intelligence that we must follow becuase this intelligence knows better than us (and in some cases will punish us for not following it). 

" Why does God always got such wacky shit to say? . . . When was the last time you heard somebody say 'look God told me to get a muffin and a cup tea and cool out man'?" - Dov Davidoff


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morality

Quote:
Isn't this line of reasoning what gives fuel to theists that insist atheism is lacks any moral foundation?

People construct entire castles and skyscrapers of belief systems, and everyone's so enamoured by the blinking tower lights and the promised heaven/utopia/moral righteousness up on top that no one bothers to look down and notice that there are no foundations.

Quote:
To relate this to the topic of the thread, so reductionalist physicalism confirms scientifically that there is, and never was, any such thing as morality?  Or that, at best, morality was a misinterpretation of the natural processes of nuerons firing?

Never was any such thing as morality. That isn't to say that people dont act in a way which they believe is moral though.

Morality is secular theology, in practice. Making something up and then trying to explain it through natural processes, instead of looking at natural processes and extrapolating conclusions.

Quote:
sidenote: I am not saying either act of massacre was correct.  I am just illustrating how similar actions do not "require" the same amount of "moral" value due to factors that aren't really moralistic at all i.e. "winning" wars.

Might makes right, as they say.

 

The powerful feed ideology to the masses like fast food while they dine on that most rarefied delicacy: impunity.


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  meakon wrote: Morality

 

meakon wrote:
Morality is secular theology, in practice. Making something up and then trying to explain it through natural processes, instead of looking at natural processes and extrapolating conclusions.

 

So a conclusion that can be drawn is morality never existed.  What can we build from this conclusion or what can be done to determine a possible "right" and "wrong" action?  I am seriously asking since, as Wavefreak has put it, many beleive athiests have no foundation for "right" or "wrong".  SO perhaps its time to develop one with what has been concluded from studying the brain.

 

Quote:
Might makes right, as they say.

 

Another uncomfortable truth history has shown time and time again.

" Why does God always got such wacky shit to say? . . . When was the last time you heard somebody say 'look God told me to get a muffin and a cup tea and cool out man'?" - Dov Davidoff


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Here again we have the

Here again we have the classic confusion between 'objective' and 'universal.' Morality is not universal, but it can be objective. All that is needed for objectivity is flawless application to a set of static criteria.

Now, what is desired of morality is that it be objective as opposed to universal. What static criteria could we employ to build an objective ethic?


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kmisho wrote: Here again

kmisho wrote:

Here again we have the classic confusion between 'objective' and 'universal.' Morality is not universal, but it can be objective. All that is needed for objectivity is flawless application to a set of static criteria.

Now, what is desired of morality is that it be objective as opposed to universal. What static criteria could we employ to build an objective ethic?

 And here lies the dilemma. Who gets to decide on the criteria? This is the starting point of many conflicts. One group of thinks they are the arbiters of the criteria while another group lays claim to the role. And too often, the one with the bigger stick gets to enforce their ideas.

Religions says there is a universal morality. But whose religion gets to be the arbiter of the universal morality? This problem does not go away when trying to create a morality on objective criteria. 


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kmisho wrote: Here again we

kmisho wrote:
Here again we have the classic confusion between 'objective' and 'universal.' Morality is not universal, but it can be objective. All that is needed for objectivity is flawless application to a set of static criteria.

 

There is no confusion at all.  Even objective morality is implausible with redutcionilsm since everyone's beleif of what is right or what is wrong is directly related to a physical change or set up in the brain menaing, that morality, if it can be applied at all, can only be applied to an individual, nothing more.  The same is true with ethics, of course, what is the difference at this point between ethics and morality? 

 

Quote:
What static criteria could we employ to build an objective ethic?

 

This is the real problem for reductionlist physicalism since the only objective claim they can make is "All beleifs, desires, emoitons etc. can be reduced to a physical change ot set up in the brain" which does not really say much, or anything at all, about developing any sort of objective rule set that people should follow.  The best they can do is determine what a "healthy" or "fit" brain set up is, study how this brain reacts to various actions and then base some sort of objective rule set off of this. 

 

 

" Why does God always got such wacky shit to say? . . . When was the last time you heard somebody say 'look God told me to get a muffin and a cup tea and cool out man'?" - Dov Davidoff


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[/quote=wavefreak]Religions

[/quote=wavefreak]Religions says there is a universal morality. But whose religion gets to be the arbiter of the universal morality? This problem does not go away when trying to create a morality on objective criteria.[.quote]

 

Again, there are radically different views on what morality is.  Many religions hold that is its objective and/or universal.  Many anti-theists hold that it is relative.  The new problem reductionlist physicalism introduces is the apperent proof that morality does not, and never did exist meaning that arguements over whether or not it is objective is pointless since you would be arguining over nothing.  The second problem this creates is that now, there is, and never was, no way to determine if an action is right or wrong. 

" Why does God always got such wacky shit to say? . . . When was the last time you heard somebody say 'look God told me to get a muffin and a cup tea and cool out man'?" - Dov Davidoff