Annoyance with the lack of reasonable people to argue with.
Offline Alright, ever since I found the Rational Response Squad I've gotten really excited about being an atheist. I've never had much of a belief in God, but when I found this community and learned points to argue with theists, the amount of joy in my life went up. I've been reading the God Delusion and it makes me happy, happy like those theists claim they feel when they find God.
But I feel like I have all this knowledge now and nobody to argue with.
People downtown with "Jesus loves you" banners just preach fire and brimstone to me, and people on this forum and usually pretty uninformed of what they are talking about. And friends aren't big on having religious discussions with me because it makes them feel awkward. You know, that whole thing where we're not allowed to question their invisible friends.
So, I guess what I'm asking is, does anyone else feel the same way? Anyone have a good solution? I feel like we'll never make any progress in taking down religion unless we can have a good forum and strategy to make change. And that's what the RRS is all about...
"If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all" - Noam Chomsky
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I think I know what you're talking about. May I ask how old you are? I'd guess 17-18.
My suggestion would be to learn to argue with yourself
Yeah, I'm 18, just come to College. It's an art school, people here don't care about much besides their art...
So that's part of it.
"If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all" - Noam Chomsky
i'll argue with you, what would you like to argue about? Is it just the existence of God?
Go to youtube, make atheistic arguments in videos. If you're halfway good, you'll be inundated with theists arguing with you
Look at my blog! It's awesome!
I'm also on this Twitter thing
Yeah man, Go on youtube and make some vids. They come out of the woodwork for that. Or develop a new style of Debating. I wouldn't say that you like to argue with people because arguing doesn't usually educate. I like to sit down with a Christian or missionary and Pretend I am interested in what they have to say. So I ask a million questions that usually get them to start questioning their beliefs.
Co-Founder of the Atheist/Freethought website Pathofreason.com
www.pathofreason.com
Check it out
I feel the same way. I have all this knowledge about religion and no one I know wants to hear it. I have no problem speaking up if someone around me starts talking crazy, but not many people do in my area (New England).
My favorite way to discuss religion with a theist is to just ask questions. Eventually you'll work your way to a question where they have to admit a contradiction in their beliefs or admit to having equal reason to believe in both their deity and the flying spaghetti monster. Which I feel anyone would have to try and reconcile. At the very least it should hopefully get them thinking.
"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan
Be glad you are in a religiously quiet place. I'm in Ohio. The place is dripping with outspoken theists. I'd love to go a day without someone making an absurd God claim in my presence.
"Tis better to rule in Hell than to serve in Heaven." -Lucifer
The problem is that you're not going to cure what 95% of this country believes. As atheists, we are in the minority and must learn to deal with it. As much as I try to reason with people of faith, they never want to listen. Who cares about converting them? I live my life the way I want to live it and have my own ideologies, which generally do not coincide with everyone else.
start a blog - if you don't have one already - search out what are, to you, the most interesting, or challenging, questions from theists, supernaturalists, etc. Set them up and knock them down - like Ray Kinsella in Field of Dreams, "if you build it, they will come ..." If you're blog is intriguing, or outrageous, or inflammatory and witty, you'll have both atheists and "believers" commenting in mass ... Also, is your art school part of a larger university that has a liberal arts college, or better yet, a school of theology or divinity?
I'm off myspace.com so you can only find me here: http://geoffreymgolia.blogspot.com
Haha thank you all, this is fun.
I've made comments on youtube vids, and the people just ridicule me or tell me to go to hell. Now making my own vids and responding to other people's is a good idea. I'm a film student anyway, it only makes sense.
And Pathofreason makes a good point about arguing vs. educating. Making people question their faith is a good tactic, I should phrase what I want better.
As for Pawnstar3's comment, on the front page of the site they link to a thread about why we need to be active atheists and fight religion, so I won't go into detail.
Thank you all.
"If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all" - Noam Chomsky
I usually don't bother with direct atheist vs. theist debate. Some people love it, and hey, more power to them. But it didn't take me long to figure out that you just can't reason with the unreasonable. They just don't play fair, which isn't entirely their fault. They've never learned how. Their entire way of thinking is utterly lacking in reason and logic, and their arguments are riddled with so many fallacies that it's hard to keep up. It's like trying to play chess with someone who doesn't know how to play, so he pick up the pieces and throws them at you, then declares victory when you get pissed off about it. Nothing is accomplished. I'm just left frustrated and another 30 minutes older.
We watch "Way of the Master" so you don't have to.
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Yeah, this is quickly what I'm finding out. I had a long talk about this today with my girlfriend (she's a non-religious religion major) and she helped me see that debating with them will, at most, make them question their faith. I mean, look at the conversations all over this forum.
I guess I'll just have to find my place in the destruction of religious beliefs as my life goes on. In the meantime, I'm really digging the God Delusion.
"If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all" - Noam Chomsky
[MOD EDIT - duplicate post removed]
Look at my blog! It's awesome!
I'm also on this Twitter thing
The problem a lot of us have is those who want to debate are usually fundamentalists and they are always the most uninformed. There is no such thing as an educated fundamentalist (at least not educated in what he wants to debate but I'm sure a fundy can make a good dentist without actually knowing the evolutionary process behind why a wisdom tooth must be removed).
On the other hand there are the more educated, level headed and non-fundamentalist Christians. Problem there is that they really don't care what you believe so they aren't interested in debate. The most you might get out of them is conversation but they don't have a goal of conversion usually.
Not to sound trite, but I would drink until the arguments became a challege. I'm from the middle of Cornfield, Ohio, and I don't think I've heard anything close to a coherent counterarguement yet.
Смерть неизбежна.
I have to agree with many of the comments here so far. Its hard to find a theist to argue with who can do so in an intelligent and honest matter. I don't really care to argue usally because whats the point of doing that with someone whose mind you'll never change.
I realize that sounds cynical but its based on my experience. Which has made me a cynical bastard to be honest.
If you start posting youtube videos and linnking to a blog from that. I think you'll find that some people you would like debating with will eventually show up.
Morte alla tyrannus et dei
Lately I feel like I have less to learn from debating rabid theists; that they're dragging my down somehow, to the depths of their stupidity. Just when you think you've seen the last of TAG, or the Kalam Cosmology Argument, or "atheism requires faith," there it is again, with a brand new glassy-eyed stare smirking behind it. I took a break from forums last time because I just felt saturated by the simple-mindedness.
Look at my blog! It's awesome!
I'm also on this Twitter thing
You see, as soon as I opened my mind, I became an atheist. I was a die-hard Christian who, at first, KNEW FOR A FACT that GOD EXISTS. I KNEW this, despite the fact that I knew so little. Sure, I was great in school, especially science, but it was the mental gymnastics that I was doing and didn't even realize it. (go to evilbible.com and look for any posts by me before the summer of this past year...you will see a very deluded person). I guess you could say that I am proof that having an open mind is what allow you to become a better person. I still have an open mind. If someone came up with some good evidence to prove God and disprove the stuff that disproves a God, then I would change my opinion in a heartbeat. That is, if it was substantial, reliable evidence. I would honestly change my entire belief system and life style. However, I'm pretty confident thinking that this will never, ever happen.
(I appologize for my horrible wording/bad English. I just got back from a 4-hour band rehearsal and I'm practically dead.)
Thanks for your story, I have a similar background or that is even farther in the past than yours.
I'm curious, are you saying until you were ready to look at the evidence. There was no way until your mind could be changed?
What caused your mind to open in a way that allowed you to examine other points of view?
Morte alla tyrannus et dei
It wasn't really as simple as I made it sound. Actually, it took about two or three months for me to really grasp atheism. If you follow this link to the evil bible forums, you will see how deluded I was, and you can also sort of follow my progression of a seriously deluded Christian to a rationally thinking atheist:
http://www.evilbible.com/BB3/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=2929&st=0&sk=t&sd=a
http://www.evilbible.com/BB3/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=793&hilit=
http://www.evilbible.com/BB3/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=3482&p=57898&hilit=#p57898
If you are truly interested, please read through the entire topics. Actually, I just reread them myself (it took about ten-fifteen minutes for all of them combined), and it's quite interesting. I said stuff that I laugh at now. I can't believe...how much my views have changed.
I do find this sort of thing interesting. I will read it when I get the chance. Have you considered writing an essay about it and posting it on the site here?
Morte alla tyrannus et dei
Another fun option might be to take up boxing.
Can I really do that? Sure, I would do it (I'd love to), but it would take me some time (I'm in all advanced classes in my high school, so free time is hard to come by [and being in marching band makes my free time even more precious...] . But if I can write one, I certainly will. I could take so many different views on it though...it will be hard to pick only one thing to write about. Circular logic, the sincere delusion of Christians, a Theory of an Open Mind, and so many more topics are possible.
EDIT:
I'm sorry. You can really see my conversion to atheism RIGHT HERE:
http://www.evilbible.com/BB3/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=3447&st=0&sk=t&sd=a
I forgot to paste it. Silly me.
You sure can, you might even win a prize.
http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/rational_response_squad_alerts/rational_response_squad_alerts/2747
And if you essay doesn`t fit in those categories, post it anyway as i`m sure many will find it interesting.
<Edited for spelling>
Morte alla tyrannus et dei
We watch "Way of the Master" so you don't have to.
Visit us on MySpace!