Sitting down to lunch with a christian
Offline I recently had dinner with a co-worker and somehow the subject of religion came up.
He is a Christian and has been for his entire life (so he says) and was telling me how excited he was to be a camp leader next summer at a bible camp his church sponsors.
** I don’t know what it is but people have a tendency to tell me MORE THEN I WANT TO HEAR…maybe it is my smile or perhaps my listening skills I don’t know but as I always do when someone is telling me a story I ask questions and probe deeper to be fully engaged**
I smiled and nodded and asked him if he liked working with children, he responded; I have 5 siblings so I am used to being around kids! And these camp kids are so innocent and sweet, it is such a blessing to be able to deliver the message of salvation to them”
**Okay, at this point I was a bit confused on how to proceed…I could continue to feign my interest which in a way might lead him to believe that I was a Christian…or I could proclaim my lack of belief and end it awkwardly right there! **
Not knowing how to proceed, I took a huge bite of my sandwich I nodded and put up my hand in a 'request to respond' gesture. He continued as I finished chewing: “I have been going to this camp for like 10 years and now that I am 22 and out of college I finally get a chance to give back all that I have been giving in bringing me closer to Jesus!” I swallowed.
**He was SO excited and so full of pride and enthusiasm, guilt began to seep in as I gathered my words**
Smiling, I expressed my delight in his passion and enthusiasm around working with children, I let him know that I had never been to a bible camp and asked if it was the same as “summer camp” …horse back riding, swimming, crafts, songs… He looked at me with a smile and told me that he assumed it would be similar but not the same as Bible camp’s emphasis is in how to live a GOOD LIFE, WITH CHRIST.
**This time HE shoved a sandwich in his mouth and looked interested**
I asked him what that was like, living a good life with Christ since I didn’t follow that path (I saw his eyebrow twitching, I know he was shocked or pissed) My next question for him was this: Do kids that go to plain old Summer camp not live a good life?
**He almost choked LOL**
He responded: “ I didn’t know you didn’t believe” I smiled and asked why that was, in which he responded: “ you seem so happy and positive” At this point I could tell he was uncomfortable and since I work with this person I didn’t want to let it go on TOO long 
so I told him that I was atheist in regards to his beliefs and asked him if he had any questions about what that meant. He responded: “I have no problem with you people” So I push it just a bit further: “so, would you have shared your story with me if you knew I didn't believe?” he shook his head and stated he needed to get back to work.
This story will be continued when I get a chance to see this person again. I want to ask him WHY he wouldn't share his story with me if he knew I was atheist. Is he scared?
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Offline Interesting story, rzubak. I happened to talk to Stuart Bechman of Atheists United at CFI-West this month, and I asked him what his approach was to addressing public perception of atheism, and he said much the same thing as you've demonstrated: they have to know you the person before they can alter their understanding of atheism the position. I'm interested to see where this goes. I'm also reminded of the Borat appearance on The Daily Show. He asks Jon Stewart whether he's had plastic surgery to remove his horns and fangs when Jon reveals he's a Jew.
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Offline I will admit that if it weren't a co-worker I may have been a bit more pushy. He brought up religion, apparently comfortable enough in his assumption of my christianity, that I think it caught him off guard when I did not share his view. It was entertaining and I hope he will have lunch with me again.
I've had the most amazing reactions from people when they find out that I'm an atheist, the longer they've known me without knowing my religious beliefs the better the shocked expression on their face. Then there is about ten seconds of silence, then some stammering usually along the lines of 'But, but ... your a good person! Your loyal, trustworthy, honest, nice, friendly, considerate, etc etc.'
Never ceases to amuse me, however a few of them afterwards decide not to have anything to do with me either because I am an atheist or they believe I've been lying to them and have had an hidden agenda involving them in all the time that I've known them.
I just let them go their way.
: Freedom - The opportunity to have responsibility.
: Liberty is about protecting the right of others to disagree with you.
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Offline I know what you mean, it is okay if they tell us we will burn in hell .... yet some of us feel guilty when questioning their faith. For me personally, when I see that type of passion, energy and enthusiasm coming from someone it comes down to just not wanting to burst their bubble...religion related or not LOL (why I am not good at debate!)
Not everyone is good at debate, and that's one reason why I appreciate your post here, because IMO, it's about time we all learned how to respond appropriately to the pretty much unchallenged manipulations of the religious proseltyzers of the world. We all have a different style, but the main point is that some challenge is provided. I think it's really important, considering how pervasive the indoctrination is in our society, and how much trouble it's causing.
I hope to pose the same question when I get a chance to see him again
Good for you! We have to learn not to buy into the diversions, as they are neverending. I think that is in part due to the fact that many of these people really haven't thought things through for themselves, and they need to provide themselves with some time to come up with an answer. Just once though, I'd love one of them to come back with a viable response, like "you know, this is my personal belief, I can't prove it, I know it's really just my own superstition, and I certainly understand why you don't share it."
Wouldn't that be a refreshing change, not to mention an honest and polite response, for once?
I will admit that if it weren't a co-worker I may have been a bit more pushy. He brought up religion, apparently comfortable enough in his assumption of my christianity, that I think it caught him off guard when I did not share his view. It was entertaining and I hope he will have lunch with me again.
Yes, the co-worker bit is a real issue. It's a total bummer though, that he feels ever so comfortable to bring up religion, yet we non-believers are walking on egg-shells. I look forward to the day when this is not the case, and I believe we will get there by doing exactly what we're discussing here, learning how to challenge these people effectively and productively.
Don't forget to fill us in on the next chapter! 
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Offline So I have had the chance to see this co-worker since the OP 5 times now (in a group meeting) he has refused requests to come to lunch/dinner after the meetings, even when asked to do so with a few of us, so I have been unable to speak to him again about our conversation in November.
I have noted that he doesn't go out of his way to say hi or converse with me anymore, I counter this by attempting to engage him in conversation every time I see him! He responds but doesn't make any effort to have an actual conversation. The time to move on and not push the subject has come only because he is a peer at work...
On a brighter note, out of the 15 other managers in my group I have discovered 8 atheists. The odds of that are crazy to me! 
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Offline His unwillingness to communicate now at any meaningful level simply indicates his insecurity. Many intelligent people share his problem - the dichotomy between understanding logically the absurdity of their professed belief and their public committment to it nevertheless.
When faced with similar circumstances in my own working life I have tended to good humoredly inform them that schizophrenia is not actually a crime so they can relax a little. But then - very earnestly - I inform them that one can get really good help these days.
One thing I couldn't be bothered doing is opening a theological/antitheological debate. It tends simply to reinforce their illness, not help it at all.
Of course, they think I'm mad. But then of course, I know they are!
I would rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy
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Offline I think you did a great job in that you asked him a relevent question first, instead of blurting out you are an atheist. I find that I, myself probably would have out right stated I was an atheist, but the question you posed distracted him for a moment. So many people react with knee-jerk speed when you tell them you are a non-believer. I did find his use of the term "you people" somewhat hilarious of course that's because I am one of "them" myself lol.
"Always seek out the truth, but avoid at all costs those that claim to have found it" ANONYMOUS
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Offline I do alot of emailing and face to face religion debating. I have many fans of my rap and rants, of calm love and loud indignation. But I also get the shun and the "take me off your email list" responses etc. In loving concern I reply back,
"Oh, is that what your Jesus would do, abandon me ? That is so typical of you Christians. Jesus would scold you, as you are are still killing him and his simple message. You are the very hypocrites that story Jesus spoke of. AND so No, I will not remove you from my list, nor abandon you friend. I am the "sword" of debate for truth as said Jesus, who also said we are all ONE with the cosmos father.
You will have to spam me ..... as you so spam Jesus .... etc //////
I know half of you RRS fans think I AM crazy, but how does one communicate in religious language to the religious crazies ?!?! 
Thanks for all your help and insight. I've learned alot here at RRS ..... and one thing for sure; I AM not so crazy, but the world sure the fuck is, especially the 'children of abe clan' ! "Save" them and us from their devil spell !
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Offline I love the kinds of reactions theists give when they find out people they assumed to believe actually don't. My favorite is the shocked look and moment of silence where they are taken aback by the fact that we don't have a tail or horns. 
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - Carl Sagan
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oooh... I can't wait for the sequel.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
I had to lol at the "you seem so happy and positive." Because of course no atheist could be happy and positive.
Ditto on looking forward to part II.
"After Jesus was born, the Old Testament basically became a way for Bible publishers to keep their word count up." -Stephen Colbert
I had the same reaction. Many xians think that since their life is so great because of their god, it's impossible to hate have a happy life w/out it.
"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan
"You people"..."so happy"...Oh, if we only had a nickel for every time we hear that.
Nobody I know was brainwashed into being an atheist.
Why Believe?
I'd be even happier. I could buy lunch on theists' tab about once a month.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
I hope you can forgive my cynicism, and this is not a criticism of you, but don't you think that the whole xian scam is based on exactly that guilt reflex you had? It's as though everyone is under some kind of obligation to not risk offending people who clearly have no conscience about who they might offend.
I take note of the fact that he didn't answer your question. In my experience, valid, logical questions like yours never get answered.
Once again, I hope my cynicism doesn't offend, but I don't believe the guy. It's my strong suspicion that he has quite a problem with "you people"! I note from that the way he separates himself from you, despite the xian notion of "love".
Reason and logic do inevitably result in something less than all the "joy and happiness" True Believers tout, that's for sure! Is it fear? Probably, but who knows what kind of emotional process people in denial and avoidance have to put themselves through? Whatever it is, it fascinates me.
I'll be looking for the next chapter of the story! Thanks for posting it. I just joined, and your experience rang quite familiar to me.
By the way, you're far more gracious than I am. I'm a crusty old cynic, as I mentioned!
I know what you mean, it is okay if they tell us we will burn in hell .... yet some of us feel guilty when questioning their faith. For me personally, when I see that type of passion, energy and enthusiasm coming from someone it comes down to just not wanting to burst their bubble...religion related or not LOL (why I am not good at debate!)
I hope to pose the same question when I get a chance to see him again
Ya, at this point you could tell he was struggling with something. I couldn't tell if he was afraid I was going to reach across the table and rip his heart out or I would ask him to recite the 10 commandments!
I will admit that if it weren't a co-worker I may have been a bit more pushy. He brought up religion, apparently comfortable enough in his assumption of my christianity, that I think it caught him off guard when I did not share his view. It was entertaining and I hope he will have lunch with me again.
{fixed}
Slowly building a blog at ~
http://obsidianwords.wordpress.com/
That was awesome and I absolutely disagree that you should have pushed it further. I think you did more to refute his beliefs by 'playing it cool' rather than going for an all out heated debate.
I think fundamentalists like their opponents to fit into the character of the 'enemy'. Having someone who's completely relaxed rather combative goes a long way to break misconceptions.
Not that I think you should avoid debate, just let him take the offensive and then counter. (sounds like this is the approach that came naturally to you, like your instincts had a natural judgement for such a conversation)
I've also this to say in his defense about not having told you if he'd known that you were an atheist. Religious discussion can be very heated and divisive and I don't think he wanted to start something with a work-mate.
I've also this to say in his defense about not having told you if he'd known that you were an atheist. Religious discussion can be very heated and divisive and I don't think he wanted to start something with a work-mate.
Great point!
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http://obsidianwords.wordpress.com/