Would you die for your (un)beliefs?
Offline I know this is a tough question to ask, and I know it depends a lot on the circumstances, but would you die for your atheism? How much abuse would you take? Would you give in to your abuser to get them to stop/spare you? All this came to me today while I was driving around Lynchburg trying to find a hardware store when I happened to find myself stuck in traffic next to Liberty "University"'s main church early sunday morning. My car has several atheist bummperstickers (one of which says "Smile, god is pretend"
and I was surrounded by xtian fundies, many of whom were staring at my car. I started to think of a bunch of worst case scenarios such as getting shot, my car attacked/vandalized, or even an angry xtian screaming at me while standing in front of my car preventing me from moving. I like to think I wouldn't back down about what I believe in. I know it's very idealistic, but I really like the quote by Emiliano Zapata, that "it is better to die on your feet then live on your knees." Another point to consider is that public persecution on any level, including martyrdom helps our side by portraying the religious nuts for who they really, are and what they promote. I know it's not nice, but it's the truth. So, what are your thoughts?
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If it was a relatively quick death, I think I'd die for my atheism. I suppose it's easy to say that now, but I think I would. I've never been terribly afraid of death, and I wouldn't want to live in some theocracy, or even compromise myself for a group of assholes momentarily, so I probably would.
Now, when it comes to torture, I don't know. There are certain kinds of pain I really don't think I could endure. I'd like to think that I'd stand by my principles, but who am I kidding, right? I've never been tortured, so I have no reason to believe I could withstand it. I'd probably cave.
If I really really had to then yes I would die for my unbelief, I'd rather live for my unbelief so I can fight another day.
: Freedom - The opportunity to have responsibility.
: Liberty is about protecting the right of others to disagree with you.
I would die to prevent the US from becoming a theocracy.
Simply stated - I would. If I were surrounded in my car by a bunch of fundies, though, who started bashing my tail lights, I'd much rather get video of them on my cell phone and head straight to the police.
Nobody I know was brainwashed into being an atheist.
Why Believe?
I don't know. If some nutball starts waving a gun around and asks me if I believe in God, and I know I'm gonna get blasted if I say "no", I'm gonna lie my ass off.
Götter sind für Arten, die sich selbst verraten -- in den Glauben flüchten um sich hinzurichten. Menschen brauchen Götter um sich zu verletzen, um sich zu vernichten -- das sind wir.
Well, in that situation, who knows WHAT the guy wants to hear? Either answer could get you your face blown off. Ever hear that Columbine story?
If the guy had ranted and raved against atheists before at some point I could probably guess what the right answer would be.
You mean the one where the girl gets asked that question, said "yes", and got blasted? I've heard it. It didn't actually happen, by the way.
Götter sind für Arten, die sich selbst verraten -- in den Glauben flüchten um sich hinzurichten. Menschen brauchen Götter um sich zu verletzen, um sich zu vernichten -- das sind wir.
Yeah, I always suspected it was a lie, since there were like ten versions of it I heard. But it was the only example I could think of! My dad loved that story, and always mentioned it in his sermons.
But yeah, my comment only stands assuming you have no prior knowledge of the guy. Just saying, there are crazies from both sides (although more theist crazies, so I guess you would be hedging your bets.)
I'm all for self-sacrifice in certain situations but some things just are not worth dieing for, especially god or the lack thereof. So no I would not die for my atheism, at least not intentionally. That doesn't mean I wouldn't fight for it. As General Patton said
"The object of war isn't to die for your country, but to make the other S.O.B's die for theirs"
So I suppose I would put myself at risk if say the government started shooting atheists because of their beliefs because I would certainly fight back but would have no intention of dieing.
If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X
It's not a total lie. The girl in the story did get shot, but she was never asked that: the gunman just said "Peekaboo!" and shot her. Someone else was asked that, and when she said "yes" the shooter just nodded and walked off. The two stories got conflated.
Do you think I could get away with saying "I'm having a crisis of faith."? The theist would be happy because I still technically believe and the atheist would be happy because I could be close to deconversion. The best of both worlds!
Götter sind für Arten, die sich selbst verraten -- in den Glauben flüchten um sich hinzurichten. Menschen brauchen Götter um sich zu verletzen, um sich zu vernichten -- das sind wir.
I was thinking about that, but in a town like Lynchburg, where you're just as likely to see a Liberty Police car as a Lynchburg one, i'm not sure the police would help much. I recall reading somewhere (I think in Dan Mill's "Atheist Universe"
that a guy was going to protest a traveling religious man who was telling sick people to stop taking their pills and when he went to the police to get help/ a permit they told him that they hope he burns in hell.
I wouldn't die for my '(un)beliefs'. I wouldn't die for very much at all. I don't think that it would be somehow noble to die instead of lying to save myself. I don't believe that martyrdom is particularly moral and I find giving yourself freely to death for most any reason an extremely immoral act. You cannot accomplish any good if you are dead and you can't hope to rectify your circumstances. I believe that life is far too precious to give away to 'save face' or to 'stand up for what you believe in'. Dead people don't do anything.
Perhaps it is selfish of me to so wish to protect my life that I would lie in order to save myself, but perhaps this is a reflection of a reality I have lived. Atheists, perhaps, are not as imminently threatened with violence and death threats as openly homosexual people are. When really faced with a choice between lying and living or standing up for yourself and your beliefs and possibly dieing, I think it's wiser to lie. The situation, if it is not permanent, has no impact on the rest of your life and your ability to otherwise stand up for yourself and your beliefs. If it is permanent, what good is a martyr to a minority that is so brutally repressed?
You may bring up Martin Luther King, but he was a public man and a leader and essentially put himself in harms way, but he did not intend to die and he was given no choice. The civil rights movement would have progressed regardless of his death. The same goes for Gandhi in India.
Should you seek to prove something about a few theists by 'sacrificing' yourself for Atheists? What benefit is there to an Atheist's willing death? It seems irrational and for obvious reasons (I hope) immoral to so 'sacrifice' yourself. That is what it would be isn't it? That is a sort of martyr, is it not? It would not help Atheists for an Atheist to be murdered by theists and it would be the epitome of irrationality to choose willingly in a situation to be truthful and righteous and to die than to lie and live and have the chance to do something. I believe the martyr, the willing sort, is the coward. Unlike what the religious believe what you have to loose is something very precious and there is really no benefit in such a loss as what rational Atheist would find such a death and proclaim, 'Look at the evil theists and the wickedness of their religion, this proves that religion is indeed so terrible.' No murdered gay has even been elevated to martyrdom with such a proclamation and it would be as reasonable a proclamation as it would be if the murdered was an Atheist (and that is not very reasonable at all). Many people from various minorities have been killed by the religious and that has not yet been cause for religion to be so undermined. It is well known that religion makes people do terrible things, the murder of an Atheist who chose to die will not make this any more true.
BigUniverse wrote,
"Well the things that happen less often are more likely to be the result of the supper natural. A thing like loosing my keys in the morning is not likely supper natural, but finding a thousand dollars or meeting a celebrity might be."
Dude, you need to move. The more I hear you talk about Liberty U., the more I admire your bravery for sticking around.
I think we have to differentiate, of course, between dying smartly and dying stupidly. If some gun-toting fundy pulled his (or her) weapon on me not knowing I'm an atheist and asked if I believe in God, I'd probably say yes. But if the government declared open season on atheists, I'd certainly be packing when I left the house. And I would open fire if threatened.
Nobody I know was brainwashed into being an atheist.
Why Believe?
I would die for my ideals sure, not so sure for my atheism per se, i value my freedom (something I would die for to keep my family free), I value my life, the life of my family (again something i would die for), I value human rights (not quite willing to die for unless there were glaring violations in it happening my country). However I would fight against a theocracy (sp?) in my country, i would fight against facism and dictatorship for sure, these would most likely and invade and take away those things i value for myself and my family. But merely for my atheism....eh really depends on the situation. Some situations aren't worth it, it's a meaningless death.
I agree with you on this. A wacko waving a gun is different from a government organization and dying for sticking up to a lone wacko isn't the same thing as dying because you fought back against an opressive government.
And I can't really move, LC is the only college I got into, but i'm looking at transfering. I came up with a new bumper sticker however! It's going to read "Liberty University is neither" Whatcha think?
I'm not so sure I'd be that eager to die jsut for being atheist, though it might be preferable to saying I love/serve god. I'd more likely to do as Matt said, and be willing to die to stop thesim having complete control of goverments
Psalm 14:1 "the fool hath said in his heart there is a God"-From a 1763 misprinted edition of the bible
Argument from Sadism: Theist presents argument in a wall of text with no punctuation and wrong spelling. Atheist cannot read and is forced to concede.
I cant say that I would make a choice to live or die because Im atheist. I guess that would be up to the crazy person who is considering killing me to make the final decision. However I would be honest about what I think and if shit gets crazy I will go down swinging.
www.garageband.com/artist/abandonmypeace
Ha! I just alluded to that very premise in your post about their code of conduct.
But if just being an atheist didn't get your car attacked, something tells me that talking shit about their beloved university will.
Nobody I know was brainwashed into being an atheist.
Why Believe?
The standards are pretty low at VCU. I'll even bring some friends to help you move...
Seriously though, I think this topic could expand into "How far will you go for your atheism?" I really have to walk a fine line here because it is incrediably difficult to try and end the religious hatred and harrassment without being hated and harassed.
I use a wheelchair and sometimes I think the pity-factor keeps some fundies from slapping the shit out of me. However, some theists - even those not as gun-waving obvious - can get extremely violent and it is something to always keep in the back of your mind.
P.S. If anyone has not yet voted today you still have two hours or more, depending on your time zone, so stop by the polls on your way home from work.