What would constitute proof?
Posted on: November 14, 2007 - 11:08pm
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What would constitute proof?
I've often wondered this. What would constitute proof? Even if some giant man came down from the sky, we could explain it away by saying it is some advanced science, say a hologram of some sort. I don't think anything could ever make me believe. The only thing that might do it was if some guy started breaking the laws of science, say splitting an atom and having nothing but candy bars explode out. (Yeah I'm kinda hungry) But hey, it would be cool if to prove that he existed he picked me up and we soared around the universe going through stars and neat shit. But then again, could be really really advance aliens like Stargate SG-1 gods.
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I like to think of myself as a skeptic, but I have to admit, if a giant man came down from the sky and made clear that he was the Judeo-Christian god (or any other god, for that matter), I'd just say "fuck it" and convert. Sure, maybe scientists had been secretly developing the technology to do such a thing, or maybe super-advanced aliens were just messin' with us, but I wouldn't care anymore.
It would have to be something of that magnitude, though. Too bad ol' Yahweh's become a bit more conservative after his glory days of killin' firstborns and impregnating virgins, eh?
The unexamined life is not worth living - Socrates
Proof for me would consist of a being... being able to tell me what I am thinking, what I did 12 hours ago, who I first had sex with, where I was when I first masturbated, etc.
Further, proof would have to be scientifically backed with this being having the ability to inform us of how he is possible.
You remember the first time you got yourself off? DAMN, I thought I was the only one!!!
I remember my first orgasm distinctly.
First thought (after a few breathless moments) "I bet my dad has no idea of this shit."
"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci
Is it more likely that there is a God or is it more likely that some advanced aliens, for unknown reasons, using an unknown technology, are making me believe things that are not true. Such advance alien activities are far more likely than God.
A magical being who magically poofed into existence and magically created everything out of nothing is the least likely of all things. Whatever I thought I saw or read or heard, I would assume that its more likely that those damn advanced aliens were screwing with my mind again.
If the skeptical, rational, non-superstitious members of the scientific community reached a consensus that there was some objective repeatable experiment that could be performed, or data that could be gathered, that proved that God exists, and the experiment was described in a peer reviewed scientific published paper, then I would believe that it is more probable that those damn advanced aliens were screwing with my mind again.
when you say "faith" I think "evil lies"
when you say "god" I think "santa clause"
Another question is how much does an unexplained phenomenon have to be consistent with a mythological model before it can be considered confirmation of it -- or, in more familiar terms, the converse: how little does it have to fit before it's considered confirmation of the same?
The theory of evolution, for instance, is confirmed by evidence save for gaps.
Creationism is confirmed by gaps, save for contrary evidence.
Naturalism is confirmed by everything considered explainable.
Dualism and gods are confirmed by whatever hasn't been explained.
They say you can't prove there aren't gods.
No explanation thus far has profited from their inclusion.
Even on its best day, their criteria for evidence is argued from ignorance or silence.
Just ask him to make another Earth. He did it once, he can do it again.
Just ask him to make another Earth. He did it once, he can do it again.
Haha, yeah, that would work for me. Hey god, if you want me to believe in you, make a new earth were we can live without your current followers.
Ah! But wait! What about the planet construction company in hitchhikers guide to the galaxy? They weren't god. 
You know, I used to think that God just coming down to earth and making a statement would do it for me, but I never thought about the possible alien conspiracy angle...
That being the case, I suppose winding up at the pearly gates of heaven for judgement after I die is about the only thing that'll do it.
Nobody I know was brainwashed into being an atheist.
Why Believe?
Well, first, the being would need to raise certain people from the dead. I would select these people at the being's appearance.
Then, we would move in to day one of the so called: Calendar Year of Smiting. That would be followed by 364 days of related smiting activities. For example, we may have smote someone on day 4, but we'll resurrect that person on day 10 to be smitten once more on day 12.
If a being is wicked awesome enough to provide life and snuff it out at my request, I will worship that being as a god. If you disagree with me, please speak to my secretary about which day she can pencil you in for.
"Tis better to rule in Hell than to serve in Heaven." -Lucifer
Its kinda like porn imho, i`ll know what it is when I see it.
I honestly can't answer this question and I have given it some amount of thought in the past. I'm not entirely sure why I believe the things that I believe now except that they form a consistent picture of reality within which I can, for the most part, understand the way in which I exist. This is not to say I can understand everything, just that everything that I do understand fits together well, is supported by the other pieces of things I know, and most of it wouldn't make the least bit of sense without all the other stuff. When 'god' is tacked onto this I'm not sure how it is supposed to connect with the rest of the picture, or even what it is that is supposed to be being added.
If 'god' could overcome that I guess I'd probably believe in him. He just needs to fit. Oh, and a gazillion dollars.
“Philosophers have argued for centuries about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, but materialists have always known it depends on whether they are jitterbugging or dancing cheek to cheek" -- Tom Robbins
What is a "reasonable" standard to you?
to me Proof is any objective exposition which is based on credible reasoning and rationality applied to acceptable premises.
A proof must be subjected to arbitrary analysis and survive all scrutiny.
As soon as you enter the realm of subjectivity, or your "personal point of view" you have left the realm of what is a proof. _________________________________________________________ MOD: I noticed in one of your posts that you claimed to be neither atheist nor theist. Actually this is an impossibility. So until you make a determination as to whether you have a god belief or no belief, do not post in the "Freethinking Anonymous" section. It is for atheists only.
I'm kinda surprised no one has brought these 2 points up:
1) You can't really prove anything, other than you exist. I'm not extremely well versed in philosophy so correct me if I'm wrong on that.
2) If a deity is all knowing they they would know exactly what evidence it would need to provide to convince you of their existence.
I don't think any one peice of evidence or one experience could ever convert me. As they say "extrordinary claims require extrodinary evidence".
"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan
You can prove that you exist???? Let's see you do it. Here I thought I was just chatting with Turing bots.
"Tis better to rule in Hell than to serve in Heaven." -Lucifer
This is a tough question, and all i can really say is that any proof would have to be compelling. If you were to take people from 300 years ago and show them any number of things we consider normal, they would have no concept of what they were seeing. How would we know it was a god and not a really advanced civilization? (and how do we know there is a difference?)
as Arthur C. Clarke once said, "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
“The greatest tragedy in mankind's entire history may be the hijacking of morality by religion.”
“It may be that our role on this planet is not to worship God, but to create him.”
<I've offered suggestions before, yet now I'd have to say I don't think there's any stunt we could ask for which wouldn't be more reasonably explained by natural means than by god. Any amazing feat beyond our ability to explain more likely indicates a gap in our knowledge than a supernatural agent.
There are no theists on operating tables.
I think time travel would be pretty convincing. Take me back to places I remember and can observe then to a time of my choosing, forward or back.
How about giving me some temporary ability that I couldn't possibly aquire within such a short timespan like playing "all along the watchtower" Hendrix stylee on the electric guitar and witness my great grandfather carry out the action at Neuve Chapelle in March 1915 that would win him the DCM in northern France.
Afterall extraordinary proof requires extraordinary evidence.
Well, you have "I think, therefore I am", but then Hegel argued that you need an other to recognize you to know that you exist. (Insert something about ghost movies and how the guy realizes he is dead when no one interacts with him)
"What right have you to condemn a murderer if you assume him necessary to "God's plan"? What logic can command the return of stolen property, or the branding of a thief, if the Almighty decreed it?"
-- The Economic Tendency of Freethought
I think you have as much to fear of that happening just as you would to fear sitting in front of Osirus and Horus and their judgment.
I fear the Pearly Gates as much as I fear Lex Luthor or Superman.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
The question is purely hypothetical because as of today there's been no credible evidence of a God. A well-executed card trick is more than we've seen so far.
I think most of us are open to new evidence. Any verifiable, repeatable, objective evidence that actually tended to make the existence of a deity more likelly than not would be worthy of consideration. Let's look at it when we see it. Let's examine it and then decide if it's sufficient.
Thandarr
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What would get me to believe in a deity?(Incert label here)
When I see a hot looking woman every single time, without saying a word to them, they suddenly want to have sex with me without question and offer it to me.
But, since utopias dont exist, deities are nothing but wishfull thinking.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
I think is about says it all. If God is out there, He/She/It knows how to prove themself to me. Hell, He could make me believe without proving it to me by using some Jedi mind trick.
Michael