I think that the us should definitely pull out of iraq immediately and halt the construction of permanent bases there as well as pay reparations to the iraqi people until their country is returned to what was basically first world status before the us destroyed it.

 i believe this is correct because i think it would be best for the us to return to a non-interventionalist policy for the sake of the american people who already find their country collapsing under the weight of debt created by these policies as well as for the general well being of the rest of the world especially the middle east which has suffered greatly at the hands of the us.

i think in the short term the results could be no worse than they are now but in the long term they will be fine for the people of iraq but possibly not so good for the us from an economic standpoint. 

 A quick point Iraq was not a terrorist regime. Its didn't have links to Al_Quada, it was not a threat to America or any other western nation, it was not run by Islamic crazies. Iraq was in fact a laregly secular nation with the religious fucktards kept in check by the dictator Saddam Hussain. Now I would prefer dealing with a dictator than a theocracy. At least you know where you stand with a dictator they will tend to try to cling to power and that means trying not to overly fuck of bigger nations. Heaven knows America likes doing business with dictators they have helped install enough of them in place of other less "acceptable" regimes like democratically elected ones with socialist leanings. 

Yep 

Yep but your forgetting the main point. It allowed Bush to get re-elected and allowed him to give tax breaks to his business buddies for another 4 years. So the war in Iraq has been a resounding success, if you are part of Bushco.

Hey but they have made their cash so what do they care?

The best bit is that the democrats will now get elected and have to carry the can for a totally fucked up economy. Meaning that 4 years after that the republicans will get elected back in!!

The war has been very succesful indeed for Bushco.

Should they pull out now though? They wont. They will leave that for the next administartion  to deal with. Its a wonderful politcial bear trap. If the next adminstration pulls out they will create another islamic fundamentlasist sate who will get busy slaughtering each other fro a while before turning their atention to the cause of all their problems The great Satan so you fucked if you do. If they don't pull out the economic strain will cause huge problems in America more soldiers will die and so they fucked if they don't. Either way the next administration is totally screwed. It might actually be a good thing if the republicans do get a third term, that way at least they will have to deal with the fall out from the mess they created. 

    A terrorist state does not require to have links to al-quada or to islam, it has to be a sponsor of terrorism, North Korea is part of the axis of evil (terrorists state) and has no links to al-quada (sp?) or islam. Saddam as far as the bush administration was concerned was a threat to the middle east (read israel) with their WMD (or vapor ware as it turns out) and are/where an easier target than hitting iran because it was already defeated once and was not loved by it's arab neighbours as it stood. yes bush and those boys have made money, but it is always possible they could stand trial for it (yes I know the possiblities are so remote that I will win the lottery 3 times before this happens but it is the slightest of chances)

We need to get out. "Victory" here is impossible and will never happen. We should have never been there in the first place.

Hmmm...well these are my thoughts on the matter.  I definetly don't consider myself an expert or anything but these are my somewhat naive thoughts.

To those that say we should just pull out and we should have never invaded in the first place...well it's a little late to do anything about us invading.

That's history.  We can't change the past.  So let's look at what we can do.  What is our current situation?

We did invade.  We have a country on our hands that is very destabilized and heavily islamic.

We just pull out?

Really?

We can't really compare this situation to any of America's past wars.  Yeah we rebuilt Germany and Japan, but they weren't killing each other within their own countries.  Yeah, we left Vietnam and everything turned out hunky-dory...but they didn't give a shit about America once we left.

Islam is a big difference.  We have to admit that all eyes are on us.  Whether or not we are fighting in the middle east.  We are currently the most powerful country in the world.  We spend the most on defense.  The entire world watches our movies our TV shows.

Think on that for a moment.  I've been to about a dozen countries around the mediterranean and they all have restaurants for McDonalds, Subway, have posters up advertising american movies, etc.

American culture is in your face for most of the people of the Earth.

And we have to admit, muslims do not like our culture.  At all.

Richard Dawkins interviewed a jewish man who had converted to the Muslim faith in Palestine.  He tried to talk with him.  The man started spouting things like, "How dare you dress your women like that!  Get your act together, and when we come..."

Did you hear that?  "When we come..."

Fundamentalist Islam is not content to just let us sit here fat, dumb, and happy. 

They will come.  Any chance they get.

So we have to keep them weak.

Ok, let's think on 9/11.  Where did the power base for the 9/11 operation come from?

Afghanistan.  I know that most of the hijackers were from Saudi, but the actual headquarter of the deed was from Afghanistan.

Ok, let's look at Afghanistan.  Ruled by brutal islamic fundamentalists that actually invited Osama to come over.

How did Afghanistan become like this?  The Soviet Union invaded, mucked everything up, and...they just fucking left.

If we just fucking leave, don't you think that the ultimate victor will be extremely brutal islamic fundamentalists?  People that hate America, want us dead, and will be sitting on top of the third largest reserve of Oil in the world?

So what would we have?

People that don't mind killing people, think it is their holy duty to subjugate us, and have the potential to be extremely well financed.

Doesn't that worry anyone?

Like I said, I'm not an expert by any means.  I just think it would be a very, very bad idea to leave Iraq without getting a stable government in place first. 

Your arguement makes sense and I do agree on some of your conclusions. However, if we do stay we will continue to be drained economically, which is why Bin Laden wants us over there. The more we spend and the more thin our forces become the weaker are other powers (economic, social) become. If we can learn from the history of Rome, we will tear ourselves down. Yes, they do want to kills us and want to follow us here. Why not spend our money on protecting ourselves. By staying we increase the rise of fundamentalism. The more we stay the more we reinforce the belief that we are oppressors and are at war with Islam. The more we stay the less trust we have with other nations. We need their support.

We do need to take steps to protect ourselves.  I don't think staying there is a step and actually makes us weaker. Beyond radical Islam wanting to kill Americans they want to kill Jews and European nations. However, the larger war is in the market place of ideas. The more we stay and the more we use military force the less credible our ideas become. The more like hypocrits we become. Not just to the Islamic world but to the rest of the secular world.

Yes, we made a mistake. Why continue to make the same mistakes??

I do agree on a timetable approach. I don't think there will ever be a victory in Iraq. Do you think the terrorists are going to stop just because we are there?? Do you think we will just kill all Islamic fundamentalists?? No way in hell. We need to win this with the war of ideas, like the free world did to end communism, while also protecting ourselves. Sadly we are losing horribly in the war of ideas, especially when nations that think similarly to the way we do don't support our actions.

Well, since you guys did invade in the first place, you have the moral obligation to try and make sure a stable goverment left behind you when you leave, as if you`ll leave all that oil behind. My two cents anyway.

The United States will not go bankrupt because of the war, nor will the war significantly affect the economy.

Money to pay for the war will simply be taken from elsewhere in the federal budget.

I find it funny that Republicans claim to be fiscal conservatives...unless you're talking about spending several hundred billion dollars to invade a foreign country. They're all for that kind of spending!

You can hardly compare Orlando Bosch to Osama bin Laden. Except for the fact that both at one time received support from the U.S government...

Look, the situation in Iraq is bad. The invasion was a terrible idea, and we're stuck with the consequences. And there's no way the U.S. is going to get out of there - whether it's in 3, 5, 10 or 20 years - with the country being squeaky clean.

But you can argue convincingly that the longer we stay, the more we're going to see diminishing marginal returns for our efforts. We won't be able to accomplish much more in 5 years than we can in three. So why stay the extra two years?

but you're just arguing for US hegemony. first you used trumped up charges to attack a weaker nation claiming that they were a threat to you, now you're using the same excuse to justify an indefinite occupation when you are the one's that are a threat to them not the other way around. and if you're in the military don't you at least care that more than 100 of your friends and coworkers commit suicide every week from ptsd?

I'm using trumped up charges to attack a weaker nation? Hello?

I'm not talking about attacking anyone. I'm talking about the current world situation.

*sigh*

Ok, I'm not talking about whether we should invade Afghanistan or Iraq. In case you didn't notice we already have.

Are you going to start claiming that I'm proposing that we should attack Japan for bombing Pearl Harbor back in 1941? WE'VE ALREADY ATTACKED THEM! We are ALREADY in Iraq. We are ALREADY in Afghanistan.

I'm NOT asking whether those attacks were right or wrong.

...

Ok, let's play a little game. Bush leaves office, you become the new president of America.

What do you have to deal with?

The previous presidency DID invade Iraq and you have to deal with it. You can't undo what happened years before. Your country is ALREADY occupying another country.

How do you best handle the current situation?

Current means now. Not a year ago, not 5 years ago, not 66 years ago.

Hello? AM I TALKING ABOUT HOW AMERICA SHOULD INITIALLY RESPOND TO 9/11?

We have already responded to it! I'm not talking about attacking anyone! I'm asking you what is the best thing to do starting now (Nov 30, 2007).

And who the fuck is arguing for an "indefinite" occupation? What?

I don't want us to indefinitely occupy anyone.

Where the fuck do you get that implication from?

I'm talking about setting up an Iraqi government FOR Iraq that is not radical, fundamental islam, and then stop occupying them.

And do I care if service members are commiting suicide? Ok, first can you explain what difference does this make?

Yeah, it sucks that some people get so fucked up that they commit suicide. What the fuck does that have to do about what we should do about current day Iraq?

You're still comparing apples to oranges with Bosch and bin Laden, particularly when it comes to death toll. Bosch was responsible for, what, something like 70 deaths? Bin Laden was responsible for 3,000.

The United States would have gone after bin Laden wherever he was hiding. It happened to be Afghanistan. We gave the ruling regime in Afghanistan the opportunity to cooperate, and they chose not to.

Look - I think most people here are clever enough to understand why the United States was attacked on September 11th, 2001. U.S. foreign policy in the middle east was shit for a long time before then. Our unconditional support of Israel has driven Arab countries absolutely nuts for decades. It was only a matter of time before someone with some resources mounted an attack on the United States.

The invasion of Iraq was completely and utterly unjustified. We know that the Bush administration lied about the intelligence they had to justify the invasion. We may never know what they were thinking. Maybe it's oil, maybe it's something else. But as an American citizen, I hope it's a very, very long time before we invade another country. As in never.

you're talking about the number of people who died that's just moral calculus. i'm talking about a principle that the us would apply to other nations but not to itself.

but even if that was a good reason to apply the doubole standard, bin laden has never been indicted for that bombing. the fbi said that they don't have evidence he was even responsible. and i could just as easily say orlando bosch is suspect in more than 30 acts of terrorism and bin laden is suspected of less than that so the us should not have been able to attack afghanistan but cuba should be able to attack the us. you should go by the principle not by numbers.

you say that you gave afghanistan "the opportunity to cooperate" but the us does not cooperate with other nations who try to apprehend terrorists. the us has a ruling against it in the international court for engaging in terrorism. then they attack another country for not even engaging in terrorism but just harboring a person who hasn't even been indicted to this day and kill tens of thousands more people in the process.

I don't understand where you are coming from for that statement. 

The so called million citizens dead is very debatable. I have read the claims by many stating the deaths are caused by the US. After digging deeper however I found information that indicated otherwise.

As for the sectarian violence, that was there even before the US went in. People seem to forget what was actually going on in the country before the US occupation. So they look at the stuff since and say 'Yeah the US caused that!' completely missing the fact that it was already there!

Well I am one of the few that agreed with the coalition forces going in. Saddam was thumbing his nose at everybody, did it for many years. The UN sanctions weren't working, the UN Oil-for-Food program was corrupt, etc.

Just like you have a responsibility to your neighbours in behaving yourself, so do countries have the same responsibility to their neighbours (ie the world). It's just America is one of the few countries in the world that has the power to be able to step in and do something when it needs to be done.

If America hadn't done something when they did, I bet you even today Saddam would still be in power, still be thumbing his nose at everybody, and still not complying with the UN requirements. So how long was the world meant to give him to behave? 20 years? 50 years? 100 years?

 Enough was enough.

And the problem is? Someone is going to be the most powerful and will have to prevent insane dictators from creating WMD's. Granted, Saddam was only slightly insane compared to say Kim Jong-il. I doubt that Saddam would actually have used a Nuke if he created one. Although I believe he certainly would have been willing to sell it. I would just as soon it be America. The Brits seem to have really lost interest in controlling the world and seem fixated with controlling the EU, the French can't even control their own country and might be heading for yet another revolution, the Germans recently tried to conquer the world, and don't mention the Russians and Chinese. Who else if not America?

The US will never leave Iraq and I will argue that it shouldn't leave. The US has a habit of leaving military bases in every country that has the unfortunate experience of being on the wrong side of our military. Note, we still have military bases in Germany and Japan. Granted, at some point the bases ceased to be occupying forces and became friendly but we are still there. Similarly I expect the US will establish at least one permanent base in Iraq.

Half of what I expect is the real reason we invaded Iraq is its proximity to Iran. Already rumblings have been heard of an assault on Iran on both Republican and Democratic sides of the ticket. If I was a betting man (which I am) I would put my money on the US invading Iran within the next 10 years. While it is difficult to prove that the Iranian government has been directly involved with terrorism it is clear that they are willingly turned a blind eye to terrorism. We know a good portion of the terrorists in Iraq have come from Iran.

As for America being a hegemony I don't see the problem. We have the most advanced and skilled military in the world. Our military is utterly terrifying if you are on the wrong side of it. Living in a democracy we get spoiled and start thinking that all problems can be solved with talk and negotiations. Talk and negotiations work great when both sides are willing to compromise. When one side is religious fanatics or insane dictators negotiations are a waste of time. How do you come to a rational agreement with someone who is irrational? Or someone who agrees then proceeds to do the opposite of what was agreed on. Sometimes war is the only option and I'm damn glad I live in the country with the best military.

So now that we are in Iraq I think we should stay there. As someone pointed out we have a bit of a moral obligation to make sure we don't leave a mess behind. Also, it is a useful place to have a military base should we need it for Iran.

I just wish that we Bush would set his damn morals aside long enough to take a few trillion dollars worth of oil. After all, if we just went there for the oil why the hell did we let them join OPEC?

I'm about as serious as I ever am. Aside from the fact that a large part of me considers life to be little more than a high stakes game I am very serious. The US is currenly the strongest country militarily and we should use that when we are threatened by other countries.  If religious fundys get out of hand and start blowing us up we should go take care of them regardless of what other countries think. Expecting terrorists to leave us alone just because we say we are going to be nice to them is idiotic.

i'm certain that there are plenty of intelligent people in the military who have integrity...and they're all awol hahaha.  anyway the war on terrorism is bogus. it's just an excuse to clamp down on democracy. you might think it's good that the us can project military dominance but if america no longer represents the ideas that made it great in the first place, freedom, democracy, individual liberty and justice then other people actually have a right to fight it by hook or by crook.

america is an over-bloated debtor nation with a failed democracy and a military so large that it can only be maintained by putting the country futher into debt. instead of worrying about full spectrum dominance (that's the dod's term not mine) you should be thinking about why other countries are lining up to dump your currency and the value of the dollar is plunging, and you have a government that sets up prison systems and police forces that are not accountable to the people, and a surveillance apparatus directed at ordinary citizens.  

Ummmmm, would you rather live in Iraq under Saddam or now? Afghanistan under the Taliban or now? Sure they are not perfect but there is certainly more freedom now than before. Even though the modern US has certainly thrown out a lot of our freedoms in the last 100 years we are still one of the most free nations in the world.

Regardless of what you think of the war on terror, the US has improved the lives of people in Afghanistan and Iraq and has helped spread its ideals of democracy and freedom.

And say one more derogatory thing about the troops and I will cease being nice. I found the average soldier to be quite a bit more intelligent than the average american and at least 10 times more intelligent than your average college student. I went through boot camp and college. Boot camp was much harder.

   gezz,

WAR IS A RACKET

google Major General Smedley D. Butler, for more,

http://www.warisaracket.com/ Linked from, http://www.nmmng.co.uk/links.html , from, http://www.nmmng.co.uk/ from, http://physicshead.blogspot.com/search/label/Carl%20Sagan , all from The giant list of atheist blogs (Mojoey's Atheist Blogroll) http://www.neuralgourmet.com/2007/09/26/the_giant_list_of_atheist_blog

a bonus: What's good about religion? patcondell video, http://atheistube.blogspot.com/

You exist. Get over it. Get on to living. Be happy. War is stupidity, the wrong method .... help them better ....

You're serious right? Right. I think it's more reasonable to assume that people the world over would rather have food, shelter and a stable life before they care about who rules over them. I somehow don't think that a war environment is the exact place a civilian person wants to live in, especially considering the civilian casualties that America's responsible for.

They sure don't. I bet they don't care either. Do you know what you're missing, living in the United States? Of course not. Dripping with sarcasm, the United States is obviously the best nation in the world.

Let me get this straight. It's America's duty to promote its superior ideals of 'democracy' and 'freedom' by invading countries and committing government coups, for the good of the sovereign citizens of sovereign nations?

And the world wants the United States as a 'super power'? Invading other countries and committing government coups for the 'good of the sovereign citizens of sovereign nations'?

Just how many other nations practise a democratic form of government and managed to forge their own destinies without the help of the United States? Your argument is dead in the water. No one gave the United States permission or the choice to 'help out' or to 'not help out' and frankly this altered version of manifest destiny would be better off culled from the thoughts of Americans. I fail to see at what point America's interventionism has actually helped the world.

The United States hasn't got a choice but to be involved in the world. After 50 years of near constant military action in various nations around the world, I think the United States has earned a place being involved. An isolationist policy is simply a silly notion. It's not even possible for any country to consider such a thing anymore, nor actually practise it. The world is far to global for that and to make a point, America is far to dependant on everybody else for pretty much everything it needs. Not an odd situation for any nation to be in. I really hold issue with the United States for a great many reasons, most of which aren't even relevant to the fact that it's been a warmongering nation for the last 50 years.

Do I think America should get out of Iraq right now? Yes.

I'm still rather weak on the strawman thing.  Will you please point out how I did such a thing?  Honestly, I'm not being a turd here.  Help me learn, BGH.  Thanks. 

Have they really gotten a taste of freedom?  They seem to think freedom is the freedom to kill people that don't agree with you.  At least here in america we are at a level where baptists aren't blowing themselves up inside catholic churches.  The Sunnis and Shiites seem to blow each other up daily.  And their differences seem to amount to the same between a lutheran and a mormon, actually quite less in a lot of ways.  Really, have they attained a taste of what freedom really means as us americans perceive it? 

Rights are fundamental, they don't come in progressive steps.  I think you mean to use the word 'concern' or 'ability' instead of 'right'.  Otherwise, you're not being totally coherent here.  Nevertheless, I understand what you mean.  Yes, the basic necessities are premier, then come other concerns. 

I didn't ask the question so that I could later explain to you what you are missing.  There are numerous things you could be as an American.  Do some searching yourself and discover what other nations have that yours doesn't that you'd like to have.  The question was really rhetorical.  I asked it to point out to you the absurdity of your own question.  You can't know what you're missing if you haven't experienced it or if you aren't aware of it's absence.  Maybe you really feel that America is the best country in the world and that there's nothing else you'd desire that you haven't got.  I don't really know.  From my perspective I can see what America's lacking.

I'm not implying that at all.  That's just the reality of America's involvement in the world.  So, you don't support it?  That doesn't change the reality and you haven't proposed an alternative option other than isolationism.  Perhaps if you advocated a political and diplomatic type of involvement... but you're posts indicate that you don't feel those are good options either.  (Would you rather America just didn't exist?  You wouldn't be alone.) 

I'll be crystal clear here.  I don't think the any nation wants any other country's ideologies forced upon them in any way.  Simply because the United States is a 'super power' doesn't mean it has to have 'influence' at least not the sort you're talking about.

That's funny.  Okay, the United States did something for Europe some 50 years ago and it's 'helping' Israel.  I don't know where you're going here.  I also think you're overstating America's involvement in a war that was half over by the time America joined in and the victory of which wasn't the result of American military aide.  Of course, I've known Americans to have a bizarre knowledge of World War II history that just doesn't jive with history books printed in the rest of the world.

Okay.

I don't recall a war in recent times that America's been involved in where the war was actually won and justice was actually done to the people in the nation where the war was fought.  I don't see how Iraq should be any different.  I don't see how further American involvement would be beneficial to the now war ravaged nation of Iraq which was invaded under blatantly false circumstances for purely American interests without the approval of international bodies and the disapproval of many of the worlds nations.  America has no right to be in Iraq, let alone to stay and... and what... try to make up for the fact that they virtually destroyed the entire country?

I'd like to say, Gauche, that I'm glad you've posted in this topic.  I had considered not posting at all and have avoided until most recently, only because you said absolutely everything I would have said.  I believe it's important to dispell the myths surrounding American military action around the world and the warped idea that it somehow promotes democracy and freedom and makes lives better for people. 

Other than Germany and Japan the US has not taken the time to help establish democracies in the countries we have been involved in. I believe this was a mistake although since during that time we were in the middle of an arms race with the USSR I can understand why it wasn't at the top of our list. In fact, the US often supported dictators who were willing to support America out of expediency. That is how we ended up supporting Baptista, Saddam, Osama et al. Yes, we made a big cluster fuck mess of a lot of countries because we went in with one purpose and left without offering any further support and that might very well be partially responsible for the hatred of America that helps perpetuate terrorism.

In Afghanistan we tried something different. We stayed just like we did in Germany and Japan. We established a democracy, helped rebuild the infrastructure and improved the country, just like we did in Germany and Japan.

Now explain to me, how leaving Iraq like we left Panama, Cuba, Korea and Vietnam is going to help reduce hatred of America? All those countries we left like some are proposing we leave Iraq are royally pissed off at us.

Or we can stay in Iraq like we did in Germany, Japan and Afghanistan and help them improve their lives. The result will be a country that will be a lot friendlier in the long run.

You are right, bombing does not establish a democracy. We've already bombed Iraq and demolished the enemy militarily so they are reduced to guerilla tactics. Establishing a democracy requires time, security and boots on the ground for a much longer time. If our only goal is to kill all the bad guys, a nuke would have been far more efficient. This might surprise you, but the groups that were in power don't really like democracy and will do anything to prevent it so they can rule again. The Brits weren't too hot about democracy when America revolted. Actually, I'm not too crazy about democracy if the choice is me being dictator or having a democracy. Democracy is such an inefficient form of government and gives the majority too much power but that is another thread. 

To those who say you can't force democracy. What is Japan? And Afghanistan is coming along quite nicely.

I think America should leave Iraq now. I don't believe this will improve the situation in Iraq, and neither will staying.

As to why, the value of the American dollar is plummeting, as is our international standing, our national morale, our confidence in our own government, and our sense or security. I think our troops should be providing a line of defense here at our borders, sea ports, airports, etc. I'm sure some would call it selfish, but our national finances should be spent here at home, developing a means to end our oil dependence on other countries and toughening up our infrastructure. We can't really claim to be a "superpower" if our entire military is sitting in the middle east, China financially owns us, and local news reporters can walk fake "bombs" right through airport security. I truly believe radical Islam is a serious threat that must be dealt with, but right now I think their bitch slapping America by sucking it dry of it's every resource. 

In the short term, I think we'll get an even share of criticism and praise. In the long term, I think we'll build a more independent and strong US. An America that can stand on it's own and is no longer meddling indefinitely in other countries affairs will be a better, and more respected, America.

but i'm just a guy making an observation from my keyboard. these opinions aren't an absolute for me.