so i'm failing my religion class
Offline i was up most of the night reading but i failed the test. obviously, not for my lack of studying. i tried talking to the instructor (a theist) without mentioning my non-belief and here are my conclusions:
1. i just don't "get it"... rather than understanding this crap i keep focusing on wanting to understand who made up this crap and why people believed it. of course i ask him this shit and it's always that x came from y. where did y come from? we don't know...
2. another thing that happens is that i point out contradictions. the response i get is that the language (translation) isn't doing the words justice. (on an side i wonder if christians use this line with the bible or overseas...) anyway, i can't get past the contradictions and therefore can't follow the allegedly logical "conclusions" based on those contradictions.
suggestions? i'm all for thinking this way IRL but the impending F will not be cool.
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Why are you taking a religion class? Wouldn't it be just as useful to take a class on the Wizard of Oz?
"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci
i needed to take something anyway and i actually thought it might help me in my activism to understand this crap. oh, the irony.
I had a similar problem as an undergraduate in a religions of the world survey course. Our instructor was also a theist, and he subtly engineered the tests to make Christianity look "right" and all the other religions "wrong." This was a problem for me because they all looked wrong.
I ended up with a B in the class, but only because I can hunker down and do rote memorization if I have to. I never could grasp the quirky way in which the religions were presented. Unfortunately, I think this means I don't have an answer for you. Can you drop the class? I hear underwater basket weaving is cool...
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
Dear Shelley,
it is really simple, you will find your answers here:
http://www.truthdig.com/avbooth/item/20070617_religion_politics_and_the_end_of_the_world/
i'll have to check out the video when i'm not in a public lab.
i should have dropped this damn class the moment i heard him say that we would not discuss any negative aspects of religion as we can't get the true "essence" of a religion by distracting ourselves with such things.
we're having a quiz tomorrow. after almost being in tears earlier i decided i'll show up one more day after making an all night attempt at rote memorization. if i don't do better i think i'm going figure out some way to get out.
Taking a religion class would be like taking a class on interpreting Luke Skywalker's "force". You have to regurgitate what the (teacher) COUGH COUGH(comic book expert) wants to hear.
If you put a physics formula in front of an atheist, a buddhist, or Jew, that same formula is going to yeild the same answer if all do it properly and beleif or lack of belief doesnt mean shit. You get it right when you follow directions and you get it wrong when you dont.
No holy book can do that because right and wrong is subjective so it is no suprise that when you didnt act like a lemming and you asked hard questions the teacher never heard before, they go by the falacious verson THEY themselves were taught.
I would get an F in their class because I probibly would be severly more blunt with my criticisms. Not because I am wrong, but because I refuse to lie to them or myself.
Regurgitating information does not mean you understand it. If theists went beyond simply regurgitating what popular belief has sold them, they would see what we see. But, what do you expect from people who refuse to put their egos in check.
You get a bad grade because you think outside the box. That challenges the comfort level of the social norm. They would hate me because at every turn I would remind them of the hocus pokus in their book.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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What level of education is this?
At university (at least where I studied) there should be a student union (we call it a student guild) that protects students from just this sort of nonsense. This is not isolated to religion. Some humanities lecturers think they can mark you down for not agreeing with their interpretations. I've seen a number of instances where people have successfully challenged bad marks from these people with the help of the student guild.
Just make sure your work is well presented, well argued, well researched and well referenced. Make it clear that the only reason you were marked down was a difference of opinion.
Naturally I know nothing about where you study so you should probably check the support resources you have at hand and find out if and how others have beat similar situations.
Mindless rote 'learning' and then reguritating the instructor's 'facts' would also work but personally If it was me I'd feel ashamed of myself. I've never really valued grades though.
Oh, a lesson in not changing history from Mr. I'm-My-Own-Grandpa!
What kind of system are you on? Is it too late to drop and find something else? It's okay to realize something isn't for you. I've done that with classes where the prof rubbed me the wrong way right off the bat.
Recently, I had to drop my third semester of music theory because 1) I was sick and 2) the other two people in the class hated my guts. In the first semester I opened my big, fat mouth and said some negative things about Christianity. Iruka say something negative about Christianity? Never!
I probably should have just kept my mouth shut, but I'm finding it harder and harder to do that.
Anyway, the person who held the grudge the longest was one of two people who managed to pass both semesters and stick with the course. The prof would put a couple of problems on the board and leave, during which time bitch-lady unleashed her fury. Her butt-boy just watched. Both of them ignored me unless they were saying something nasty. Dealing with illness and two people who hated me was just too much, so bye-bye to music theory.
Maybe I can pick it up again next year. Third semester music theory is only offered in the Fall semester, so when I dropped out, I knew I'd be dropping out for a whole year. Sucks, eh?
I have a BA and a California teaching credential. I just want to learn more about music without the pressure that's come to bear recently. Between a voice teacher who blamed me for illness and bitch-lady in music theory, I'm starting to get the distinct impression that this small town hates me for some reason.
Could it be...I don't know...ATHEISM?
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public university.
to be fair to him though he's not downgrading me for not believing as he does. it's that he says "ok, X believes Y so how would they practice Z?" now the answer is "A". however, i say "B" because "A" would be hypocritical for (list reasons). i just can't seem to think in the proper mindset to come up with the answer, so to speak. memorization it is.
Pardon my obscenity, but fuck that fucking fucker in his fucking fuckhole.
....
Hmmm... On reflection, I don't think I've completely recovered from my visit with the family.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
I'm with ParanoidAgnostic. As far as I'm aware, my university never discriminated against questions that were blatantly against their viewpoints.
I must admit that my topics of study were not religion, but as I come from a very secular country I would be very surprised if the religion card had have been pulled against me.
FWIW:
dearest Shelly, I would print out this web site etc, and secretly put it on your teachers desk, .... don't leave any finger prints ! Good luck .... seems the only way to pass that class is to abandon your logic and reason ......
Atheist Quotes http://www.philosophyofreligion.info/atheistquotes.html , a few of,"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason." Benjamin Franklin
"Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived." Isaac Asimov
"I reverse the phrase of Voltaire, and say that if God really existed, it would be necessary to abolish him." Mikhail Bakunin
"This crime called blasphemy was invented by priests for the purpose of defending doctrines not able to take care of themselves." Robert Ingersoll
"If a man would follow today, the teachings of the Old Testament, he would be a criminal. If he would follow strictly, the teachings of the new [ NT ], he would be insane." Robert Ingersoll
"The first requisite for the happiness of the people is the abolition of religion." Karl Marx
"Faith is believing what you know ain't so." Mark Twain
"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one." George Bernard Shaw hee hee ..... L O L
etc etc , I love Quotes , I have a collection of mabey 2 zillion ....
Atheism Books.
Tell me about it. If I didn't need to pass so bad I would find a way to fit a sentence like this into the discussion: "We really shouldn't discuss the executed Jews because it distracts us from Hitler's true essence of just wanting his ideal for his chosen people"
Well I think I'm going to drop...
Even though it's really going to screw up the next 4 months of my life (extending time here by taking something else) I have an F right now anyway.
Today he talked about atheism, btw. Apparently we have very "simplistic" attacks on God and do not address Buddhism at all since there is no 'god.' I wanted to raise my hand and say all sorts of things, but I'm going to send him a long e-mail instead and then drop. Perhaps putting it in writing cut down some profanity on my end.
At this point I think you're probably right to drop the class only if it's too late to catch up. But ideally I think that if you had kept your mind open and given the class a fair shake, you might have enjoyed the course and certainly benifited from it.
Any proper liberal arts education stresses the comparative aspects of the disciplines. These comparative exercises are a critical tool in any kind of social science, philosophy or political thought. It means you have to learn to understand how other people think and reason, which in some cases can be fundamentaly different from our own.
The important part of the excercise is for the students to set aside and step beyond their own personal beliefs and consider the world from another point of view.
It wouldn't surprise me at all to hear religious fundamentalists get upset over this class, as it asks them to put themselves into someone elses shoes.
I'm surprised and a little disapointed that a member of this group wouldn't be interested in learning how theists think (if indeed they do?) if only as a means to undermining that world view.
JDP
what's wrong with self-imoliation as a form of protest?
I am. Which is why I took this class in the first place. I didn't need this specific class and I could have gotten an easy A in any number of courses. I took this specific class because I wanted to learn and challenge myself.
However, in the midst of all this learning I do still need to pass - if I could even get a D I would stay but that isn't the case for this and a few other reasons. In fact, apparently the instructor has even read this specific thread. Hi there! :wave:
What an unethical asshat.
"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci
How is a professor reading this thread unethical?
If god takes life he's an indian giver
The prof. made some references to this to me... I think that's what Watcher was getting at.
I hope he’s still reading this thread and can see the obvious double standard and hypocrisy when these two statements are put side by side.
Oh, a lesson in not changing history from Mr. I'm-My-Own-Grandpa!
I think it would depend on the nature of the comments to decide if the prof was being unethical. If he just happened to stumble on this forum and your thread - that's one thing. If he sought it out, I believe that might be unethical.
If he just mentioned in passing that he saw this thread I don't see what is unethical about that. It's a public forum. I guess it just depends on his intentions.
If god takes life he's an indian giver
LOL! I read about your visit, Hamby. I was going to post, but it hit too close to home at the time. I can really empathize.
My entire life is like your visit to your family. Watch this space for updates because Iruka wants to move and may need ideas.
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Wow, is he related to my mother?
Hi Mom!!!
I don't know for sure how my mother discovered I was posting here. How did Mr. Prof find out?
Disclaimer: I really love my mother, but tracking my moves on the Internet is uncool.
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I may be wrong here, but I get the impression that the information he/she is finding out here about shelley is influencing how he/she is treating her in the class. How dare the prof mention to her all the "insider" info the skunk has snooped on her. How would that make anyone feel? Violated, uncomfortable, treated antagonisticly, etc.
Therefore I feel that to be unethical as it should not matter what the personal beliefs of the student are nor should it be used in such a way to gain the "upper hand" like some pissant Alpha male cur.
Of course it is all based on an impression so I admit I may be inferring something that does not exist.
Plus I wanted to tick the fucktard off if the prof was still monitoring the thread.
I'm a dick like that sometimes.
"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci
If this is this instructor's version of Cultural Relativism, then it's actually a legitimate approach to trying to understand a cultural phenomenon that isn't part of your own background. Anthropology would never have gotten out of the 19th century without this fundamental concept.
I'm with Jeff with the idea that this ability to understand and reproduce arguments that you don't necessarily agree with is a basic part of a liberal arts education. I don't agree with Mein Kampf, but I can detach from my opinion long enough to explain Hitler's reasoning to you.
It's possible that this professor's negative comments about atheism are a result of ignorance. Maybe he'd welcome the opportunity to learn more about it and incorporate it into his curriculum in a more informed way.
Or, on the other hand, it may be that he's an asshat. Some professors are.
"After Jesus was born, the Old Testament basically became a way for Bible publishers to keep their word count up." -Stephen Colbert
Good points. I disliked some of my professors, but if I hadn't attended college and been exposed to different ways of thinking, I would never have learned enough to make it out of fundamentalism. It didn't "take" until after I'd graduated. Funny, huh?
I had to write papers I didn't agree with. I might agree with some of them now. That's the funny part.
My professors wouldn't recognize me now. They still wouldn't agree with me, but they'd marvel at how my thinking has changed. My adversarial approach hasn't changed, though. Hehehe. I can be a right pain in the ass sometimes. 
BTW, I love Stephen Colbert, Textom. (I'm referring to your signature.) I sometimes wonder if he's a closeted atheist. Being a prominent Catholic who pokes fun at his own faith puts him in a better position to do so, wouldn't you say?
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Thanx for the support, Ikura. Your post made me think about how Colbert is a really good example of somebody who understands the opposition's arguments so deeply that he can seamlessly parody them. He sort of absorbs the contradictions built into the belief system and makes them into punch lines. Ironic humor is built around contradictions.
I want to give at least part of the credit for his viewpoint to his education in Drama at Northwestern...
"After Jesus was born, the Old Testament basically became a way for Bible publishers to keep their word count up." -Stephen Colbert
What's really strange is that many people, mostly right-wingers, didn't "get" Colbert and actually thought he believed what he was saying. Many right-wingers I know of still don't get it. He can slip in right under the radar. It's amazing.
I think that's part of the reason he was invited to the White House Correspondents' Dinner. Once he got there, he bumped it up a notch and suddenly the pretzeldent and news media toadies realized they were being verbally raped and it wasn't funny anymore...except to those of us watching at home.
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Bitch-slap that professor for me. He saounds like one where that Chia Professor could probably do a better job.
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If he's judging her based on her posts here then yes, I think it would be unethical. If he only mentioned that he's seen her on the forum, I don't think that is unethical. Depends on the context.
If god takes life he's an indian giver
Shelly, when I get up to teaching my religion class in a few months, feel free to sign up.
[mod edit: deleted repeated post]
I myself am a Theology Major as well as an Atheist and this is my advice. First I am assuming that when you say Religion class you mean it covers all religions and isn't just limited to Christianity. The way I would suggest approaching it is like any other subject. If you are taking an english class and you have to read Harry Potter(just an example) The thought of Magic and Spells and Flying brooms may contradict all logic but you can still come up with logical conclusions about the subject within context. I would just stick to answering the questions in terms of what is in the book. If you are using the bible or the Qua'ran then answer in terms of the Bible or the Quaran. I only try to point out contradictions to my teachers when they try to assume the "God" they are talking about is real. If they are merely discussing what the books contain and the messages and stories then that is fine...but beyond that don't over stress the illogical problems.
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Sorry my reply is coming late here - I was in the hospital.
I had never heard of 'cultural relativism' but thanks for the link and I can see how it applies. If he was going to do this though he should have:
1. really explained the why
2. not criticized atheism and Christianity (the course was eastern religions)
I initially thought my problems were due to my lack of belief keeping me from seeing anything beyond how ridiculous all this shit was... However, I talked to some other students and they were having the same problems. Basically, he wanted you to just figure out was "important" even if that meant the random second line in the third paragraph of the 25th page out of 70 we read that night...
I think if I hadn't assumed my lack of belief was the problem I would have wised up to this sooner. Anyway, it all came to a halt when either he googled me (or perhaps this other guy that sat a few seats from me did). This is when he made the negative comments about atheism - his comments before were rather neutral. I confronted him and he blatantly insulted me -- mostly based on my disability. I should have been humiliated that he said this crap to me in front of other students but honestly I was embarrassed for him. I cried for a while and then dropped the class. I also reported this situation to three other admin people. Hopefully at least he'll learn something from all this as I really didn't...
If he insulted you about your disability, he should be fired. That sounds more like a 12 year old, not a college professor.
Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team
Yeah, if this is the case, then it's time to go to your Dean of Students with a formal complaint.
It probably won't be a surprise to the dean. When profs act like this, it's nearly always a long-term pattern of abuses and complaints.
"After Jesus was born, the Old Testament basically became a way for Bible publishers to keep their word count up." -Stephen Colbert
What a shit, I mean this man, this professor is a fucking bastard.
In any case I would like to discuss the matter from another point of view:
I would like to suggest you to discuss religion on philosophical bases and not on "evil earth and men" basis.
I think that your essays would be stronger in this way.
I mean that I would not discuss fascism thinking starting from what Mussolini did in Italy, because I think it would be better to say "fascism way of thinking was wrong because" and not "fascism was bad because Mussolini killed a lot of people".
I fail to see how can you try to "understand" faith
I would like to remind you that Religion is bullshit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o
like 2+2=5. And how do you want to understand that 2+2=5 ? Theology is not a science ! It is more like politics, just learn ideologically "right" answers and pass this shit. And for sake of reason don't do this again !
If he really reads this:
Greetings "professor": " Are you feeling better throwing insults on somebody disability ? Is it your way of discussion ? So go fuck yourself narrow-minded prick." I am sure you will hind this argument familiar.
GOOD LUCK Shelley !
Ecrasez l'infame!
If that's the case than he was acting unethically and should be reported. Sometimes profs think tenure gives them the right to do anything.
If god takes life he's an indian giver
Another idiot philosophy teacher who thinks he's got it all covered and that his authority gives him any form of validity.
Every religious terrorist/zealot/apologist/preacher uses the exact same technique when they try to defend a philosophical position with religion:
Anything negative this professor heard about his "infallible" religion was dismissed before it became a realistic issue. In a nutshell, he's a little bitch whiner who plays all alone on his own little football field and claims he's number one and tries to keep anyone else from entering the field.
This is a tough one, but for me I really enjoy roll playing and debating shit I don't believe so this is kind of second nature to me.
Best I could recommend is pretend it's D&D and you're learning your character history. It's okay if it doesn't make sense, it's just a big fairy tale anyway.
heh ok now i've read the rest of the thread...
what a fuck...i'd report the nob and see how he feels when he's living in a van down by the river
In case you guys are wondering... I did report him to three people so far and plan to go the disability office and complain as soon as they open for the spring.