Unsettling thought about the potential for widespread atheism
Offline I just read another article about the consistent decrease in younger generations being able to read and comprehend complex ideas.
Now I don't know what led any other former christians or whatnot from their religion after they had completely accepted it, but for me, it was books. Six years of sitting on a Navy Cruiser reading books by Carl Sagan, Albert Einstein, Richard Feynman, and Stephen Hawking among many others.
After reading all of those books learning about the universe and the world, being introduced to complex and wonderful ideas...well it built up in me the ability to reason clearly, to be able to comprehend the difference between good and bad ideas. To see reality.
If reading continues to decline, well most of the people in the future generations will never be able to obtain the tools they need to break free from the grasp of religion.
Is atheism destined to become the outlook of only the most intelligent elite among humanity? Only the people who thirst for knowledge? Is Kirk Cameron the future of the American Public?
*shivers*
"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci
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Well, atheism isn't that complex - There is no God, end of. It's arguable, that it can be hard to let go of religion if you've been indoctrinated as a child, but atheism, in my opinion at lest, is simpler than any religion.
If the worst does happen, and people start accepting dogma as fact, because they are too uneducated to realise otherwise, maybe a greater negative correlation between IQ and religious beliefs will be noticeable, and people will begin to follow on behind the 'clever' people.
(Sorry i used an appeal to authority, but anyone without the ability to understand atheism wouldn't be fussed over a small fallacy in my argument).
Isn't it enough to believe that a garden is beautiful, without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it?
I'm guessing this only applies to the United States? I don't really see that happenning anywhere else.
The biggest problem isn't the students (they aren't getting genetically stupider, time frame is too short), in the US, it is the education system, which Bill Gates called obsolete, and the culture, which openly promotes anti-intellectualism.
There is a precedent to this. In Nazi Germany, the Nazis propogated a deeply anti-intellectual culture and curricula among the nation's children. The purpose of education was to make them blindly loyal to Hitler, PE was strongly emphasized as it was more important that they be physically strong for their later drafting into the military. The Nazis strongly discouraged critical thinking and academia, feeling that such activities would ruin their pure, blindly believing young people. However, this was halted almost as soon as it began, as leading German intelligentsia warned the Nazis that they were soon to produce a generation of youngsters who did not have the capability of running a military-scientific-industrial society, and the Germans would soon fall behind other nations in research and technology capacities because the next gen were too stupid to maintain it. After that, the Reichsjugendfuhrer more or less ceased interfering with the curricula, especially in tertiary education. THe number of graduates rose again, and the pass rates in high schools and the curricula was restored to prior academic rigority. Of course, none of that mattered since the next year, the Russian armies crossed the Oder and drove into Berlin, but you get the idea.
If it makes you feel any better, something does need to be done about this because the current education system and culture in the United States in which students are raised does not merely raise the propensity towards religiosity, it makes such people too stupid to run an industrial-information society (the Nazis discovered this to their dismay). If anything, in subsequent generations, we will need a more educated citizenry, much more, not less. Presumably this should give those who can do something incentive to make widespread changes as eventually some bright spark will realize that the culture and schooling in the united states is churning out a group of mindless, corporatized zombies.
"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.
-Me
Books about atheism
There is no god, is simple. But if you dont know Ochams Razor, or understand why spirit sperm is an absurdity, merely saying " I dont believe in god, makes you an atheist, but not an educated one. Which would be as vulnerable as a 5 year old being told that Jesus loves them.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Natural selection, intelligence is of limited value in our society, better chances if you have less.
The smart ppls only chance is to get of this planet really quick
Sorry, im not in the cognitive condition right now to respond more sophistically^^
Later, AdamTM
- I'm the guy that gets called when the other guy is not around-
- I didnt feel the love! ...Wait...was that something? ...no, no its gone -
TWATWAFFLE FOREVER
I agree that in the Western World, this seems to be a particularly American problem. If anything, most of Western Europe seems to have moved away from religious fundamentalism. America seems rather unique in its zeal and ignorance.
Another very real consideration is the spread of Islam, which I view as a more insidious and harmful version of Christianity. There's not much I can do about it, since I'm American, but it's a very real problem.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
Hambi, I think your avatar is all to understand the absurtity of theistic division. Yes, people shout a good game, and have the weapons to inflict harm on the oposition, but in the end the fiction is the pussy and the AK-47 is the real human believing that the pussy will produce the mushroom cloud to get the Jesus/Allah fans past the velvet ropes.
If only people took theism as seriously as your avatar is taken, the worst we would get as humans is a snide comment about our oposition or their oposition.
I feel like that kitten when I want to jack slap a Christian or Muslim or Socialist or Politically correct atheist. That avatar dipicts every emotion I feel when I want to shout, "WILL ALL OF YOU FUCKING RELAX!"
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
It amuses me when theists say I'm depicting violence with my avatar. Most of them are not very good at recognizing irony.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
I agree that the idea of atheism is simple. But the ability to disregard the ideas put forth by various religions requires critical thinking.
Kirk Cameron fell prey to religion with a gusto because he did/does not have these mental tools.
And yes, this is only starting in America so far. I believe that technological increases/use are mainly behind it. Short texting messages full of OMG, TTYL, LMAO, the kids simply do not need to read long complex things for entertainment. When I was a kid you had cartoons for about 6 hours Saturday morning and that was it for the week. If you wanted cartoons after that, you read comic books. Now they have cartoon channels running 24/7. Now kids have video games and DVDs, heck when I was very young you couldn't even rent videos. Why engage in the "burden" of reading for entertainment? There are so many much easier non-thinking forms of entertainment.
For years the entire world loved to talk about how fat the people of America were getting.
Well now Europeans are starting to pack on the pounds.
I feel somewhat biased to the thought that, with the Western world at least, what you see generally happening in America for some things (First obesity and I think next reading comprehension) will eventually spread to Europe.
With the sharp decrease in christianity and the frightening increase in islamic influence in Europe, I cringe at the idea of Europe following American's trend of reading comprehension decrease.
Hopefully I will be dead of old age before it gets too bad. However what about my children? And what of my potential grandchildren?
Gah, fuck all religions. Fuck whoever first started trying to write down such nonsense.
"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci
Dont laugh, if L Ron Hubbard can turn a si fi book into a bastardized version of the prior fiction of the myth of Jesus, it would not suprise me in the least if some idiots turned the Klingon language into another religion later to be taken as litteral.
As ADD as our species is, I would not be suprised if 1,000 years from now there was a Harry Potter cult as mainstreem as Christianity.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
In all seriousness, I fear you are correct to think that.
"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci
Personally I find one modern development which increases my opportunity to keep across current ideas and intelligent commentary is the podcast/audioBook/iPod thing. It obviously depends on just what you choose to listen to, but I think that was ever the case, even with books/comics.
This allows me to have continuing stimulating input while doing otherwise mentally tedious tasks, like routine shopping, commuting, exercise, especially for those activities that don't lend themselves to reading.
I have had comments that this practice may squeeze out opportunities for quiet contemplation or meditation, and there is something to that, but that is another story again.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
We are talking about a species that had a segment of the species that believed for over 3 thousand years that a giant ball of burning gass gave a ratts ass about your daily lives from everything from crops to sex and his name was RA. The Eygptian sun god is as antiquated and dead.
I would love for the world to get on the same page as Thomas Jefferson where diety claims are as absurd as Jesus being the same as Minerva being born out of the brain of Jupiter.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
I don't remember where I read it, but there have been studies showing a lower academic competency and lower standard of living in countries where religion is predominant in their culture. The more secular the country the higher the level of academic competence and a higher standard of living as well. Religion melts the brain!
"Erecting the 'wall of separation between church and state,' therefore, is absolutely essential in a free society." Thomas Jefferson
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Watcher, *shivers*
I am a total optimist, just in a hurry, and I don't like to hurry, damn it !
BobSpence is a cool cowboy, while I am an Indian !
Yup, the beer is kicking in , hee haw .....
Atheism Books.
The internet is today's tool for the spread of rational thinking. Young people today are much more involved in intelligent conversation than when I was a teenager in the 60s. They may not read more books, but because of the internet they participate in debates and intelligent conversation much more.
When I was 18 years old, I knew of nobody who questioned the existence of god or talked about the irrationality of religion. It just wasn't done. A subject such as atheism never even crossed our minds back then. Our free time was spent partying or in front of the TV. I'm sure there must have been some intelligent conversations among young people. But since there was no internet, only a very few participated.
That has changed. Many more young people today participate in intelligent discussions and debates in forums such as this one. The younger generation is much more intellectually advanced than mine was. Young minds today have a better chance to break free from the grasp of religion and irrational thought. I think we have good reason to be optimistic.
Frosty's coming back someday. Will you be ready?
RickRebel, Yes Yes, to be proud of what we really are and it will be known,
and no wars, no rich, only love. Star Dust we all are ....
"Call me a dreamer but I'm not the only one"
The very idea of community and helping one another is our greatest human legacy, for all time.
come together .... Love is our law ...
I am proud to be god ! Are you ? You can be ....
say these words, I AM GOD ! believe it, You are.
Atheism Books.
Well atheism isnt complicated but science is.
Evolution while the very basics can be sumed up in a few sentences the details are 1000's of doctorates. I considered myself to be resaonable educated but when I read The Selfish Gene I realised how little I really understood about evolution (I have a Physics degree).
So much easier to say 'god did it' , so its do a PHD in a extremely complicated subject to have some idea of how the world works or get someone to quote the bible to you.
PS can't get out of my head Watcher reading high brow books on his battleship. I know sterotypes are unfair but the military and reading books just brings a grin to my face
huh?
Frosty's coming back someday. Will you be ready?
How can anyone have "intelligent conversations" in a forum or chatroom if they cannot understand complex written material?
For every site like this you will find a hundred sites dedicated to a video game, famous person fan club, or whatnot. Sure if you seek out and only really mess with forums like this you can get the impression that everyone is talking more intelligently.
I keep running into people that think the banana is the "atheists nightmare" because it somehow proves this planet is designed for humans.
Running into opposing views on the internet does not somehow magically grant someone the ability to multiply their reading comprehension and critical thinking skills. Before you can develop critical thinking you have to be able to have a well developed reading comprehension ability.
"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci
Not everything written has to be 5 billion sylibles to understand. I have found in my life, both in acedimic and outside, that when the more wordy pontificators break it down, there are not many concepts that any human cant understand.
If it doesnt take a rocket scientist to understand that Thor did not make lighting, I am quite sure it doesnt take Einstien to understand that ghosts dont knock up girls anymore than Muslims will get 72 virgins in an afterlife.
If both the Muslim and Christian can rightfully reject the claim of Spiderman vs the Green Goblin being real, it shouldnt be a strectch to be intellectualy honest enough to apply that same scrutiny to their own claims of hocus pokus.
I dont know everything about the universe. But I certainly know being 41, that stories of hocus pokus are safe enough to throw in the trash can of ideas like I did with Santa and the tooth fairy.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Complex and long are two different things. The studies I am reading are not saying that the younger generation can't read a long bit of writing.
It's saying they can't comprehend complex written communication.
"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci
I am suddenly gripped with an overpowering need to dig out my copy of Fahrenheit 451 http://www.raybradbury.com/books/fahrenheit451.html
Slowly building a blog at ~
http://obsidianwords.wordpress.com/
That does point to a cause for concern, which seems to be related to the 'attention span', the amount of time a person is able to concentrate on a particular activity or topic. The modern entertainment environment does seem to make it harder to develop the discipline, or whatever is required, to be able to concentrate on one thing for a sustained period of time, at least partly due to the number of interesting distractions we are now often surrounded with.
And some things do require sustained attention, because we need to grasp and hold in our mind a number of thoughts/insights that are part of a complex argument until the argument reaches its closing statements.
I don't think it is necessarily peculiar to physical books, because the internet also increases our access to major discourses, especially historical ones, but at the same time it massively increase the potential for distraction, whereas a book is something you can settle down with in relatively distraction free environment to study.
For myself, I grew up at a time where written material was the main source of information/entertainment available 'on demand', free of time and place restrictions. The only other sources of entertainment or public information were movies, live shows, public lectures, radio (but no portable radios), museums and similar institutions, not as immediately available as a book, or today's internet or portable mp3 player/radio reciever. This presumably meant that, as someone who became 'driven' to seek new information on 'reality' especially in the scientific sense, I read a lot of books, and so effectively trained my capacity to maintain the sustained concentration needed to absorb complex written material.
So maybe I am fortunate in retaining at least some ability to read complex arguments, while also being able to take advantage of the positive aspects of the 'information revolution'. I am currently working my way thru Dennett's 'Freedom Evolves', which certainly does require a a goodly amount of sustained attention, rewarded with some fascinating and illuminating insights, as I 'get' what he is driving at. Not something easily conveyed in 'sound bites'.
So I agree, I think there could be a significant problem here.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
RickRebel , huh ?
--- Damn me, I need Buddha help, thinking 1 2 3
yeah Okay, god ? Who the shit cares .... this is god you silly god of abe nutters ....
.... that was funny - No ?
Atheism Books.
I tend to agree - the basic 'errors' of Theism are fairly straightforward, and the convoluted attempts to defend them can usually be shown to be attempts to dodge the point and confuse the argument.
But there are other topics, some related to the issue of theism/atheism, which aren't that simple, like the actual psychology of belief, and discussions on just how we might usefully encourage society to move in a more open, enlightened, free-thought-friendly, direction.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
A person of average education or average intelligence still has the potential for crtitcal thinking. It doesn't take a well developed reading comprehension to see the absurdity of zombies walkiing the earth or an invisible boogy man lurking around tempting us to do evil things.
Because of the internet, people have access to information like never before. And that includes information that encourages critical thinking and challenges superstitious beliefs.
Take me for instance. I'm not brilliant. My IQ is about average. My vocabulary is high school level. I barely finished two years of college. I would never read a book by Stephen Hawkins because my mind can't comprehend what he's talking about. Yet, I can somehow figure out that it's not logical for a donkey to talk, a stick to turn into a snake, or a corpse to be dead for three days and then get up and walk around.
Frosty's coming back someday. Will you be ready?
I desperately hope you are right, Rick. But I greatly fear you are wrong.
"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci
I'm not going to say that it is an intrinsic human trait to grasp well-explained material. However, I have a favorite fry cook that enjoys reading and understands the recent postulates, hypotheses, and theories concerning sub-atomic particles. (At least as well as I do. lol.) as long as they are explained in language that can make the infinitesimal seem observable.
Now, he can't balance his checkbook, has 3 children by two different women, and his register once came out $316 over, but he can visualize three dimensions of a proton collision and understand that particles travel at different speeds, sizes, and rotations away from the collision.
Why? Fuck if I know. I brought a whole stack of printouts from Fermilab and CERN to read and I was his only customer. When I was unable to go out for breakfast due to being short of funds, he invited me down and asked me to bring more and offered a free breakfast.
He was as reassured by what we together felt the data means, matter is matter. no god needed.
We started from an atom and went from there down. Of course, we had to put the salt shakers, ketchup bottles, etc. back into their normal positions before the day manager came into work.
At least give the people who were bored or overwhelmed in school a chance to be interested, nay intrigued, by it. I would trade a picture of the CMS detector for any religiously-inspired 'masterpiece' at Sotheby's. They are capable of feeling as much 'AWE" (I hate that word, but it fits) as we are when confronted with things such as this.
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Imparting the abilty to read ones own language surely has to be the greatest thing anyone can give (to a child along with the ability to write). With this ability any knowledge can be obtained given the opportunity. It's the sole reason why books should be kept forever no matter their content. It allows the "student" i.e anyone, to encounter, absorb, process, interpret, analyse, disseminate etc and therefore be introduced to the ideas of others without personal knowledge regardless of subject, without predudice or "guiding".
Once an indivual is able to read they are able to question text simply beacuse they can understand what is written.
This sentence cannot be emphasised enough.
It's the sole basis as to why reading was discouraged and only the privileged were taught because knowledge is power. A tool to disseminate understanding and knowledge is the most powerful of all and once everyone has this ability then everything can be understood and then held up to scrutiny and communicated!
This isn't just about education with regard to science or history or mathematics but the joy of reading about another's story whether factual or fictional. It opens up a whole new dimension which allows the individual to think without constraint.
Lean toward the hope side, Watcher.
Your own experience of coming to understand critical thinking came from reading, but that's not true of everyone. Some people (and I'm one of them) are very heavily oriented toward reading and writing. But Gardner's theory of Multiple Intelligences, which is a fundamental idea in educational circles, suggests that reading isn't the only or best path to critical thought. Like Bob and Rick both point out, analytical thought is available to people by other means--and some of those means are better now than they used to be.
My own experience of my students is that many of them just don't like to read. They're all capable of critical thinking (although they need coaching in how to apply it systematically and in a self-aware way), and reading helps. But reading is not the exclusive basis for analytic thought.
"After Jesus was born, the Old Testament basically became a way for Bible publishers to keep their word count up." -Stephen Colbert
Maybe you're right, Textom. Maybe I am just being pessimistic.
I'll keep monitoring the atheist percentages of the population over the years and see where it's going.
Hopefully atheism will continue to increase in the percentage in the years to come.
"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci
No to get too preachy... BUT
I'd rather you aid the laypeople of the world by inspiring freethinking instead of 'monitoring'. LOL.
All of our 'hoping' must be coupled with active discourse with everyone, even those we may consider beneath us in station, education, or both.
Consider the self-application of Rich Rodriguez's phrase: "Hands that help are far better than lips that pray"
OK OK. I'm not saying we don't already do much. However, if we can get 3 out of 5 people to think about something new then I would gamble 1 out of 5 will follow up with their own research. Almost like a freethinker/skeptic/atheist pyramid scheme.
Atheist Books, purchases on Amazon support the Rational Response Squad server, which houses Celebrity Atheists.