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Posted on: January 3, 2008 - 9:19pm
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friends
Hey,
I'm interested to know cases in which you had a religious friend and you witnessed firsthand, their deconversion to atheism.
Were you one of the causes?
Did you blow it up their face or did you have a more suttle approach?
How did their family or community react? How did it affect your friendship?
You know anyone? I would love to hear what happened and your account of this.
Thanks.
moi! miten menee? (From South Africa.)
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This hasn't happened to anyone?
Woaw.
I almost replied to you earlier but I didn't have much of a response. Sure, I've see people "deconvert" but never in an instant that I could specifically describe with one reaction.
I have been partly responsible for one friends deconversion and fully responsible for my brothers. With my friend it started with having conversations while I was training him to work with me. Granted he is a genious and had his doubts based on things in our religion that seemed illogical to him his whole life. I just reaffirmed his doubts with facts and reason over a couple of months and he naturally came to the conclusion.
My brother on the other hand was a bit different. We grew up in a fundamentalist baptist home. We went to christian schools until college and I never doubted much until then. I converted after reading many books of philosophy and science and a year long emotional battle over it (Ayn Rand probably being what convinced me to give up the emotional side).
When I came back from college, I slammed my brother with everything I had come to realize and after a very short time and very little trouble he holds the same things, generally, as true.
Hopefully I answered your questions ^^
Peace.
Thats cute.
ateisti, "Did you blow it up their face or did you have a more subtle approach? "
-- Both, but usually more subtle, and trying always to be compassionate and healing.
KInd of goes like this: "I sure do like that Jesus, he was so Buddha like, who was an atheist you do know ?"
I am relentless with all my friends regarding religion, as they will now say,
"Yes dude, I agree, god of abe is silly, just as Jesus, a buddha tried to say."
This short Alan Watts essay is helpful http://groups.msn.com/TheContinuanceofAlanWattsPhilosophy/wasjesusafreak.msnw
this is also nice,
"Let this mind be in you." that is to say, let the same kind of consciousness be in you that was in Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ knew he was God.
"Wake up" and find out eventually who you also really are. In our culture of course, they'll say you're crazy or you're blasphemous, and they'll either put you in jail or in the nut house (which is the same thing). But if you wake up in India and tell your friends and relations, "My goodness, I've just discovered that I'm God," they'll laugh and say, "Oh, congratulations, at last you found out."
from "The Drama of It All" , Alan Watts
Atheism Books.
As was said, I've seen people become atheistic, but it's not something that happens in a moment, though I have heard that for some people there is a sort of moment of realization or moment of honesty with themselves that causes a pretty emotional reaction.
Was it the RRS interview with Prof. Dawkins where it was mentioned that some students were breaking down and crying at his discussions? I think it might have been.
Anyway, I've never seen anything quite like that. Any deconversions I've seen have been gradual.
A place common to all will be maintained by none. A religion common to all is perhaps not much different.
I've helped a few friends on their journey away from childhood casual religion, largely through ridicule (not of them personally, but religious conepts on a broad scale), and I've found that loaning out various "new atheism" books is a good way to dislodge fence-sitters who have a lingering voice in the back of their head of parents or childhood religious leaders. The End of Faith is the most effective, I think, for its direct and aggressive tone, and relative accessibility.
The lesson of history is that we do not learn the lessons of history.
'witnessed' the 'deconversion' firsthand?
Over time. Yes. Never in an instant or after only one conversation.
Most often it's better with some listening and just 'on-point' questions leading circuitously to the real reason they 'believe' anything on 'faith' at all.
Why did you say, "Bless you"?
How far away do you think those stars are from us?
What makes you believe that anyone loves you without them telling you face-to-face?
I think it's pretty shameful of some of my 'friends' that deconverted with my 'help' NOT to come out openly. I understand their reasons, but it prevents them from being included in my close ring of true friends that I cherish.
Atheist Books, purchases on Amazon support the Rational Response Squad server, which houses Celebrity Atheists.
Thats pretty interesting. Yah, I'd expect it to take some months at least if not longer.
I guess the trick is to hint at things that cause a butterfly effect of thought which leads to more ideas.
Here another thought, has there been anyone you were very sure would not become atheistic, but thats what happened?
Most prominent example I have is my friend whos a rabbai's daughter. Man, I never saw that coming....
moi! miten menee? (From South Africa.)
That can't be too unexpected....after all, don't children tend to rebel against their parents?
The lesson of history is that we do not learn the lessons of history.
I'm gently working on my roommate. I showed her, "The God Who Wasn't There" and I think it was enough to create some questions...she's been asking me questions every so often. But, she did watch it through "stained glass" and scoffed at a few parts. We both used to attend the same church, but because of the crazy people there we both stopped going...I naturally gravitated toward atheism because I've always had some doubts in the back of my mind and she hasn't really given it any thought...just accepted the fact that she was simply a christian "backslider".
With people who were/are deeply brainwashed with christianity (as my roommate is and I was) you simply have to be very patient and just be there to answer questions when they come up. If you press the issue you really come off just like the christians do when they are trying to proselytize you...overbearing.
Also, her dad is in the hospital and death is something she is having to deal with...so it's not really the time to say, "Hey, you know what? There isn't a heaven or a hell...you just DIE!" She probably needs to believe that there is a heaven right now in order to get through this.
For me though...realizing that there wasn't a heaven or a hell was a HUGE relief! I felt like I had won the lottery! After being tormented up until now with the thought that I had to earn some sort of afterlife was stressful and the cause of alot of depression and anxiety. I'm extatic that I simply die and go back to the earth!
Any of you share this excitement about no afterlife???
"Chlorinating the Gene Pool"
In my experience, deconversion is usually gradual. It's not like conversion in that sense. Most people I know who are deconverted theists just gradually drifted away from religion, and then once they had some distance, began calling themselves non-religious, or spiritual but not religious, or some such. One friend in particular has just become comfortable with the word "atheist" after literally years of not believing in god.
To answer your question more directly, yes, I have had people I know tell me that my influence helped them leave religion.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism