Why are theists so hostile?
Offline Why does it seem that every theist that I come across gets hostile the moment you start pointing out all of these contradictions, evils, and other problems with their religion. It seems like with two particular people I know that no matter how well your reasoning is articulated that they just wont hear it because he/she is so absolutely sure that what they have been told is true even though they cant provide any evidence to support the fact. I guess im just really asking how can people be so reasonable about some things but when it comes to religion its closed doors and no one is allowed in? Does anyone think because these theists are taught not to doubt? I've come to understand doubt as being a healthy part of life in order to find truth. I'm just curious if anyone has a method of getting into these "closed doors" and making these people get out of this delusion.
Doubt is the root of all wisdom. - Unknown
Knowing will come from the practice of understanding - Myself
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Yes. Theists are taught that there is one thing that they must never question -- faith. Even the most liberal theists will not question faith as a virtue, at least not honestly.
Almost all attacks on theism involve an attack on faith, for that is the crux of the issue. Theists believe things despite a complete lack of evidence. Pointing this out makes them very defensive, for they must either defend faith as a virtue (which they can't) or they must refute the facts laid against them (which they can't). In either case, the attack lays bare the cognitive dissonance which is necessary to be a believer.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
Belief despite understanding the logic, and three steps to freedom
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
On a complete side note Hamby, I noticed your sig. You might want to change it to, "Why would I want your autograph?" Brian37(me) responding to Danniel Dennett when I told him I got Dawkins autograph when leaving the AAI convention, he offered me his, but I didnt recognize his face. DOH!
But it is kind of related to this topic(your sig). It is also fun to point out to crapinists that even scientists who do have a belief in a god(rare) do buy evolution as fact.
It really is the same reaction a kid gives when someone spills the beans about Santa. You cant tell someone ghosts dont knock up girls, it distroys their fantacy.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
HA!
That's damn funny. I hope he took it in stride. He seemed like a really easy going guy.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
Your followers are hostile.
NO WE ARE NOT! TAKE THAT BACK OR I WILL BEAT YOU UP!
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Thank you very much HambyDammit. I loved your article. I will give it some thought tonight. Peace
Doubt is the root of all wisdom. - Unknown
Knowing will come from the practice of understanding - Myself
LOL @ Brian37s comment that is funny and sad at the same time.
Actually he did, and chuckled about it. Nice guy.
It was funny because right as I finished that sentance I looked down and saw his badge, "Danniel Dennet, guest speaker" DOH!
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
One thing you have to remember: Its very easy to come across as an ass in the middle of an argument. They may be getting hostile towards you simply because your taking a tone of voice that they dont like. Also, people in general dont like losing arguments, so they tend to get pissed and say "No, you're wrong" and stop trying to argue. This is true for all arguments, religious or otherwise.
Now for a disclamer: These are my opinions, and they are not always true in all cases, but this is what I think.
Theists get hostile over religious arguments because they are afraid that you might be right. Remember, a theist is no longer afraid of death because of the afterlife, and they are afraid that if they dont believe, they will go to hell. Fear is a powerful motivation in religion. Its the one thing that drove me away from it. I always thought that there was something very wrong with the idea of being afraid of god, even when I was a little kid. So when you start making arguments that make sense, they get afraid. And as we all know, fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, and hate leads to suffering (I just had to do that). Thats my theory.
"I may be going to hell in a rocketship, but at least I get to ride in a rocketship. You have to climb those damn stairs. " - Katie Volker
It's not a delusion. It is a lie. And they know it.
I think atheists/freethinkers have to stop playing the game with them. We know they don't really believe, they just say they believe. We know they are suckers for Pascal's wager and just following their indoctrination.
Religion is a drug, the opiate of the morons. The religious get a high out the fantasy. Many woman love feminized Christianity because it presents Jesus as the perfect bridegroom, the man who loves them unconditionally. It is analogous to porn addition in men who fantasize about the perfect sex partner. Now, if a regular guy claims he has hot sex with a different supermodel every night, you wouldn't indulge his lies. Eventually he would be shamed into not speaking as if his fantasies were true.
If you keep on enabling the religious addict and his or her fantasy, they have no reason to stop. Ask them exactly which stories of the bible are true and which ones are myth. Challenge them to take a lie detector test. Ask them to scientifically prove prayer works. Listen to their lame excuses. Then make sure they know that you know that the don't really believe.
It's not the God delusion. It's the God lie.
Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen
Why Are Atheists So Angry?
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
Hehe WhiteMan wasnt that from yoda. I agree with you. I have thought this before regarding fear perhaps it will be of some use in arguments to get them away from this god delusion. In nature and in people any animal or person who feels threatened does what? The animal or person does everything it can to get out of danger or away from whats causing fear. Thats probably why animals in the wild run from people because they see us as a predator and fear for their lives. These major theistic gods threaten it seems at every turn so perhaps they feel like they have no where to run. Perhaps if there was someway to convince them that isnt true. While we are quoting movies "Fear is the mind killer, I will face my fears and let them pass through me" hehe from Dune if you've never seen it. Thanks for all your words everyone. Now to EXC"If you keep on enabling the religious addict and his or her fantasy, they have no reason to stop. Ask them exactly which stories of the bible are true and which ones are myth. Challenge them to take a lie detector test. Ask them to scientifically prove prayer works. Listen to their lame excuses. Then make sure they know that you know that the don't really believe."Thats just it this one person I can't get her to say anything one way or another about this subject. I presented many of what i percieve to be solid reasons for my own atheism to her in a calm and subtle manner. I tried my best not to come across like im not all knowing or anything to this person. I never thought of asking them to prove what is true and not. I may try this approach. I think a major problem is also that they dont understand the word belief. They think I believe that god does not exist...That isn't true, I infact have no belief. They closest thing i have is opinion towards things like women, food, art, feelings, etc...I've tried to explain this but they have a hard time of understanding it. Anyway good discussion to everyone. Peace be to all of you
Doubt is the root of all wisdom. - Unknown
Knowing will come from the practice of understanding - Myself
I think one reason theists get so angry is because other popele won't see the "fact'' of what they believe.
I know that when I was a theist, I would have been foaming at the mouth livid if I had happened on this site. Not because it was challenging my beliefs,but because it couldn't see the 'truth'. You see,I didn't really care if I couldn't defend my beliefs, beacause the bible said I was right and you were going to hell so that was that wasn't it? But I simply couldn't comprehend how people couldn't see the simple 'truth'. That's what made me angry. Just me thoughts.
man I was such a freak..
Psalm 14:1 "the fool hath said in his heart there is a God"-From a 1763 misprinted edition of the bible
Argument from Sadism: Theist presents argument in a wall of text with no punctuation and wrong spelling. Atheist cannot read and is forced to concede.
There is no doubt that confronting someone saying "everything you believe is wrong" is going to put them on the defensive. Even I would doubt and object to such a claim about things that are scientific. I get the same way when someone says evolution is a hoax because it seems so clear to me that it is logical and simplistic. To that extent, we have to realize that theists are the same way about their beliefs. It seems reasonable to them. People also look at these attacks on their faith as accusing them of being stupid, and comments such as "delusional" they find insulting. And rightfully so because that is the intent of the comments.
The defensive response is 100% logical and rational and I would be shocked if religion didn't last this long if people didn't have an emotional and defensive approach to their religion when it gets attacked.
You also have to remember that one of the fundamental things taught by religion is that "faith is a virtue" and they constantly preach about how having faith in the view of contrary information is a positive thing.
If you believe in something passionately for your whole life and someone attacks it, of course you will become hostile.
It's like...being a 6 year old and having someone tell you your mother has just died. You love your mother, you need your mother....you do not want her to be dead, and will become hostile at those who say she is.
That's half of it.
After all, I've believed in gravity my entire life, and you challenge that, it's unlikely I'll become hostile..
Disagreements that can be settled by argument are settled by argument.
Disagreements that cannot be settled by argument are settled by violence.
"Hitler burned people like Anne Frank, for that we call him evil.
"God" burns Anne Frank eternally. For that, theists call him 'good.'
Reminds me of part of Euthyphro where Socrates said people dont argue about what is bigger, heavier, etc - but about what is better, or more moral, etc. One exception though would be how plenty of Christarded asshats argue against evolution, when it IS proven to anyone with a lick of sense who actually reads about it (other than in creationist books/websites)
Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team
Oh? If someone started pointing out that gravity was all a sham, provided evidence of such, and called you a moron for blindly believing in it...you wouldn't respond with "So's your face"?
Theists believe because they want to. We are making it very hard for them, so it makes them angry. The real argument is is it better to live in delusion or understand the world as it really is? Any argument for delusion is an argument to smoke crack. Maybe it feels good, but it's a waste of a life and its hurting society as a whole.
Two possible reasons that haven't been mentioned yet:
1. You are insulting their god. Of all the things that a human could do, saying that the christian god doesn't exist seems to be the worst thing. I'm also reminded of sport fans that flip out when someone starts talking shit about their favorite player.
2. Religion has enjoyed a special status for a long time. It was, and many still considered it to be rude to make critical comments about someone's religion. Of course this is complete bull shit, religions demand respect that was never earned.
I personally believe that the best way to get into the "closed doors" is to show that faith is not a virtue. Laugh at it or curse at it, but never let anyone get away with trying to pass faith off as a virtue.
Readiness to answer all questions is the infallible sign of stupidity. Saul Bellow, Herzog
I wouldn't. I'd take a cursory glance at the evidence, and when I saw that it was a sham, I'd laugh at the guy and politely move to another conversation.
The point is that people who have insecure beliefs get offended when you challenge them. If they were really certain (as I am certain of gravity) they wouldn't get mad. They'd just show us the evidence.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
Well you're a mature one. The difference here is that Theists NEED god to be real. They WANT him to be real.
If gravity were found not to exist, I don't think it would bother you too much.
If you tell a theist that god doesn't exist, it's like telling a 6 year old their mom is dead.
There's a big differnece between gravity and god.
If gravity didn't exist and was proven incorrect we still see the effects of 'something' and whatever took the place of gravity would now explain that.
God, on the other hand, encapsulates things that for a lot of people is the fundamental nature of hteir life, their existance. They are not being replaced by anything that gives them the same security blanket. They are having the rug stripped out from under them.
It's a lot more shocking on the system than a replacing gravity with a difference concept.
You're skipping over the key point: if they showed evidence for it, then there'd be a means for rational disagreement.
In my experience no one has of yet provided 'evidence' contra gravity... and if one were to simply naysay the concept, I'd have a means of showing them the error of their ways....
"Hitler burned people like Anne Frank, for that we call him evil.
"God" burns Anne Frank eternally. For that, theists call him 'good.'
You're skipping over the key point: if they showed evidence for it, then there'd be a means for rational disagreement.
In my experience no one has of yet provided 'evidence' contra gravity... and if one were to simply naysay the concept, I'd have a means of showing them the error of their ways....
"Hitler burned people like Anne Frank, for that we call him evil.
"God" burns Anne Frank eternally. For that, theists call him 'good.'
Precisely.
If your claim has solid grounds, you want people to challenge it... it's like having a good car for sale, you want potential customers to drive it.
But if it's a lemon, the last thing you want is for them to get anywhere near the car.
"Hitler burned people like Anne Frank, for that we call him evil.
"God" burns Anne Frank eternally. For that, theists call him 'good.'
Todangst said it already, but you've missed the point of my reply. It's not that I'm mature enough to hold in my rage. It's that there is no rage. When someone says something that is no threat to my beliefs, there is nothing to cause me to get angry.
Where you might be getting angry responses confused is this: Theists make me very angry, but it's not because their arguments are a threat to my beliefs. It's because their politics, and their philosophy, and their culture is a direct and very real threat to my politics, philosophy and culture.
By the way, I maintain that people don't need god. They believe they need him, but this belief is as false as their belief in god.
The difference is that most six year olds I know would want to see the body so that they would know for sure.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
Now I'll find out [with posting this] if I was ever actually marked Theist. Wee.
{ You weren't, but you are now. Text removed due to this being FTA. Sorry! - edited by: Mr. Atheist }
- Mr. Atheist says, "Find faith in truth, not truth in faith"
- Leuthesius the Theist says, "I agree."
- Leuthesius the Theist also says, "A blind follower of a religion might as well be a blind follower of nothing."
I'm beginning to see religion as being very similiar to drugs and alcohol in some respects. Some people have no problem controling their usage to drugs, alcohol and religion. Many others can't control who is getting used by who.
One of the biggest obstacles people have with drug and alcohol addiction is their social network, sometimes including family. Walking away from something they suspect or know is harmful is nigh impossible because they have to leave everyone they know to get a clean start. How do you walk away from religion when your social network is weaved throughout by others you count as family and friends? Even if you are smart enough to see the truth of the Emperor's new clothes, how do you live with others that see the sparkling, shiny new threads?
I see the hostility as a perfectly natural response to knowledge that threatens to destroy what they believe is their life. Very sad, but very understandable.
Respectfully,
Lenny
"The righteous rise, With burning eyes, Of hatred and ill-will
Madmen fed on fear and lies, To beat and burn and kill"
Witch Hunt from the album Moving Pictures. Neal Pert, Rush
Yea, if anyone wants to challenge gravity (DONT TRY THIS AT HOME OR ANYWHERE FOR THAT MATTER) but if you really want to see the absurdity of believing in a god vs the fact of gravity, jump of a skyscraper with no aid whatsoever and pray to Thor or Isis or Vishnu or Jesus or Allah on the way down.
It is hard Tod to explain to the theist that we dont "believe" in gravity we know it exists. It is not something humans pray to. It is something they either use to their advantage or avoid the dangers of.
Of course you wouldnt become hostile to a person challenging gravity, because they wouldnt be challenging you, they would be road pizza.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
I once heard an ex-minister (now atheist) compare his past line of work to that of a drug dealer... convincing people their life is empty so that you can sell them your product.
They're stuck defending a position they've been burdened with since childhood, and the best argument most of them can come up with is that it can't be disproved; which is equivalent to the admission there's no proof. So it must be frustrating.
Irony: If I had not mentioned that I was a theist in that post, the point(s) I made would have become conversation.
Irony: The very idea of "Freethinkers" is that they listen to others freely, and are capable of discussion. Freely. Without reservations.
Irony: The contradiction that you would ignore and censor others based solely on the admittance of a belief in God.
Irony: The assumption is made that I am here to push my beliefs onto others.
The very markings of "Theist" or "Atheist" is akin to a Star of David stitched to an armsleeve in Nazi Germany. I'm sure Rook can even attest to that.
- Mr. Atheist says, "Find faith in truth, not truth in faith"
- Leuthesius the Theist says, "I agree."
- Leuthesius the Theist also says, "A blind follower of a religion might as well be a blind follower of nothing."
Here is why you got removed you can't even pay attention to what forum your posting in. Atheist only on this part of the forums. Plus you don't even know what Irony is. This part of the forum is for intellectuals because some of us don't want to waste our time reading your bullshit. Not all of us just some of us. Post in the proper forum.