from a theist friend, to RRS community
Offline i'm taking this seriously since i really think he's telling me the truth and not just making up excuses. he's not one to sidestep, but a life long friend of mine apparently really wanted to find out if there was anything to this atheism thing and well, he came here. i didnt ask exactly what he read, but he made a good point (imo). he got the feeling that just because he's a christian he cant be rational from this site... which obviously is pretty much what the RRS title kind of insinuates. i'm sure no one can disagree with that. but what he said was 'how effective do you think christians are that go around saying stuff like 'turn or burn'?' and well, he has a point, doesnt he? it'll be hard for some christians to take time to understand the arguments and substance of the arguments if just feel like they're being insulted.
what i pointed out too though, is that there's a huge christian apologetic base that is not better. i suggested he read 'i dont have enough faith to be an atheist' cuz that's the biggest and stupidest set of strawman i've ever read and well, it's easy to see that atheists are dipshits hard-core according to that book..
anyways, thouhgt i'd share that with you guys. not sure if anything can be done, but he made a good point.
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Well, I also see that point.
However, I think there is another perspective to view this from. No matter what website you go to, what book you read, what person you listen to and no matter how pleasant, diplomatic, or harsh they are, the audience needs to keep in mind that the truth of what is said ultimatley depends on rational argument.
The RRS argues that theism is irrational. Are they correct? Maybe, maybe not. The point is that a Christian (Moslem, Jew, Scientologist, etc) who comes to the site and feels insulted needs to either show why the RRS is wrong in saying theism is irrational or get used to being called irrational themselves. The truth as RRS sees it is not easy nor polite. But who said that the truth is supposed to be easy? So if someone feels insulted, then they might be too sensitive.
Perhaps it is possible to be both rational and theist, meaning that the RRS is incorrect in saying that theism is irrational. But until someone demonstrates that to be the case, it's an unsupported claim. Feeling insulted because someone calls your unsupported claim irrational is, well, silly at very least. IMHO, being insulted by the RRS is irrrational.
And we might catch more flies with honey, but isn't the worldview of, say Humanism, nice? The RRS is simply a tool to help people realize that they might be irrational. Once they accept that they can realize the good parts of lack of belief, if they so choose. The process in between theism and acceptance of atheism is often difficult, and that's something the theist will have to deal with.
Shaun
I'll fight for a person's right to speak so long as that person will, in return, fight to allow me to challenge their opinions and ridicule them as the content of their ideas merit.
that's what i told him to, but i can still see how the environment can turn people off.
and i also remember telling him, yea people are going to find these communities insulting anyways because it's critisizing what they hold dear.
Yes and no. I'm sure your friend is rational about many things in life, his theism is not one of them. Maybe he can find solace in the fact that even atheists who are rational about their lack of god belief are capable of being irrational in other areas, including me.
Extremely effective.
Nope, not on that note. Unless his point was defending our "call a spade a spade" tactics, and as we can see, he wasn't.
Keep in mind, part of the reason we do this is to help balance out the insanity of the religious right. They are so far out there, that a position to the far opposite side is needed to balance them out.
Agreed, see ShaunPhillys' answer here. And two more additional thoughts...
1. People who don't want their beliefs laughed at, shouldn't have such funny beliefs
2. We don't expect many theists to hang around and fight, but you can bet they will think about how many people think theism is irrational, they will dwell on it. And maybe at some point they'll find someone pleasant on a personal level to talk to, (you're a good example) and that pleasant person will help hammer the point home. However this pleasant person might not have convinced the person, had our "irrational" argumentation had never been made.
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thanks for the reply, sapient. i'm going to try to encourage him to come here as well. but...
lol @ that but i think that's the problem. i can understand how people who HAVE these beliefs find these are unfounded or mean.
Does he believe that a snake talked? Does he believe an all powerful being rested on the 7th day? Does he believe that an all knowing all powerful being needed to come down to Earth to sacrifice himself to himself so that others could escape the wrath of himself(hell)?
If yes to any of those, I hope he understands that I find his beliefs humorous.
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