why we fight

reason_passion
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why we fight

I posted this on my blog through myspace but thought to get some feedback from all of you. We have all talked about why we participate in discussions and why we stand up for rationality and ideas and I thought to address it again. This is largely due to an example told to me today about someone who left christianity not because he thought about it, but because he was to lazy to work it out and figured that a non-chalant acceptance of agnosticism would be ok, despite the fact that he doesn't know what that means.

Here is where american laziness concerning ideas is fully manifest. I wonder what would happen if everyone was this lazy concerning their belief systems? I'll tell you, nothing would be accomplished. Ideas are what drive us, they are how we view the world, how we interact with it. To not care at all, to view the acquisition of ideas in a haphazard way is to abrogate your right to complain about the world and, in the end, ignore the particularly human way of living.

But in fact, not everyone would behave this way, so what is left is a large group of people who don't care to take the time to study and are apathetic and those who do. Therefore, what ends up happening is that passion rules the day, not logical argumentation.

The effect of this is shown in the U.S. to perfection: the rise in laws being passed having creationism (despite its complete lack of scientific backing) taught alongside evolution in the classroom, faith-based charities getting federal funding and thus eroding the separation of church and state, children being raised in a cycle of hate like in godhatesfags.com, and the psychological abuse of women promoted by a religious heirarchical mentality.

Some might accuse me of being going to far in my criticism of ideas and in fact, I know of a few. When did criticism become an evil? When did blind acceptance of ideas become a moral good?

People need to wake up and start asking questions. Hundreds, if not thousands, are dying every day to promote their ideological stance. If more of us don't start asking questions and accepting the responsibility that being a thinking creature entails, we'll all end up at the mercy of those who did care and believe me, it won't be a good world to live in.

Every one of your relationships to man and to nature must be a definite expression of your real, individual life corresponding to the object of your will. -Erich Fromm


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I wrote an essay about how I

I wrote an essay about how I came to not believeing, in it I touched on this. However that wasn't the point of the essay so I didn't go into detail.

check it out in my blog (tell me if it don't work)


SilkyShrew
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reason_passion wrote:I

reason_passion wrote:
I posted this on my blog through myspace but thought to get some feedback from all of you. We have all talked about why we participate in discussions and why we stand up for rationality and ideas and I thought to address it again. This is largely due to an example told to me today about someone who left christianity not because he thought about it, but because he was to lazy to work it out and figured that a non-chalant acceptance of agnosticism would be ok, despite the fact that he doesn't know what that means.

Is it that they are truely lazy, or is it something that is just unimportant to them? There's a variety of things that I don't know about that I take an unknowing stance in regards to simply because I don't have the time to investigate everything and I deem those things unimportant to me. While I can discuss a variety of subjects, I can't discuss how to build a rocket engine, the chemical composition of plastic vampire teeth, or how to hunt bears. While these all may seem like trivial examples to you as compared to your interests in the freethought movment, they may not seem trivial to the person that you speak of. Hence, it may not be the case that the person is truely being lazy, they may just not value issues surrounding the existence of a deity.

Quote:
Here is where american laziness concerning ideas is fully manifest. I wonder what would happen if everyone was this lazy concerning their belief systems?

Clearly everyone is not like that - that's why we're here, isn't it?

Quote:
I'll tell you, nothing would be accomplished. Ideas are what drive us, they are how we view the world, how we interact with it. To not care at all, to view the acquisition of ideas in a haphazard way is to abrogate your right to complain about the world and, in the end, ignore the particularly human way of living.

However, you've lept from someone not worrying about one particular idea (the question of the existence of a deity) to people not worrying about all ideas.

Quote:
But in fact, not everyone would behave this way, so what is left is a large group of people who don't care to take the time to study and are apathetic and those who do. Therefore, what ends up happening is that passion rules the day, not logical argumentation.

Which, would have ment we never would have gotten into the stone age, much less past it. Clearly not everyone thinks this way, and I think it would be somewhat alarmist to worry about everyone thinking this way. Obviously we don't really think everyone is closed to investigating things and asking questions, otherwise the Rational Responders et. al. would be effectively wasting a lot of time - but we know that they really aren't, because we've already witnessed some learing experiences from people, and have seen the results of what they do to at least some extent.

Quote:
The effect of this is shown in the U.S. to perfection: the rise in laws being passed having creationism (despite its complete lack of scientific backing) taught alongside evolution in the classroom, faith-based charities getting federal funding and thus eroding the separation of church and state, children being raised in a cycle of hate like in godhatesfags.com, and the psychological abuse of women promoted by a religious heirarchical mentality.

This is the effect of some people who don't question certain things, not all people not questioning. In fact, many of the people who fuel these things are rather brainwashed, and much of it has to do with their environment and what reinforces them. Most creationists, for example, spend comparably more time with other creationists, or focusing on creationism in some manner than they spend considering evolutionary theory. They have more invested in their lives with creationism than they do with evolutionary theory. The same thing goes for the godhatesfags people and people stuck in patriarchal societies. When most of what you know and are familiar with IS these things, then that is what you often live. If tomorrow, say, Kent Hovind suddenly realized how very wrong he was, but was able to consider what it would do to his income, his family, and how his immediate peers would view him, what do you think he would see his options as? He would likely realize that his income would be gone right along with many of his friends and it would be a big disruption in his family. Would he be willing to take such a large risk?

So, it isn't just not questioning that keeps them there - they actually have much at stake, and that keeps them there as well.

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Some might accuse me of being going to far in my criticism of ideas and in fact, I know of a few. When did criticism become an evil? When did blind acceptance of ideas become a moral good?

Is it really that criticism is seen as evil? My guess is that it isn't the criticism is evil, it is that it is threatening. If I knocked on your door, took out the agreement that says that you are allowed to live there (rental document, deed, whatever) and said that the signatures on it must have been forged and could not belong to those who claim them and as a result, you must be evicted; despite you knowing that they belong to those individuals, would that not seem threatening to you? Now, granted you would have more reason to believe in the documents than a theist does in their religion, but the important thing is they don't perceive it that way. They often see their livelihood depending on their religious beliefs. So in trying to help others see reason and rationality, we are doing more than just grappling with their inability to see our points, we are also fighting with how our interactions and what we are saying to them affect their entire lives. Now that is a particularly large barrier, isn't it?

The blind acceptance of ideas is not necesarily a moral good, either. Instead, evolutionarily speaking, it is an advantageous trait. Conforming to a group allows us to breed more successfully, and the passing on of information helps us have advantages in survival. Say we look to hunting and gathering groups and examine the passing of information. Two economically related but separate groups (say they participate in trade agreements) are hunting the same pack of animals. One group, after having acquired meat, is passing the other who is going out for a hunt. The first group says that the pack of animals that they need is to the northwest, a mile or so away - which has more of an evolutionary advantage in this case, questioning that statement, or going to the northwest?

Now we can clearly see the advantages of questioning particular things, but that doesn't mean that years of evolutionary history that has selected in favor of acceptance of information is going to be readily gotten rid of.

Quote:
People need to wake up and start asking questions. Hundreds, if not thousands, are dying every day to promote their ideological stance. If more of us don't start asking questions and accepting the responsibility that being a thinking creature entails, we'll all end up at the mercy of those who did care and believe me, it won't be a good world to live in.

It seems to me that people have already started asking questions and that at this point, it is more of a matter of helping others see things the way that we do.


applesforadam
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I have a drunken blog post

I have a drunken blog post called "social apathy and my voice" where I rant for a bit about a conversation with someone who took this apathetic approach. Most of the people I talk to seem to be taking this route of agnostic apathy and blind tolerance. I think this is just the way the system is designed right now, there are seemingly more important things to discuss than religion. Ironically, however, the same people who don't care to discuss religion don't really care to discuss any of the seemingly more important things either. Ideas and thought have been replaced with the OC and elimidate, and we find ourselves immersed in a culture full of people who care more about who got voted off survivor last night than how many people are voted out of basic human rights by religious thought. It's depressing and I found myself watching Fight Club yesterday, daydreaming about the day when someone actually puts this world into a position to have to confront basic ideas again. Having a Tyler Durden around would sure solve a lot of problems.

"It's not so much staying alive. It's staying human that's important." - 1984
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I don't have druken rants

I don't have druken rants yet, but I haven't gotten drunk so give me a few years. :: Is young ::


reason_passion
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appreciation

silkyshrew wrote:
it isn't just not questioning that keeps them there - they actually have much at stake, and that keeps them there as well.

You are absolutely right and I thank you for the verbal tongue lashing for writing something so simple. I, like most, definitely get caught up in the emotion of the moment and simply write something before reason takes hold and asks for clarity. I did make my blog more clear in response to what you wrote.

I think my general criticism has to do with society in general which has degenerated to, as another said, "being more interested in who got voted off the island" than on the ideological struggles people go through. In additon, there are those people in particular who are perfectly capable of thinking and simply choose not to when faced with it. There is a choice made when the news is refused to be looked at or in how a person spends their free time, at least for those who have free time.

Laziness is an apt description for those who spend day after day getting drunk and playing video games and never once take a moment to read the news and see there is a whole world out there that isn't about them.

Every one of your relationships to man and to nature must be a definite expression of your real, individual life corresponding to the object of your will. -Erich Fromm


SilkyShrew
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Thanks for the compliments

Thanks for the compliments and response. Indeed, it is frusterating when other people don't see the same value in particular things that we do. I do hope that my post wasn't terribly abraisive. Some people just don't want to know more about the world around them - if they're not interfering with us, though, I am content to just let those people be.