I'm a little confused that a morning after pill would happily be prescribed for a married woman, but not an unmarried woman. It's OK not to want more kids if you're married?

Sad how men and religion have such control over women's bodies.

You have to wonder how it would work out if every woman going into an abortion clinic told a protester, "I will not give birth to a child that will be unloved and possibly end up in foster care. However, I will give birth to this child, but YOU have to raise it, change its diapers, clothe it, feed it, take it to tee ball, send it to college and pay for a wedding." How many protesters would start taking personal responsibility for these unwanted babies?

Wouldn't be better if they just had everything that doesn't kill them, a lot of somethings that are itchy

That or just makes their shit fall off }

EDIT IN AFTER READING SILKY'S POST: You seem to be very "angrey" at something Silky. Eye-wink Sticking out tongue

I have to wonder with respect to Dawkins’ findings and the various polls, how many atheists/agnostics do not favor abortion? The abortion issue shouldn’t be a religious issue.

I also have to wonder if, in theory, abortion is contrary to natural selection?

Dawkins continually points out how simple, natural and elegant natural selection is. I really only know of one simple and natural way to keep the selfish genes progressing forward. And how would we know when the next Einstein will appear?

'm sure you meant 120 hours.

Silkyshrew, I agree with mostly everything you said. Your posts are always so calm and well thought out.. Truly a rational respoder for SURE!

I'll need to think about abortion as natural selection. Do you mean this in a social evolution sense...for the good and fitness of the current living selfish genes? Tell me what you mean. I'm still trying to grasp natural selection.

The summer sunshine danced over the pond in time with music of the noises of all the animals that inhabited it and its lush surroundings. Such a fine day encases many a sign of how the world moves and operates based on simple principles that we can learn through the simplest and most delightful observations. Tiny birds flit about on sleek wings that serve to carry them away from predators that may taunt and injure them and the bird's wings take them to each little grain of corn or tiny seed that they can spy with their sharp eyes; the trees grow tall and full, spreading their branches wide so that the leaves can soak up the sun which helps them to utilize the nutrients that their roots find in the ground, and the sharp and attentive eyes of the cat watched rabbits play to see if they would come close enough for him to pounce and have a tender treat for the evening. The other animals, of course, instinctively knew to keep their distance from the cat, and the cat was satiated enough by the food that was given him from the humans that he did not stray from his perch to chase the birds or the rabbits.

In the thick of some cattails stretched out high above the pond, a fair distance from the cat, the farmhouse where its owner lived, and under the shelter of some trees there was a duck sitting quietly on her nest simply waiting for her small clutch of eggs to hatch. It seems like a duck would get weary of such a task, sitting for so long and not being able to leave the nest for long without putting the eggs at risk of some danger, but through the workings of nature, through those principles within which the world seems to work, the duck does not worry and rarely leaves her nest at this time. Even the lack of interaction from other animals does not draw her out and away from her task, for one of the mother duck's most innate drives is to guard, protect and hatch the small clutch of eggs.

Other ducks swam about the pond, dipped their heads down below the surface in search of food, and waddled about the banks with their heads up high in a manner that we humans might deem to be a look of self-importance. Not a single one, though approached the nesting mother duck. At length, long after you or I would have given up this seemingly trivial position, the duck began to shift her body a little as the eggs began to crack. She lifted her feathery abdomen from the eggs and watched as each one cracked slowly open and tiny little heads began emerging saying, "peep, peep, peep" while the attentive mother softly replied, "quack."

The little ducklings each quacked as well as their young little beaks and necks let them as they were fresh from their eggs and they looked about the nest. As little humans grow and develop, we learn to say things like, "what a big world!" And "all these things seem so mysterious to me!" But to tiny little ducklings such questions never arise, they simply follow their mother about instinctively and learn to eat and survive the way that she does and the way that their little fuzzy bodies will let them. However, the world is much bigger to the duckling than the tiny little egg that they just came from, so there certainly is a few minor observations that they must make once escaping those shells! So that is what the tiny little ducklings did. The mother duck, already inclined to teach her little ducklings about the pond and where to find food, looked about the broken shells in her nest and didn't fail to notice that there was still one very large egg remaining that hadn't hatched, but was still quite warm from the body inside. The duck, still motivated to do as was natural to her, promptly sat back down on the nest, the large egg, and arranged herself so that the little ducklings could be nestled snuggly underneath her feathery bottom.

Ducks are not rather picky creatures about their young, and, being unable to communicate like human critters can, they do not make comments like, "my, I have the loveliest brood of ducklings on the pond," doting as a human mother might over her children. And although human children, beautiful as they are, are not like ducklings, one could say that these ducklings all really were particularly pretty as ducklings would come. Without the need and ability to make declarations of her pretty little brood, the mother duck was attentive in keeping them warm along with the large egg and giving them the occasional bite of food that she obtained from nearby her nest.

It seems such an odd thing that one would find the eggs of particular types of birds, even ducks, to be of very different sizes, but it just so happens that sometimes the accidental adoption of a foreign egg is not unlikely, even in the world of ducks. An observer, then, might find themselves suddenly guessing as to the nature of the large egg that the mother duck continues to sit on. Is it a turkey? How would a turkey survive under the care of a water-bound bird? What other birds might be large and seemingly more cumbersome than the tiny creatures that had just hatched? The mother duck did not wonder these things, but simply continued to wait for the egg to hatch, feeding her hatched brood with what lay close by the nest.

Finally, the egg broke, and a young peeping fuzzy creature crept out. It was larger than the other little birds, and some may even say it was decidedly uglier. The duck, though, paid no notice, for this duckling was similar enough in shape and behavior to the others that the duck could not be conscious of its difference on any great levels. One thing seemed likely - this bird was not a turkey, its feet were webbed like those of the others.

The next day the weather was just as lovely as on the previous days and the sun was warm and there was a very slight, but comforting breeze. The mother duck, with only slightly different motivations than before, but motivations still influential enough to alter what she did only slightly, took her little family down to the water of the pond. Each little bird, automatically, and without an utterance of protest, or deviating from the wake of their mother simply followed along behind her. Once they reached the pond, the mother duck jumped right in and swam just a short distance from the bank, then turned and watched as each of the young followed along behind her, right into the water. Each little duckling quacked and swam around in the water, even the ugly duckling (which, we can be absolutely certain at this point, is NOT a turkey).

The mother duck, naturally tending to the duties that mother ducks tend to, led her little brood around the pond and the farmyard, seemingly showing them each little aspect with the exception of the area too close to the lazy cat, who quickly caused a disturbance by rushing at a bucket that he saw movement in, knocking it over, and stealing one of the fish before the farmer could stop him. With great noise, the farmer restored the bucket to its upright position, replaced the fish and filled it half-way again with water to sustain the fish until he could properly prepare them for whatever farmers do with buckets of fish.

The mother duck made no observation of the scene other than to flee with her ducklings (who were also startled) far away from the ruckus caused by the cat. The ducklings soon followed their mother around more parts of the farmyard where they encountered other animals, even a few ducks. The ducks passed with seeming recognition and did not seem to notice that one of the ducklings was quite a bit larger and uglier than all the other little ducklings. Apparently this little bird is only ugly to particular observers, and must not be ugly to the mother ... for ... whatever reason.

Perching themselves near some other ducks, and sitting in their self-important fashions, they watched the happenings around the pond with whatever limited interest a duck can have in such things. Unlike human children, who sometimes mock each other and take offense at the observation of what faults they may or may not have, a duckling pays no mind to if it is ugly or not. Each creature does that which is natural to it, and to a duck it is sitting around and watching the happenings of the pond that come natural to it. Thus, the ugly duckling, in the fortunate state of not being hatched into a human child, did not suffer the knowledge of his unappealing, large and abnormal (for a duckling) appearance.

As time passed, though, the differences of the ugly duckling became more apparent, and his behavior and that of the other ducklings were enough different that the mother duck, doing again what came natural, would no longer allow him into her nest, to swim with her in the pond, or to sit with the other ducks as they sat in their self-important positions watching the happenings of the pond. The ugly duckling was suddenly on his own. So he flew away and arrived at a large moor, where he spent the night and encountered more ducks in the morning. These ducks seemed as disinterested in him as his own mother.

However, there were a couple goslings nearby who didn't seem to mind the company of the ugly duckling and they allowed him to follow them around the moor. They soon began to take off, though, and he was about to follow them, but two loud noises pierced the air, BANG! And the goslings fell from their flight as the other geese on the moor suddenly filled the air while the little duckling survived by staying hidden in the grass, safe on the ground and away from the main part of the moor. Dogs ran about plucking limp geese from the ground and gunsmoke filled the air, but still the little duckling stayed hidden from sight, and away from the dogs and guns. Finally the moor got quiet, and so in the stillness that followed that evening, the duckling fled the moor and found a tiny house that was in great disrepair. A storm formed in the sky above him and beat down around him, but the duckling could go no farther and since the door to the little house was open, the duck sought shelter inside.

In this cottage there lived a woman, and two cats, one of which was prone to be frightened of everything. The woman, often making the habit of calling herself a 'shrew' (though she didn't look much like a rodent of any type) - not out of a poor temperment, but more because she liked the sound of it (she was not an angry person in the least) - was fond of nature and its quirky animals. The older cat, a sleek and mischievous creature, was called "Onyx" by the shrew due to the gem-like quality of her fur. The scardy cat, called "Fizgig" was simply that, a skiddish little puffy black thing that was prone to hiding in odd places.

On the morning that the little duck was discovered in the house, the Shrew awoke with a start, exclaiming, "What the hell was that!?!?" And she looked around to try and figure it out. Not knowing much about the difference between a duckling and any other bird baby (other than maybe the shape of a beak or foot or something), the shrew simply assumed that she had encountered a fat duck, and worried that it might be more difficult to train it to the litter box than the two cats were. "How very cool!" She exclaimed, "I wonder how long it takes for a duck to start laying eggs, maybe the internet has some information." So, she let the duck stay in the house and tried, through much planning and conditioning, to train the duck to use the litter box. Which was a task, of course, that she was somewhat successful at doing.

But cats being, as cats often seem to be, the rulers of any house in which they possess, the two cats in Shrew's house were not fond of the duckling and were prone to hissing at it, and looking at it with great hunger (forcing the shrew to hide the duck in her bedroom closet in the evenings when she had to sleep, and watching the cats closely in the daytime, lest she find nothing but a bloody feather should she not take great care). And the duck, being as ducks are, often sought to swim in the water that would form in the bottom of the shower (resulting in a few embarassing situations for the Shrew), in the sink, and sometimes in the toilet (which led to the practice of the Shrew trying to leave the top down all the time).

Though the Shrew was fond of all animals, and had perhaps an overly-soft heart in regards to them, the presence of the duckling became too much trouble for even her to tolerate. So the last time the duckling was found to have managed to lift the lid of the toilet enough to get inside, but accidentally trapping himself there, the Shrew had to finally give the whole matter up. "You are a quirky animal, indeed; my cats want to eat you; I'm too busy to always keep an eye on you; and the cat litter never clumps right when you use the box! I think you are far better off outside anyway!" So she put the duckling back outside.

The duckling found a part of a small stream where the water was deeper and moved just a little slower, but few other animals were around and none of them that were paid much attention to him. Autumn had come and the world outside was somewhat different than when the duckling had hatched. Leaves dropped from their branches and the air felt cold and damp.

Then one day, as the sun was sinking into the west, some birds flew down out of the sky. They were very graceful and pretty with white feathers and broad, strong wings. These were swans - strong, graceful, and very well-traveled birds with webbed feet like a duck, but longer legs and necks and fuller bodies. They were lovely birds and one could imagine that an ugly duckling such as our hero, were he human, would have longed to be just such a creature. But these swans, they flew away on their strong wings, as swans naturally do, towards warmer regions while the ugly duckling stayed in his stream and swam around, using his motion to stay warm as he swam until he was cold, tired and weak and the stream froze around his legs.

Early in the morning, though, a human peasant came by with long hair and playing a guitar who carefully devised a plan to use the loud squeal of his guitar to find the resonance factor of the ice and break it to pieces! Then he brought the duck home to his apartment in the city, where he lived with a cat. The warmth of the apartment was good for the duck, and he quickly was revived. However, the cat, reacting with curiousity and playfulness, as cats sometimes do, went to play with the duck, and the duck, very much afraid that yet another cat wanted to eat him he flew up onto the counter top and knocked over a plate of spaghetti, a pan of freshly warmed ground boca burger, and some fresh parmesean cheese. The house was a mess and the nice man was frustrated. The cat sat down and watched as if he were an innocent bystander and the duck escaped out of the window and hid in a nearby snow-covered tree (which is somewhat precarious and difficult for something with webbed feet).

Were the duck human, he would likely declare his winter something that he underwent with great difficulty. But, being a duck (and an ugly one at that), such considerations did not enter into his brain as he simply went about searching for food in an ever-hungry and cold state of being.

On day, the duck ultimately ended up laying again near a pond amongst some cattails. The air had warmed up and the sun was shining. Twitters and chirps of other birds of various kinds could be heard around him and one could tell that spring had finally arrived. Over the winter, despite the consistent hunger, the bird's wings had grown strong and he flapped them against his sides on occasion (which helped to keep them that way) and wandering around with seemingly some focus in direction finally led him to a nice little garden on the edge of the pond. In the garden there were some very pretty swans, just as lovely as the ones that had been encountered the previous fall. Confident in his manner, and unable to be aware of the significance of their beauty as compared to the state of ugliness others might have seen in him in the past, the bird flew out towards the swans into the water, and a couple of them swam out close by him.

At that moment, his grouping with the swans created a striking image. For over the hard winter he developed and changed. His feathers became a gleeming white, his wings became strong and graceful, and his reflection in the water looked just like the magnificant reflections of the lovely swans at his sides. The ugly grey feathers that once kept him warm had been replaced by ones better suited to a large bird like him that could fly long distances and didn't need to endure terribly cold weather. Now this bird, having never known of his ugliness, nor could he ever be aware of his beauty, the bird that seemed to have just enough advantage to survive through the harshness of nature, could be seen to have yet another advantage. For this pretty bird is revered as elegant and valuable to the humans around him and those humans, child (ugly and pretty alike), or adult (ugly and pretty alike) bring him food so that he can grow fat (and also so that the fish and wildlife people from the government can complain that they must be careful or he won't be able to fly is fat carcass to warmer climates later on).

This, dear friends, is evidence of advantages that are so often overlooked. Yet, in the funny way that the world moves and operates on observable factors, this bird was able to survive. Now, many things that helped him survive, such as the strength that carried him through the winter, and even odd factors like the man rescuing him from the frozen water ... these all worked to the advantage of the duck ... er ... swan so that he could now do what every creature is driven to do. He can reproduce!

Don't you think in terms of probablilities that it is more likely that a brilliant mind will show up again (even one that is mildly inferior to the likes of Einstein) than that life itself will appear on some other planet in a multiverse? Yet Dawkins seems to think it likely that more life exists "out there".

According to Wikipedia, 46 million cases of abortion happen globally every year. Could this be 46 million cases of natural selection interrupted?

Natural Selection, Artificial Selection, or do they apply to us!Anymore that is! I think ideas best describe what forces are most a work in modern human evolution. Dr. Stephen Gould's Puntuated Equalibrium (human's are going through a period were we are so good at manipulating our environment, that there are no environmental pressures driving our evolution). And Howard Bloom's Lucifier Principle (which states that at some point in the recent past, human's evolved past being tribal to becoming super-tribal. that our genes gave way to the memes. ideologies that we can spread through culture. that's all we have for now and until the environment changes us).