Math teacher defends me in the refusal to say "Under God"
Offline Today, while in math class, we were saying the pledge of allegiance as it was the beginning of the day. So I get up as I normally do to say it, you know, without the under god part. I do and when I am finished a girl asks me "Why didn't you say under god?" and I answer, "Because I don't feel it should be in the school systems."... Then she went, "Oh! Are you one of those atheists?" and I said, "Yes, I am." Then rudely enough she was able to go on and say "Well, I have a problem with that!" To make a long story short, we had a bunch of mormons and christians walling in on me to get me to explain myself, not wanting to offend anyone i said "I don't know if you guys are ready to have this conversation with me right now." Eventually I got into debating with them for around 45 minutes which made half of the class happy because my math teacher (who i just discovered today was a HARDCORE atheist) was defending my points and beliefs. Naturally, since they are so close minded they were saying retarded bullshit like "Have faith and you'll hear him." and i said "Ok, maybe I will." The group of kids that i was debating with agreed to continue tomorrow, so they could get their bible verses... etc.
I'm going to get them back by bringing them ALL of the contradictions and using logic. Could you guys please help me out here?
-Joe
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For the arguments on god I think you should have it cover if you've done your research already.
As for Under God look out for the argument of history (its our past or we were founded as a christian nation) and the argument of numbers. I think there are a few articles floating around here. With logic I think you could deal with most of there arguments, but if they talk about history you'll need to research.
For bible stuff it would be hard to fight them on it if you haven't studied it. RRS and IG has some good points/arguments. Maybe look around the sites to refresh your memory.
On another note I think you should be careful about your teacher getting involved as, fair or not, it might hurt their career.
The teacher became involved on his own free will.
Yeah I thought that is what you where saying and all, but I know a lot of people would freak out if a teacher was defending an atheist student and not just saying, "lets all get along". I personally wouldn't want one of my teachers getting involved just because they are risking something by doing it. I would talk to them privately about that aspect of it just in case.
Lucky you. I didn't have a single non-religious teacher throughout my schooling.
I say patience. Let them think that they've made their full point before you say a word. If you jump on their first fuck-up then you won't be giving them enough time to argue themselves right out of it.
Avoid the questioning after their assertions. Use evidence of your own to back up the contradictory point.
If you follow a true debate format (pro, con, con, pro) then their final rebuttal will be your answer as to whether or not they will ever grasp what was said.
Be prepared with examples when one of the jesus-freak assholes gives you the 'morality from god' crap. Make sure that they get that the 'golden rule' has existed far longer than any bible of any religion.
Since you have the mormons in there, I recommend SilkyShrew for dealing with their bag of obnoxiousness.
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I know this is kind of an old thread, but here's some good ammo for the "We are a Christian Nation" argument:
"The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion."
--From Article 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli, 1797, which was ratified by Congress and signed into law by President Adams
"Goddamnit, John, the Republicans are selling their soul to win elections. Mark my word, if and when these preachers get control of the party, and they're sure trying to do so, it's going to be a terrible damn problem. Frankly, these people frighten me. Politics and governing demand compromise. The government won't work without it. But these Christians believe they are acting in the name of God, so they can't and won't compromise. I know, I've tried to deal with them."
-- Barry Goldwater
You could also point out that many of the founding fathers were NOT Christian, including Thomas Jefferson. Many of the fathers who are cited as Christian were only Christian in the cultural sense. One only need read their journals to discover this. In any case, they went out of their way to create a government that separates church and state.
To put a final touch on the argument, tell them you'll be happy to entertain their argument that America is a Christian nation if they will kindly show you the quote from the Constitution that verifies their position, but until they can do that, they shouldn't bother you with such tripe. You can point out that just because a lot of Americans mistakenly believe it, it doesn't make it true.
(As a side note, referring to the year of the signing as "the year of our Lord, such and such" doesn't count anymore than saying 2006 AD makes one a Christian. It was just the standard practice in legal documents.)
Anyway, just do some reading about the founding fathers. It's not hard to disprove the Christian Nation argument.
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Yeah that should be like one of the 3 foot nails in the coffin...