A response to ALMALHAMAH
Offline This was taken from the Dawkins page.
I decided to start a new thread.
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you have the ability to see right from wrong, you choose what you will, but everything you do is predestined for you before even you are born.
That's another contradiction. If everything is predestined, then there cannot be free will. The concepts are mutually exclusive.
Here's an example: You want to go to mars, but Mars is too hot for you to survive there. you have the free WILL TO CHOSE to go to mars, but because God predestined Mars as unsuitible for life, you CANNOT GO THERE unless you want to perish. Hence you have free will and you are restricted by the will of Allah.
It seems you want to pull off the argument that since everything is predetermined for you, you have no free will,
Pull off the argument?! There's no need to argue this at all. Predestination is the opposite of freedom of choice, by definition.If something is predestined, then you have no choice in the matter.
The concepts are contradictory.
Then that means you have no free will, which you are decieving yourself into thinking.
hence you will use that as an excuse to commit sin and mischief.
No. Again, you are very, very, very confused. This has nothing to do with me,. The point of the argument is to demonstrate that your claim is contradictory. It has nothing to do with my beliefs.I have no goal here, other than to demonstrate that your claims are contradictory.
You have a definite goal to prove God does not exist, in which you cannot prove your point.
Quote:Aren't you just a humble servant to Allah, just as your women ought to be servants for you? If so, then why aren't you created to just service allah, without any free will?Quote:
Thats what the whole point is buddy:
No kidding. And yet you can't see the problem.
Wow is this what you do? Take parts out and take them out of context? you should be a FOX News editor. really.
Quran 51:56
{ And I (Allâh) created not the jinns and humans except they should worship Me (Alone) }you don't think you have free will, then where is the gun to your head forcing you to worship God? Can i see where is the force?
You are very, very, very lost.I'm not arguing that there is free will, or there isn't free will.
I'm showing you that your own argument is contradictory. You argue that you need free will, yet you also argue that your god creates beings without free will. Then you argue that every thing is predestined, but that there is still free will!
So you not only contradict yourself, you contradict your contradictions!
No you want to make it seem as a contradiction but it is a contradistinction.
Quran 2:256
{ There is no compulsion in religion.
Yet your 'allah' creates Houri's without free will, and compels them to serve men.
This shows how desperate you are to prove Islam wrong and your blindness to even understand quotes.
there is no compulsion in RELIGION
did you see the key word religion? or did you miss it.
i will try to pronounce it again so you will understand: re-li-gion
as in to worship a being.
The houris are not forced to worship Allah, so your argument bears no weight
Of course, you can say that they are not really 'women' but if that is the case, then how can we call them 'virgins'... virgins refers to women... are these 'women' actually robots?
they are not robots.
What pleasure can a man have from a robot?
plenty, havent you seen people buy all kinds of sex toys?
It seems that you have no choice but to admit that these 'women' must be women....
So you are stuck with the fact that your allah can make women without free will.
No that is your interpretation of it, and i will say it is a wrong one.
The Future of the World and the United States can be summed up in one verse:
Quran 61:9
{ He it is Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islâmic Monotheism) to make it victorious over all (other) religio
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Offline I don't think they exist, alma. I'm not defending any imaginary women. We've explained this.
you seem to be defending their right for free will and complaining that they are slaves when in reality you don't believe they exist.
Again, for the hundreth time, we don't need for the 'virgins' to be real to discuss the moral implications of the idea.
Can you possibly work this out?
Stop quoting from 10 posts ago.
Then start figuring it out! 
Seventy Two Virgins awarded to believers = NOT REAL
Sexist implications of "awarding" female slaves to believers = REAL
Man, do you not know what a hypothetical question is? Noone's fighting for their rights! *imagines people picketing mosques holding signs saying 'Free the Virgins!'" 
He created you with free will to either do good or bad. You either worship him or live a life of falsehood and temporary enjoyment.
That's a little black and white, don't you think? To us, you're the one living the life of falsehood. 
It seems that you have no choice but to admit that these 'women' must be women....
Okay, then, so they are not robots, they are women. So awarding a woman as a slave to a man isn't sexist? Please explain how.
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Offline Quote:
you have the ability to see right from wrong, you choose what you will, but everything you do is predestined for you before even you are born.
Quote:That's another contradiction. If everything is predestined, then there cannot be free will. The concepts are mutually exclusive.Here's an example: You want to go to mars, but Mars is too hot for you to survive there. you have the free WILL TO CHOSE to go to mars, but because God predestined Mars as unsuitible for life, you CANNOT GO THERE unless you want to perish. Hence you have free will and you are restricted by the will of Allah.
Your knowledge of logic is as developed as your knowledge of astronomy. If you don't know what you are talking about it's better to remain silent on the subject than display your ignorance.
It is not too hot on Mars for survival. Mars is farther away from the sun than the Earth. The temperature range on Mrs is -225F at the poles and 81F near the equator. There may currently be no life on Mars but this says nothing about a god. The Earth's moon is inhospitabile to life, yet men have spent some time there. It is likely that in the future, especially if water can be found there, a permanent base will be established on the moon. Where are Allah's restrictions now? They don't exist except in the mind of the believer.
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful. - Seneca
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Offline Notice how bugged out Almalhamah's eyes are?
Crazy!
Know what's wrong with seriously religious people?
They never smile. Point to one of them having fun, and I will show you one trying to sell you something.
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Offline Notice how bugged out Almalhamah's eyes are?
Crazy!
Know what's wrong with seriously religious people?
They never smile. Point to one of them having fun, and I will show you one trying to sell you something.
Hey, personal attacks aren't nice. He's braver than I am, putting a pic up here...... 
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Offline Notice how bugged out Almalhamah's eyes are?
Crazy!
Know what's wrong with seriously religious people?
They never smile. Point to one of them having fun, and I will show you one trying to sell you something.
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Offline Notice how bugged out Almalhamah's eyes are?
Crazy!
Know what's wrong with seriously religious people?
They never smile. Point to one of them having fun, and I will show you one trying to sell you something.
Hey, personal attacks aren't nice. He's braver than I am, putting up a pic here.
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Offline Notice how bugged out Almalhamah's eyes are?
Crazy!
Know what's wrong with seriously religious people?
They never smile. Point to one of them having fun, and I will show you one trying to sell you something.
Hey, personal attacks aren't cool. He's braver than I am, putting up a pic here.
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Offline Your knowledge of logic is as developed as your knowledge of astronomy. If you don't know what you are talking about it's better to remain silent on the subject than display your ignorance."
sorry i meant venus.
The Future of the World and the United States can be summed up in one verse:
Quran 61:9
{ He it is Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islâmic Monotheism) to make it victorious over all (other) religio
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Offline Where are Allah's restrictions now? They don't exist except in the mind of the believer.
Id like to see you live on venus or Mars.
The Future of the World and the United States can be summed up in one verse:
Quran 61:9
{ He it is Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islâmic Monotheism) to make it victorious over all (other) religio
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Offline I'm not even sure why the issue of rape came up, and have not read the enite thread since I last interjected, but I'm fairly certain the story of Lot and his daugthers is told in the Koran as well as the Bible - and if that does not endorse rape, I don't know what does.
And to be truthful, whether the Koran advocates rape or not is beside the point that the Koran advocates and is being used to advocate even more horrible things than violating a woman. Most holy books are, the Islamic holy book is no exception.
I fail to see what validity has for either side when discussing whether or not Allah exists. It is ample evidence against God's character AFTER we establish said god's existence - till then it's simply ancient literature.
I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world. - Richard Dawkins
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Hey, personal attacks aren't nice. He's braver than I am, putting up a pic here.
Hey, defending his archaic, woman-hating, America-bashing, paranoid religious flummery isn't nice.
And his eyes are bugged out. He needs vitamin A.
Note his "I wear a headdress so I think I am a deeply meaningful bad-ass" look. Come off it, this is not the seventh century.
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Offline I'm not even sure why the issue of rape came up, and have not read the enite thread since I last interjected, but I'm fairly certain the story of Lot and his daugthers is told in the Koran as well as the Bible - and if that does not endorse rape, I don't know what does.
The Old testament clearly condones rape in some contexts:
Gen 19:1 The two angels came to Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gateway of Sodom. When Lot saw them, he rose to meet them, and bowed down with his face to the ground. 2 He said, "Please, my lords, turn aside to your servant's house and spend the night, and wash your feet; then you can rise early and go on your way." They said, "No; we will spend the night in the square." 3 But he urged them strongly; so they turned aside to him and entered his house; and he made them a feast, and baked unleavened bread, and they ate. 4 But before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, both young and old, all the people to the last man, surrounded the house; 5 and they called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us, so that we may know them." 6 Lot went out of the door to the men, shut the door after him, 7 and said, "I beg you, my brothers, do not act so wickedly. 8 Look, I have two daughters who have not known a man; let me bring them out to you, and do to them as you please; only do nothing to these men, for they have come under the shelter of my roof."
The men of Sodom were going to gang rape two angels, but Lot offered his two virgin daughters to the men in order to save the angels. Yet 2 Peter 2:7 says that Lot was "righteous" when Yahweh saved him from the destruction of Sodom:
2Pe 2:7 and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man greatly distressed by the licentiousness of the lawless
Therefore, according to the Bible, Lot was "righteous" when he offered his daughters to be gang raped, and thus the Bible permits rape in certain contexts.
'God' also supports rape of one's enemies, here:
(Deuteronomy 20:10-14)
20:10 When thou comest nigh unto a city to fight against it, then proclaim peace unto it. (20:10-11)
20:11 And it shall be, if it make thee answer of peace, and open unto thee, then it shall be, that all the people that is found therein shall be tributaries unto thee, and they shall serve thee.
20:12 And if it will make no peace with thee, but will make war against thee, then thou shalt besiege it:
20:13 And when the LORD thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword:
20:14 But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the LORD thy God hath given thee.
"Hitler burned people like Anne Frank, for that we call him evil.
"God" burns Anne Frank eternally. For that, theists call him 'good.'
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you have the ability to see right from wrong, you choose what you will, but everything you do is predestined for you before even you are born.
That's another contradiction. If everything is predestined, then there cannot be free will. The concepts are mutually exclusive.
Here's an example: You want to go to mars, but Mars is too hot for you to survive there. you have the free WILL TO CHOSE to go to mars, but because God predestined Mars as unsuitible for life, you CANNOT GO THERE unless you want to perish.
Sorry, but that's not an example of the compatibility predestination and free will. Free will has to do with human choice.
In order to argue that free will and predestination are compatible, you'd have to demonstrate how human behavior can be both determined, and free.
Here is the problem for you: If there is a 'god' that predestines the universe, then there can't be free will, because this predestination would also include predestination of human behavior. The two concepts are mutually exclusive. Predestination obviates free will.
Quote:Aren't you just a humble servant to Allah, just as your women ought to be servants for you? If so, then why aren't you created to just service allah, without any free will?Quote:
Thats what the whole point is buddy:
No kidding. And yet you can't see the problem.
Wow is this what you do? Take parts out and take them out of context?
You haven't demonstrated that anything is taken out of context.
You were asked why you needed free will, seeing as your allah makes houris without free will.
Quran 2:256
{ There is no compulsion in religion.
Yet your 'allah' creates Houri's without free will, and compels them to serve men.
This shows how desperate you are to prove Islam wrong and your blindness to even understand quotes.there is no compulsion in RELIGION
did you see the key word religion? or did you miss it.
i will try to pronounce it again so you will understand: re-li-gion
as in to worship a being.
The houris are not forced to worship Allah, so your argument bears no weight
It's funny watching you go on like that, only to end up wrong.
Are you saying that they don't worship allah?
No, I don't think you are. I bet you believe that they worship allah.
Yet, they have no free will.
So they are compelled to worship allah!
If they worship him, and they have no choice in the matter, as they don't have free will, then they are forced to worship allah.
Checkmate.
Now, if you want to argue that people need to be free to choose to worship, you have to explain why your allah makes people who don't have the choice.
Of course, you can say that they are not really 'women' but if that is the case, then how can we call them 'virgins'... virgins refers to women... are these 'women' actually robots?
they are not robots.
But they have no free will, and you deny that they are just like human women, so what are they then?
What pleasure can a man have from a robot?
plenty, havent you seen people buy all kinds of sex toys?
So are you admitting that they are robots now?
It seems that you have no choice but to admit that these 'women' must be women....]So you are stuck with the fact that your allah can make women without free will.
No that is your interpretation of it, and i will say it is a wrong one.
But you haven't given any reason why.
Here's the problem for you yet again: you believe that free will is necessary, yet your allah makes 'women' without free will.
That's a contradiction for your religion.
"Hitler burned people like Anne Frank, for that we call him evil.
"God" burns Anne Frank eternally. For that, theists call him 'good.'
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It would make sense that those who are created by God with no will, follow his will and never complain. Such do the angels do.
Then why do you need free will?
And be careful in answering.
I don't think they exist, alma. I'm not defending any imaginary women. We've explained this.
you seem to be defending their right for free will and complaining that they are slaves when in reality you don't believe they exist.
Again, for the hundreth time, we don't need for the 'virgins' to be real to discuss the moral implications of the idea.Can you possibly work this out?
Stop quoting from 10 posts ago.
Actually, that was in response to your last post to me. And you repeated the error a number of times in this thread.
I know what a Houri is. And the point is that they don't possess free will.So your 'allah' can create beings without free will.
So you must ask yourself why he makes you with free will
Allah creates all beings, some with free will others without.
Then you have a serious problem.
Your allah creates you with 'free will' But he didn't need to, even though your free will might lead you to hell. Allah could have just determined your actions, and made sure you went to heaven.
So your allah is ultimately responsible for whether you go to hell or not. He's the cause, not you.
So this makes your allah evil, as he alone is responsible for putting humans in the posssible position of going to hell.
But they are not human so that argument is invalidated.
No, it's not invalidated. In fact, you don't even seem to understand the argument.First, you claimed earlier that they had to enjoy the fact that they 'lived in paradise".
They live in paradise, but not a paradise for them.
Then you admit that they are not "living in paradise" in the sense that they are enjoying paradise. But prevsiously, you said this:
I doubt they mind being created to live in paradise forever.
So previously you implied that they DID enjoy paradise. Now you admit that they are NOT there to enjoy paradise. You're contradicting yourself all over the place.
So, they are slaves after all... created to serve men. They are not there for their own choice, to enjoy what they want, they are there to serve other people, rather than do what they choose to do.
Of course, you can say that they love what they do, as allah made them this way.
But with that answer, you have a serious, serious problem... for you must ask why allah didn't make all men that way, seeing as men with free will might end up in hell.
The point is that Alllah creates specific beings for specific tasks, reguardless of free will or not.
And this point refutes your religion. Your allah can create beings without free will. Yet he creates some with free will, even though some will go to hell. So your allah is evil, purposely creating people who burn in hell, when he does not need to do so.
I pointed out that while they 'resided there', that they didn't seem to possess the ability of free will, so it was questionable if they could 'enjoy' paradise like a person with free will could enjoy it.So, my question to you was: if these 'women' who are not really women, can serve your allah AND enjoy paradise, then why does your allah need to make you with free will?
Actually I don't know whether they enjoy paradise, Neither do you.
Again, you have a serious problem understanding hypotheticals.
We are discussing the CLAIMS of islam. We don't need to accept them as literally true to discuss their moral implications.
So you have to ask yourself why your 'god' needs to create you with free will.
I went over this a lot of times already. you have free will to decide right from wrong. God sent humans revelations many times to explain to them what is right and wrong.You have free will to chose your path, paradise or hell.
Right. You have to have free will to choose your own path.
But your allah can also make people without free will, who automatically go to paradise, and automatically enjoy what they do, like "houris"
So your allah is fully responsible for the fact that you can go to hell.
So your allah is responsible for the fact that anyone goes to hell.
So your allah is evil.
You see, there's a contradiction here... ]To actually 'live in paradise' one would need to have the choice to enjoy what one wishes to enjoy. Right?And be free from being forced to serve some role for another, right?
Again this argument is going nowhere because you do not know if they enjoy paradise or not.
We are discussing hypotheticals, based on your claims for Islam.
You didn't answer the questions. I will ask them again:To actually 'live in paradise' one would need to have the choice to enjoy what one wishes to enjoy. Right?
I just answered you, what you can't read or something. Paradise are AWARDED to the believers.
You didn't answer the question, what, you can't read or something?
The question asked if it was necessary to have free will in order to enjoy paradise. You didn't answer that question. Is it necesary to have free will to enjoy paradise?
Can you get it now?
In fact, you are still struggling with hypotheticals....So let me review the case before you yet again:
You are arguing that your god can create beings without free will.
But you must also argue that man needs free will.
So you are going to contradict yourself. You're going to argue that free will is necessary, and yet, not necessary....
But you aren't able to realize that yet.
In fact, you might never ever catch on to the problem.
I told you some beings have free will others don't. What is so hard for you to understand about this??
Actually, you first told me this in this very response (you're only repeating this within this very same post!), so you can't act as if I am not paying attention to something I haven't even read yet!
And what makes your ridiculous complaint even more ridiculous is that you're not answering anyway!: if your allah can make beings without free will, that automatically go to paradise, then you have to admit that it is your allah who is responsible for sending his own creation to hell.
I never said free will is necessary, i don't think the mountains have freewill to move where they want, they are forced by tectonic plates.
You're confused, only sentient beings can have free will. Free will has to do with people, not things.
"Hitler burned people like Anne Frank, for that we call him evil.
"God" burns Anne Frank eternally. For that, theists call him 'good.'
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Fuck you
People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.
Women are not mistreating themselves here. Have you deliberately blocked out what is happening in muslim Africa were millions of women are dying of aids !?
American women are not demeaned.
muslim women are demeaned.
How is this of any concern to you?
It’s none of your business that women are doing things you disprove of. You do not and will not set the standards here.
LOL sexual “tools”? lol You seemed to be a very confused individual. It is islam that uses women as “tools”
People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.
interesting being a man whore... ok
Pronunciation: 'wu-m&-"nIz
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): -ized; -izing
transitive verb : to make effeminate
intransitive verb : to pursue casual sexual relationships with multiple women
- womanizer noun
1. to make effeminate.
–verb (used without object)
2. to pursue or court women habitually.
Also, especially British, wom?an?ise.
feminize? so like men not being hard asses and deciding to be human? or is it a bad thing to have women qualities? what does that mean for women? hmm qualities which we say women are supposed to have, I wonder who said those are qualities for women and who said those others are qualities for men.
Or are you talking about men wanting to date women?
HAHAH you just said you don't tell them what to wear. Now you tell me you tell them to cover nipples??
I really don’t care what they do as long as they aren’t hurting people. Boobies don’t hurt people sorry. (Note my further comments on this)
Thats why I pointed it out. remember how I saying shit isn't perfect
I'm not allowed to walk around with my dick hanging out either. I don't really know what to make of societies contradictions, but I'll keep my pants on.
But there is a difference between a nudist and showing ankle or shoulder
I guess I should have been clearer here, society is what tells us what is ok to wear. I still think its arbitrary, but its not like I get the final word on society.
I was saying we(society because I think as myself as a part of society) tells them they can wear what they want. (Then) However we also tell them no no to nipple, ass, and vagina. A note on ass, ass cheeks seem to be ok to most people.
to late, but try not to run with my comment on society like you to with other things
USA doesn't have the best of records when it comes to civil rights. However, does that have ANYTHING to do with the sexism of islam?
I never said it said in the quran that it's okay to mistreat women. That was someone else. I based my arguments off of the scripture you provided and the website.
Please just answer me. The koran depicts women as objects, as "prizes" for the men. How is this not misogynistic? How is this not treating women as objects to be "utilized"?
I'm not fighting for any rights. Why can't you see that? I'm pointing out the misogyny that is BLATANTLY APPARENT in the religion of islam. Like I said, if an author wrote a book, based on NO REAL PEOPLE but had sexist awful shit in it, I would call them sexist. Old episodes of Star Trek are sexist. Enjoyable to watch? Sure, but I would shudder to meet a person whose ideas about women were based on Star Trek. (come to think of it I think I've met a few at comiccons....*shudder*)
On the conversion of women, well, I can't speak for them, as I am not every woman. But plenty of women are born-again too, and that's also a religion that's hardly woman friendly. And women often are the ones performing female genital mutilation on their own young daughters and neices. Humans do fucked up shit. I can't explain it.
I'm not "identifying" with them. They take the form of women do they not? These woman not-woman slavegirls? The fact that they look like women, act like women(but not disobedient, LOL), and are basically sex slaves to men in "paradise", is sexist. If you can't see that, then I don't know how we can explain it to you. It's not the "imaginary slave girl virgins" that we're arguing for, it's arguing against the mindset that would find this a desirable thing to have.
Um, actually my country was founded on killing furry animals to make hats. I don't know what country you are in, America, I suppose...... and besides, who says you HAVE to follow what your country was founded on? If Australia had done that.....well, let's just say I wouldn't be visiting there any time soon.
How is sex mistreating oneself? Protected sex IS the way to go though. Hell, married people have unprotected sex all the time, is THAT okay? And men can catch diseases too.... Besides, does marriage wave a magic wand that deletes any diseases a person has? If you marry a guy with a disease he still has it even if you get married. Hell, I dunno why I'm even arguing these points, noone is technically free as long as there's a government. That's why a lot of people are Libertarians and anarchists. I like my government a lot though, so I'm willing to live here. At least I am free to have UNMARRIED sex with my boyfriend without getting lashed, or stoned.
Besides, this only proves that women DO do things that damage themselves, you just refuted your "why would women convert to islam if it was bad to women?" argument .(Not that I think having sex is bad, but YOU apparently do.)
Okay. Yeah, the news media is sexist. Yeah, the music industry is sexist. No argument from me here. The companies in your country DO sell sex. Because sex sells. I dislike it as much as you. Noone wants to have to feel like they meet a certain standard of beauty, or thinness, or nakedness. It sucks. But there are a lot of organizations against it, Christian and feminist and so on, tirelessly working to get rid of these things in our society. Me? I hate it, but not as much as I value free speech and freedom of expression. As an artist, I enjoy the hell out of drawing naked women. It's fun and they look good.
*shrugs*
And noone selling sex in America uses religion to justify their treatment of women... Hmmm......
Besides, pointing out sexism somewhere else does not exuse the sexism in the religion of Islam.
You missed one of my previous questions but it's a long-ish thread now, so I'll re-ask it.
What do you say about women who "need to be protected" from their husbands who beat them or mistreat them? Do you have the "authority", as you put it, to step in and protect a woman who was married to another man?
hahaha, really?? I think ive read enough history to know about that.
Actually it does, don't think that you americans or athiests are the most fair and moral society, because you are not.
you have no right criticizing other people's religion or cultures where yours is so backward.
The Future of the World and the United States can be summed up in one verse:
Quran 61:9
{ He it is Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islâmic Monotheism) to make it victorious over all (other) religio
Husbands who mistreat women in islam are not reguarded to as good muslims, the best amoung us are those who treat their wives with kindness.
If a man mistreats his wife and fails to giver her her rights, she may take it to a religious leader of the community or divorce him under shari'a law.
Her Mahram who is her brother, father, or son can step in and protect her. The woman should be helped and protected by the family, not only the husband.
In cases where she doesn't have a mahram, then she can go to a religious leader and he will settle the dispute, in private.
Islam does not encourage bad marriages and treating eachother unjustly.
The Future of the World and the United States can be summed up in one verse:
Quran 61:9
{ He it is Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islâmic Monotheism) to make it victorious over all (other) religio
For fuck's sake I can't believe I'm reading this shit.
Holy books like the Bible and Quran can, by taking out of context, misquoting, emphasizing certain words, choosing specific translations, and looking only for what you want to find, be construed to say whatever you want it to say.
All of you are wasting your time, atheist and theist alike, if you are trying to use the words of holy books to attack each other. I have no idea how you haven't figured this out yet.
Actually to be honest muslim countries have the lowest HIV AIDS disease cause we don't fornicate with each other like animals.
American women think they are free, but in reality they are held bondage by the influence of society on them. kids not even at high school wearing skirts, teenage pregnancy, the peer pressure to look hot. This is what all your society is influencing the young minds.
Average age of first Internet exposure to pornography 11 years old
Largest consumer of Internet pornography 12 - 17 age group
15-17 year olds having multiple hard-core exposures 80%
8-16 year olds having viewed porn online 90% (most while doing homework)
7-17 year olds who would freely give out home address 29%
7-17 year olds who would freely give out email address 14%
Childrens' character names linked to thousands of porn links 26 (Including Pokeman and Action Man)
http://internet-filter-review.toptenreviews.com/internet-pornography-statistics.html
really sick statistics, really sick.
ALMALHAMAH wrote:
almost all the women you see on tv wear provacitive clothing to intice men, and the companies in america exploit women and sex for profit.
Notice how you didn't debate it you decided to change the subject.
This concerns me when you think you have the most civil and righteous culture of freedom and free thought, look how freedom can sometimes lead to corruption and corrosion of a society.
If i have to go to school with them it is my business, and if that's the way you want to argue how are muslim women your business?
Demeaning women, as in what a womanizer would do.
Go to a party or a club and see what all the men there are interested in. Only one thing.
The Future of the World and the United States can be summed up in one verse:
Quran 61:9
{ He it is Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islâmic Monotheism) to make it victorious over all (other) religio
Actually to be honest muslim countries have the lowest HIV AIDS disease cause we don't fornicate with each other like animals.
American women think they are free, but in reality they are held bondage by the influence of society on them. kids not even at high school wearing skirts, teenage pregnancy, the peer pressure to look hot. This is what all your society is influencing the young minds.
Average age of first Internet exposure to pornography 11 years old
Largest consumer of Internet pornography 12 - 17 age group
15-17 year olds having multiple hard-core exposures 80%
8-16 year olds having viewed porn online 90% (most while doing homework)
7-17 year olds who would freely give out home address 29%
7-17 year olds who would freely give out email address 14%
Childrens' character names linked to thousands of porn links 26 (Including Pokeman and Action Man)
http://internet-filter-review.toptenreviews.com/internet-pornography-statistics.html
really sick statistics, really sick.
ALMALHAMAH wrote:
almost all the women you see on tv wear provacitive clothing to intice men, and the companies in america exploit women and sex for profit.
Notice how you didn't debate it you decided to change the subject.
This concerns me when you think you have the most civil and righteous culture of freedom and free thought, look how freedom can sometimes lead to corruption and corrosion of a society.
If i have to go to school with them it is my business, and if that's the way you want to argue how are muslim women your business?
Demeaning women, as in what a womanizer would do.
Go to a party or a club and see what all the men there are interested in. Only one thing.
The Future of the World and the United States can be summed up in one verse:
Quran 61:9
{ He it is Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islâmic Monotheism) to make it victorious over all (other) religio
No as us being something doesn't mean you are not something. Also I made it a point to show how we aren't perfect and there are things I have problems with. Almost all Americans think our country has problems with almost everything. Does this mean its shit? No, it means the people can't agree what is most fair or moral.
First a person's society can only reflect the person so much. Do you think I want god on my money or gay people banned from marriage just because some religious fuck bags decided everyone should have their restrictions?
BTW you just called a super power backwards...
You know I just realized something, should have saw it sooner, but you turned this argument over the US and not Islam. I am really ashamed of myself...
Anyway are people going back to the original topic?
Uh... everybody knows this. It's not a secret. I'm glad you read some history though. Now, having taken that, I think you should enroll in Not changing the subject 101.
I have the right to criticize whatever I want. Furthermore, I am not American. Burn.
No, no, no. You do. Your the one who needs to look at it more abstractly. Not me. You.
You're the one who's looking at this concretely. You're the one having a problem understanding that we can discuss the moral implications of a claim, without accepting that the claim itself is true.
You're the one having this problem.
Not me.
You.
Here, let me help.
Go look in the mirror.
See the pimply faced goon looking back at you? That's you. And that's the guy who having trouble looking at this discussion abstractly. You're the one who can't figure out that we can discuss the moral implications in your claim without accepting the claim as literally true.
You. Not me.
Got it now?
Next, we can help you figure out which is your ass, and which is your elbow. But let's not go too fast...
Again, for the hundreth time, we don't need for the 'virgins' to be real to discuss the moral implications of the idea.
Can you possibly work this out?
I know what a Houri is. And the point is that they don't possess free will.
So your 'allah' can create beings without free will.
So you must ask yourself why he makes you with free will
No, it's not invalidated. In fact, you don't even seem to understand the argument.
First, you claimed earlier that they had to enjoy the fact that they 'lived in paradise".
I pointed out that while they 'resided there', that they didn't seem to possess the ability of free will, so it was questionable if they could 'enjoy' paradise like a person with free will could enjoy it.
So, my question to you was: if these 'women' who are not really women, can serve your allah AND enjoy paradise, then why does your allah need to make you with free will?
So you have to ask yourself why your 'god' needs to create you with free will.
Then, once you answer that question, once you decide that free will is necessary, you have to then go back to your "houris" and explain again, why they don't need free will, while it's necessary for you to have it...
You see, there's a contradiction here...
You didn't answer the questions. I will ask them again:
To actually 'live in paradise' one would need to have the choice to enjoy what one wishes to enjoy. Right?
And be free from being forced to serve some role for another, right?
No, no, no. No, you are incorrect. I'm staying right on the point I've been building for several posts. The problem isn't that I'm off course, it's that you aren't able to follow the point in the first place.
In fact, you are still struggling with hypotheticals....
So let me review the case before you yet again:
You are arguing that your god can create beings without free will.
But you must also argue that man needs free will.
So you are going to contradict yourself. You're going to argue that free will is necessary, and yet, not necessary....
But you aren't able to realize that yet.
In fact, you might never ever catch on to the problem.
That's another contradiction. If everything is predestined, then there cannot be free will. The concepts are mutually exclusive.
Pull off the argument?! There's no need to argue this at all. Predestination is the opposite of freedom of choice, by definition.
If something is predestined, then you have no choice in the matter.
The concepts are contradictory.
No. Again, you are very, very, very confused. This has nothing to do with me,. The point of the argument is to demonstrate that your claim is contradictory. It has nothing to do with my beliefs.
I have no goal here, other than to demonstrate that your claims are contradictory.
No kidding. And yet you can't see the problem.
You are very, very, very lost.
I'm not arguing that there is free will, or there isn't free will.
I'm showing you that your own argument is contradictory. You argue that you need free will, yet you also argue that your god creates beings without free will. Then you argue that every thing is predestined, but that there is still free will!
So you not only contradict yourself, you contradict your contradictions!
Yet your 'allah' creates Houri's without free will, and compels them to serve men.
Of course, you can say that they are not really 'women' but if that is the case, then how can we call them 'virgins'... virgins refers to women... are these 'women' actually robots?
What pleasure can a man have from a robot?
It seems that you have no choice but to admit that these 'women' must be women....
So you are stuck with the fact that your allah can make women without free will.
I asked this before:
If they have no free will, then they are slaves according to your worldview. Robots. So how can it truly be paradise for them?
If they can exist without free will, then why do you have it?
You responded by saying that they are not humans. So, then how can you say you are going to get 72 virgins if they are not humans?
Can you make up your mind? Are they humans or not? If they are not humans, then why would a man want them? And if they are humans, then how can they exist without free will?
Excuse me? You're the one who believes that martyrs will earn 72 VIRGINS, what's the point of a VIRGIN if sex isn't involved? Why even mention that they are virgins?
PS Can you answer the rest of the question?
"Hitler burned people like Anne Frank, for that we call him evil.
"God" burns Anne Frank eternally. For that, theists call him 'good.'
There's slavery in the Islamic world now.
The western world was the first place where slavery was ended.
Interesting that you didn't mention that the KKK was a terrorist organization. Is there a reason why you didn't want to bring up terrorist organizations?
What about Islamic racist laws and groups like Al Queda, who exist to terrorize humans?
Do I need to go on?
Muslims call for the destruction of Israel, and hatred of Jews, is far more sick and immoral than anything you'll find in the western world.
It's only in the western world where people are considered to be equal. Your people treat everyone, even including your own women, like second class citizens. And you treat some people: the jews, like non humans.
Currently you exploit your own women as cheap labor.
Mexican workers are not exploited. They enter the country freely, because they can make more money as 'slave laborers" in the US than they can in mexico. If they don't like it, they can stop traveling thousand of miles and breaking the law to enter the country to here in the first place.
Actually, it does. The western world does set the bar for morality. That's reality.
Here's the proof: millions upon millions of muslims come to live in America. If their homelands were so much better, why are they leaving in droves? Why is it that millions upon millions of people still seek to come to the US?
The reality is that your post is a long winded disadvantageous comparison error. Yes, america has problems, but it's leaps and bounds ahead of the Islamic world when it comes to treating humans with decency. You left that minor detail out.
"Hitler burned people like Anne Frank, for that we call him evil.
"God" burns Anne Frank eternally. For that, theists call him 'good.'
I'm betting that you've never been to either...
"Hitler burned people like Anne Frank, for that we call him evil.
"God" burns Anne Frank eternally. For that, theists call him 'good.'
The point!
It would make sense that those who are created by God with no will, follow his will and never complain. Such do the angels do.
you seem to be defending their right for free will and complaining that they are slaves when in reality you don't believe they exist.
Stop quoting from 10 posts ago.
Allah creates all beings, some with free will others without.
He created you with free will to either do good or bad. You either worship him or live a life of falsehood and temporary enjoyment.
They live in paradise, but not a paradise for them. A paradise for the human beings and jinns who believe in Allah and worship him. The angels work in both heaven and hell and do many duties, they do not have free will nor a gender.
The point is that Alllah creates specific beings for specific tasks, reguardless of free will or not.
Actually I don't know whether they enjoy paradise, Neither do you.
I went over this a lot of times already. you have free will to decide right from wrong. God sent humans revelations many times to explain to them what is right and wrong.
You have free will to chose your path, paradise or hell.
Nobody knows about the houris if they enjoy paradise or not.
Again this argument is going nowhere because you do not know if they enjoy paradise or not. and you have no proof they do.
I just answered you, what you can't read or something. Paradise are AWARDED to the believers.
First off, the point of this thread is for LEFTOFLARY to prove his accusation that the Quran and shri'a condones rape as a form of punishment for crimes, which he has failed to do.
I told you some beings have free will others don't. What is so hard for you to understand about this??
I never said free will is necessary, i don't think the mountains have freewill to move where they want, they are forced by tectonic plates.
The Future of the World and the United States can be summed up in one verse:
Quran 61:9
{ He it is Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islâmic Monotheism) to make it victorious over all (other) religio